Newbie 2096 | Nathan For You | Endgame

[Somnus]

Somnus, did you have a PR read on him?

No. Apparently I'm quite good at PR hunting as mafia (I have either killed or correctly rolecopped a PR in all 3 of my scum games Night 1) but I wasn't concerned with trying to find a PR as town. All I was interested in was reading people as town or mafia.

[Somnus]

VCA is going to be difficult in general because of lack of VCs and sheer amount of wagons.

Bella, talk to me about Somnus

"Don't think about it, guys. Ignore the evidence in front of you. Trust me. It doesn't matter. Anyway, look over here!"

[Somnus]

Corwin, where are you at right now?

It's Somnus/cheap today. Cheap took it back to -1 and went looking for buttons to push to get the hammer, it's a hell of a lot scummier than you hammering.

Somnus has been tunneling you all game for reasons that still aren't entirely clear to me, and I want him to make them clear.

I guess it doesn't matter if he PR read the slot or not, but if he did I want to know why he didn't speak up, and if he didn't I want to know why he thinks your vote is anywhere near as bad as Cheap coming in at the last minute to push it.

Somnus burying his vote and disappearing is the scum you aren’t seeing

Shit if I was scum while a town!vasex's was doing all this, I'd be lurking and just waiting this out until town mislims.

I think this is

exactly

what happened.

I made it abundantly clear both on Friday and Saturday that I had another gaming event going on all throughout the weekend that would be occupying most of my time, and at best, I would only be able to briefly pop in. Several people have since ignored that or pretended to forget that I mentioned that on at least two occasions (we went 4-0, for whatever it's worth).

I'd be curious to hear how you went from "Somnus is obvious town and I don't know why anyone is voting for them" to THIS after seeing the player who lock-towned me get quick-hammered presumably by 2 scum and 3 village idiots, and then seeing the other player who had me as one of, if not their top town-read, night-killed. Great scum-play by Somnus, huh? Much brain. And just when I thought you at least had a little bit of a grasp of what was going on in this game.

[Somnus]

You were scum reading me Day One, no?

Also, Somnus was pushing Rad for a long time without any basis for the read. Before switching onto me, without any basis for his read.

Wanna eliminate Somnus with me?

You literally spent the entire day trying to immediately push through any wagon except Rad, cut off town information when we could have used up to 10 days to gather information and make better reads, and then quick-hammered a player who by Monday was so painfully town it wasn't even funny...and that player flipped PR. And then claimed that more wagons would be harmful for town. If Vassex was a policy vote, you're that times 10. I can't even hold it against you assuming you're scum. I don't blame you for taking advantage of how laughably clueless this town is.

In the unlikely event that you're town in this game, I can say without exageration that it is the single worst individual townie performance I have seen from a player since signing up for this site...and I read a LOT of games. I refuse to believe that that's the case.

It's less scummy than Somnus and Cheap.

And yet almost nothing has happened since your vote for Vasex and claiming I was obvious town except that you saw the two people who town-read me the hardest and scum-read BlueBlood the hardest both die

[Somnus]

I could elim Corwin today.

How you feel about that, Somnus?

Not interested. My vote stays on you. I made it clear on Day 1 that my own personal survival wasn't my top priority in this game and I meant it. To anyone who thought I was bluffing, better luck next time. You have no idea how badly I wanted to be killed Night 1. But you will.

I'm done interacting with bullshit. If you're mafia, congrats on somehow fooling most of the town when the obvious is right in front of them. No sarcasm here. Legit props and it would make zero sense for me to hold it against you. If you're town, you lost this game on Day 1.

Flip this open-wolf or gamethrowing town slot or get me out of this game. Not an act. Not a bluff. I'll gladly welcome either.

[Cheapside]

You seem to have missed my point, cheap: none of your focus was on me yesterday. Reads don't just flip overnight, unless there was a surprising elim (there wasn't) or a surprising nk - this nk was a tad surprising but actually the slot was super town by the end of the day.

Firstly, reads and focus don't necessarily align D1. This is basic stuff. I'll address the reads thing, but the focus might be just as good. Yeah, I townread you less than ten pages in. Twenty pages, two readthroughs of the thread and a close look at your ISO later, I felt your contributions were less townie. I'm sorry I missed your point here, but if your point is that my tentative reads at the start of D1 don't align with my considered reads at the start of D2, possibly I missed your point because your point was kinda stupid?

