In post 998, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:I mean, I'd argue 2 out of 3 of Spartan's last posts were talking about Cheap!Scum as opposed to BBT!Scum but whatever. Doesn't fit the narrative so ignore again.
In post 1001, Corwinoid wrote:scum!Rad is not what I was getting at, I just want to know why he's thinking Bella
now
instead of BBT.
I read Bella scum and bbt town.
I'm sorry everyone has such a strong scum read on him while i don't. My read is town. If he's scum sure, he's totally townbinning me. I'm his little play toy. You guys have enough to flip him if cheap wants to. If he flips red im sure I will be under fire next but it is what it is. Not going to sit here and vote my town read that I feel has contributed well to the game.
I think scum is in Bella Corwin.
Tonight I'm going to read through all of bbt iso so I can refresh my view of him. I'll do that for Bella too actually. They have given plenty of content and are very difficult for me to understand why I read them how I do so I will sit down and really take a look at that.
I like whiskey's questions about bbt's behavior and plan on considering them as I read through his iso later.
So... going to give a blow-by-blow of my responses to the last five pages. I guess I'm choosing between a corwin elim and a BBT one... didn't get a huge amount of info on Rad, Whisky here, as they weren't under pressure. Irritating if they're deep cover scum, but not a great deal I can do there. Would have gone with BBT in a heartbeat at the start of the day, but Corwin did have one very weird post in 857.
Corwin's excuses seem plausible. Town reads shift, and he would have been very sympathetic with my vote on Vasex initially, as Vasex did the less than funny avatar stealing gag. Such a well-considered response would be weird for a scum capable of the slip-up Rad notes in 857, which was my main sr on him.
: would have been made with some confidence that I and probably a few other people too were willing to see an elim in BBT/Bella, so maybe a bit dramatic. Don't love the "flip me" stuff... people will if they want to, otherwise they won't. Agree with the Bella-won't-townread-BBT thing raising alarm bells, it's way for mafia to coordinate more safely.
Also, I don't consider anything a
solve
unless it's a mechanical solve. People are unpredictable and weird.
919 very obvious cherrypicking of the ISO. Spartan never claimed to have dropped their SR of BBT, and mostly mentioned him before the last two posts floating ideas about me and mq. If BBT town, play this bad doesn't justify their posting so much.
In post 924, Rad wrote:A bbt Bella scum team has dominated town so hard that I refuse to believe in it.
I mean, not really, BBT just posted a whole lot and Bella stayed in the background D1. It wouldn't astonish me, and it's hardly dominating. The two of them attacked my readslist hard at the start of the day, I told them their arguments were stupid, and they withdrew. If this is meant to be powerwolfing, it's very hedged.
Then