And if you think my writing doesn't flow conversationally... I proofread and change what I've written before posting, rather than treating this like Discord. So you're going to see that in almost every post I make.

Regarding Somnus' scum read, same question to you Cheap - why is a particular style of posting scummy (hint, it's not). Secondly, his 'dat timing though' is again off the basis of Scum!Rad defending Scum!BBT which as I am sure you understand, I have a problem understanding.

Find something in Somnus' read that isn't Rad is scum because BBT is scum and vice versa.

If he has given reasons, find reasons for his scum read on me. You're basically saying Somnus had a dubious start, has scum reads with weak reasoning and he's your top town read. This read is super forced, you're clutching at straws to town read Somnus and I'm not sure what it means.

Stop suggesting I think Somnus's reasons are good. I think he gave them, and you're saying he didn't. I don't think they're good, or Somnus' play is good, I've stated this repeatedly. I just think it's new town play.

This is not forced at all. You haven't actually asked anything about my tr on Somnus, a lot of which is based on tone. You're asking why I don't have the same thought processes as you, when you're not actually reading Somnus' posts.

I literally showed you a reason he read rad as scum that has nothing to do with you. And if he actually thought the thing Vasex found might be a scumslip, he would have a reason to believe you were scum that had nothing to do with Rad. Again, I don't think any of his reasons have value, but he gave them. Why is this difficult for you to understand? Do you just want me to post a bunch defending Somnus?

[Bellaphant]

My point is your play should show some flow overall. This means your words match your actions and you at least have an internal narrative. You don't have a good answer for 'cheap used 50% of his posts to be on leading wagons', or 'cheaps' reads don't even look convincing over a paragraph, let alone a game', which is not a posting style issue. It's funny to me that instead I've managed to reduce the great editor to 'kinda silly'.

You've not engaged with the core of what I said since we started having this chat.

[Bellaphant]

@bbt, I'll respond later. This game is no fun.

[Somnus]

@bbt, I'll respond later. This game is no fun.

Couldn't agree more.

[Nero Cain]

Vote Count 2.01

BlueBloodedToffee (1):

Somnus

Somnus (1):

BlueBloodedToffee

Cheapside (1):

Bellaphant

Not Voting (4):

Corwinoid, Cheapside, Rad, whiskey delta

With 7 alive, it's 4 to eliminate.

Deadline for Day 2 is June 15

Deadline Timer:

(expired on 2022-06-16 14:15:00)

[Rad]

I think Cheap is the easy vote here, so I'm suspicious of it. I also relate to his posts really easily, especially his vote at 727.

@whiskey absolutely nailed the read on vasex's motivation, so I'm suspicious of him. It's one thing to determine it after a flip, but it's another to be that confident and correct before a flip. Also he noted that he'd be cool with hammering on policy, didn't do that, got called out on it, and then backpedaled. I dunno, confusing at the very least.

I think Corwinoid had the weakest openly stated reason for the vote. No one cared about the lie anymore. I never cared about it. Only Somnus did that I can remember and he seemed to have gotten past it.

I still don't know what BBT's reasoning was. I asked him to clarify, vasex asked him to clarify, he suggested he had already clarified. I dunno what to think about that.

I think a good start here is to reread Spartan's posts. I'll try to do that by the time I go to sleep tonight. I don't think we need to rush a vote here.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Of course. Had to get Vasxex and Spartan out of the way first. I knew what you were doing the last time I interacted with you, and I called it. I got bored listening to bullshit, had things to do, and called the pivot which promptly took place almost immediately. You still had to leave that doubt about the Somnus slot open for Day 2 though. You didn't have the votes with Vassex or Spartan still alive. Pretty basic stuff for any townie with a pulse to understand at this point.

Go back and look at Vassex and Spartan's strongest town read, folks. Go back and look at who they were scum-reading. Go back and look at the fact that BlueBlooded went from trying to eliminate Spartan after 7 posts and a few hours after replacing in to pretending to town-read him.

Why are you acting as if you were some huge town read for Spartan? You're spinning a few things from thread in a very specific way. You're acting like I was Vasex's biggest scum read - he scum read EVERYBODY who voted for him. I can find posts where he says I might not be scum and where he changes mind on his town reads. He was all over the place.

Tell me, why does Scum!BBT unvote Vasex when he is at L-1?

This is now the 2nd person trying to throw shade at me based on the NK. They can't both be scum because that's way too obvious a plan to start the day with. Someone help me.

Trying to paint me as scum because my read evolved on a player is genuinely hilarious. Look guys, he thought he was scum and then changed his mind and thought he was town! How scummy is that!

Also, the pivot you called in 709 was supposed to act as a deterrent because you knew I had voted and pushed you all the way back in 481 (even earlier before the actual vote). Don't try to act like this push on you has come out of nowhere.

How great is it going to be if this is BlueBlood openly protecting his partner and then throwing in a random townie to protect as well to try and make it look not suspicious?

Oh, I see. Am I scum with Cheap, now? Doesn't matter who I'm scum with, right? Just so long as you can try to get me out of this game. Is Rad town now?

"Don't think about it, guys. Ignore the evidence in front of you. Trust me. It doesn't matter. Anyway, look over here!"

What evidence? Do you have some VCA thoughts to share?

I'd be curious to hear how you went from "Somnus is obvious town and I don't know why anyone is voting for them" to THIS after seeing the player who lock-towned me get quick-hammered presumably by 2 scum and 3 village idiots, and then seeing the other player who had me as one of, if not their top town-read, night-killed.

This presumption from Somnus about wagon composition is worth keeping in mind if he flips red. It would have been VERY EASY for scum to avoid that Vasex wagon and let it go through.

Again, show me where Spartan had you as such a strong town read. I lobe how you're acting as if scum killing someone to make someone else look bad is entirely impossible. Or that they were killed for being one of the most widely town read players.

You literally spent the entire day trying to immediately push through any wagon except Rad, cut off town information when we could have used up to 10 days to gather information and make better reads, and then quick-hammered a player who by Monday was so painfully town it wasn't even funny...and that player flipped PR. And then claimed that more wagons would be harmful for town. If Vassex was a policy vote, you're that times 10. I can't even hold it against you assuming you're scum. I don't blame you for taking advantage of how laughably clueless this town is.

I mean, I tried to wagon Rad so I'm not sure what you're talking about? I spent Day One pushing wagons because that's what you're supposed to do on D1. That is where you get the most information possible for town. There is, of course, a limit to how many wagons you can push before it becomes more beneficial to scum, which is why I didn't want any new wagons forming towards the end of the Day.

Vasex was never a policy vote for me, I gave my reasons for scum reading him.

If he has given reasons, find reasons for his scum read on me. You're basically saying Somnus had a dubious start, has scum reads with

weak reasoning

and he's your top town read. This read is super forced, you're clutching at straws to town read Somnus and I'm not sure what it means.

Stop suggesting I think Somnus's reasons are good. I think he gave them, and you're saying he didn't. I don't think they're good, or Somnus' play is good, I've stated this repeatedly. I just think it's new town play.

This is not forced at all. You haven't actually asked anything about my tr on Somnus, a lot of which is based on tone. You're asking why I don't have the same thought processes as you, when you're not actually reading Somnus' posts.

I literally showed you a reason he read rad as scum that has nothing to do with you. And if he actually thought the thing Vasex found might be a scumslip, he would have a reason to believe you were scum that had nothing to do with Rad. Again, I don't think any of his reasons have value, but he gave them. Why is this difficult for you to understand? Do you just want me to post a bunch defending Somnus?

I literally say right here (in italics, bold and underlined to make it abundantly clear) that you say he had weak reasons. I'm saying, that literally makes 0 sense. You're town reading someone who, in your own words, had a dubious start and has scum reads with weak reasoning. So WHERE does the town read come from because the reasons you gave are reasons to SCUM READ someone.

In 816 I literally ask you to help me understand your read on Somnus. The one reason you showed me for Rad was that 'Rad was taking notes like Somnus did as scum.' You acknowledge this reasoning is poor and yet use it as justification for a read? Again, I'm confused. The 'scum-slip' had everything to do with me because a) it was me who posted it and b) Somnus voted Rad on the presumption that scum!Rad had posted in thread to defend scum!BBT from said scum slip.

Again, it's not a problem understanding you think Somnus gave weak reasons for a read. My problem is how these weak reasons don't translate into a scum read because that's literally what scum do. They have to force scum reads on people they know are town and so they generally have weak, poorly thought out reasons. BUT YOU'RE NOT SEEING THIS?!?!?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Anything on Somnus, Rad?

Also, what do you think Bella's reasoning for being on the Vasex wagon was?

[Bellaphant]

@rad, explain the cheap thoughts to me? Coz I had a fairly irrational but strong tr on them at the end of the day but then I looked their votes, and then their reads post.

Looking at the reasoning on the votes on vasex is probably somewhat worth it.

[Rad]

Anything on Somnus, Rad?

Also, what do you think Bella's reasoning for being on the Vasex wagon was?

Well, seemed like Bella had a minor scum read on Vasex, and she started the wagon. Feels more like a pressure move that turned into an elim.

I need to catch up on somnus's d2, and now your post about him. Will do that throughout today.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I was also scum reading Vasex. I asked you what Bella's reasoning was for voting him.

[Rad]

I was also scum reading Vasex. I asked you what Bella's reasoning was for voting him.

I felt Bella's initial reasoning was pretty clear in 506, so I'm not going to reiterate anything beyond that. Reads as minor scum read to me.

I think what's more important is Bella staying on the wagon when the wagon became legit. I'm still thinking about that and haven't come to any conclusion. If Bella can answer that, I'd appreciate it.

I never got that read from you, but I feel your play has been super townie (so the opposite read of how cheap and somnus are reading you). Or you're absolutely dominating as scum. Occam's razoring this one and leaning town on you regardless of the lack of clarity on your vote.

[whiskey delta]

Quick thoughts before work:

Cheapside/BBT not M/M. If Cheapside is the scum then he played BBT like a toy. Hammering doesn’t make him scum but it was bad play. If BBT is scum it would be for stuff like Spartans said (running up wagons to get PR reads)

I like Somnus more today. His post about how the NK would be dumb for him makes sense but I’d be careful with this narrative simply because scum control/manipulate that.

@Rad - sometimes I have my moments. I’ve seen stuff like that plenty of times and considering the (Town btw) meta Corwin brought in for his scum case made it pretty clear to me what was happening. I stand by what I said. I would have hammered Vasex AT DEADLINE if he were still there simply because his play was going to be a problem. I didn’t mean right then and there. I’m not mad the player is gone but I am pissed he was selfish enough to take that elim without claiming and then proceeding to post for several more pages anyway.

@Cheapside - can you explain your read on me more? Also, irt Somnus - my read on D1 was based on them showing what I thought were obvious signs of irritability. Imagine that you’re on you’re fourth or fifth (?) game and have never rolled Town before. Suddenly this time you did. Would you be happy or mad about that? It’s odd to me that we have the same substance for a read but opposite conclusions. Am I wrong or do you just know better?

Also, if you are familiar at all with MU then you know your posts complaining about the game state would probably earn you some SRs. IME players who are mad because others post a lot are typically scum. A busy thread is a hard one to hide and blend into.

[Corwin/Cheapside] looks good to me right now. I’ll try to reread some stuff later tonight.

[Rad]

@rad, explain the cheap thoughts to me? Coz I had a fairly irrational but strong tr on them at the end of the day but then I looked their votes, and then their reads post.

Looking at the reasoning on the votes on vasex is probably somewhat worth it.

I like Cheap's play. I think it's townie. I don't like how he lurked into the d1 vote, but his reasoning rang so true to me in 727. And here in d2, without having to suffer through vasex spam, he's come out swinging. I like his posts. I'll read more into his actually d2 content when I can later today.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

447

Also, 469, 471, 545 culminating in 562 and there are some reasons after this, too.

PEdit - @Rad

[BlueBloodedToffee]

That's good stuff from Whiskey.

[whiskey delta]

I think part of the problem that I have seen so far is that people are harping too much on what is good or not good content. Scum hide in the details. They are going to have reasons and make sure their logic is lined up nice and neat. Townies just have to be and eventually they figure it out or they don’t. Thread presence is a thing and tends to be more Town sided. I have very rarely ever seen players who can consistently out post and out pace the Town as scum

[Rad]

Thanks @BBT, those seem reasonable. TBF you do post a lot so it was hard for me to find a coherent reason. I appreciate you doing it for me

Similar reasoning to Bellas. I think it's fair.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Thanks @BBT, those seem reasonable. TBF you do post a lot so it was hard for me to find a coherent reason. I appreciate you doing it for me

Similar reasoning to Bellas. I think it's fair.

I was more making note that I had in fact produced the reasoning first and yet my position on the Vasex wagon seems questionable to some

[Cheapside]

Spoiler:

If he has given reasons, find reasons for his scum read on me. You're basically saying Somnus had a dubious start, has scum reads with

weak reasoning

and he's your top town read. This read is super forced, you're clutching at straws to town read Somnus and I'm not sure what it means.

Stop suggesting I think Somnus's reasons are good. I think he gave them, and you're saying he didn't. I don't think they're good, or Somnus' play is good, I've stated this repeatedly. I just think it's new town play.

This is not forced at all. You haven't actually asked anything about my tr on Somnus, a lot of which is based on tone. You're asking why I don't have the same thought processes as you, when you're not actually reading Somnus' posts.

I literally showed you a reason he read rad as scum that has nothing to do with you. And if he actually thought the thing Vasex found might be a scumslip, he would have a reason to believe you were scum that had nothing to do with Rad. Again, I don't think any of his reasons have value, but he gave them. Why is this difficult for you to understand? Do you just want me to post a bunch defending Somnus?

I literally say right here (in italics, bold and underlined to make it abundantly clear) that you say he had weak reasons. I'm saying, that literally makes 0 sense. You're town reading someone who, in your own words, had a dubious start and has scum reads with weak reasoning. So WHERE does the town read come from because the reasons you gave are reasons to SCUM READ someone.

In 816 I literally ask you to help me understand your read on Somnus. The one reason you showed me for Rad was that 'Rad was taking notes like Somnus did as scum.' You acknowledge this reasoning is poor and yet use it as justification for a read? Again, I'm confused. The 'scum-slip' had everything to do with me because a) it was me who posted it and b) Somnus voted Rad on the presumption that scum!Rad had posted in thread to defend scum!BBT from said scum slip.

Again, it's not a problem understanding you think Somnus gave weak reasons for a read. My problem is how these weak reasons don't translate into a scum read because that's literally what scum do. They have to force scum reads on people they know are town and so they generally have weak, poorly thought out reasons. BUT YOU'RE NOT SEEING THIS?!?!?

You're saying that in order for me to tr Somnus, I have to think his reads are reasonable. That's not my thought process. I just don't think he's particularly good at playing town yet. I might be wrong, he might be bad at playing scum after three games of it, or intentionally doing weird stuff to make people think he's town for the first time.

You have repeatedly suggested in 815 and 821 that Somnus didn't and wouldn't justify his reads at all, although you've switched to "he didn't give good arguments for his reads" in the post above. You're oblating me showing you that yes, Somnus did give reasons for his reads, with me citing those reads as a reason to tr him. The only reason I felt the need to demonstrate that Somnus did give (weak) justifications for his reads is your own posts here: 811, and 815. It's the reason I brought them up. Like I said, you never actually asked why I'm tr-ing Somnus, you just asked why I didn't sr him for the reasons you do.

You've misrepresenting me here quite a bit. We've gone from "How can you townread Somnus when he hasn't explained his reads?" to "How can you townread Somnus on the basis of these weak justifications you're showing me?" You've made me show you things in the thread, then claimed that I'm basing my read on them.

Regarding not sr-ing somnus on the basis of this stuff... you've townread people for bad reasoning,

literally in this game

. I'm not even doing that, I'm just NOT scumreading them for it. My tr on Somnus is because his posts seemed like genuine town irritation, rather than showing tone and behaviour someone with three+ games as mafia would actually try to show.

My point is your play should show some flow overall. This means your words match your actions and you at least have an internal narrative. You don't have a good answer for 'cheap used 50% of his posts to be on leading wagons', or 'cheaps' reads don't even look convincing over a paragraph, let alone a game', which is not a posting style issue. It's funny to me that instead I've managed to reduce the great editor to 'kinda silly'.

You've not engaged with the core of what I said since we started having this chat.

I like pressure D1. It's how I read people. Hence wagons. I'd be shocked if you hadn't encountered this.

'cheaps' reads don't even look convincing over a paragraph, let alone a game' is a value judgement, so I'll address the flow thing. If you're not convinced by my reads because they shift... I don't know what else I can say to you. What "flow" do you want when there are potentially dozens of pages between readslists? If you want to sr me because you need to see changes take place in real time, then policy elim me, because I'm not going to give you that.

will reply to whisky in a bit.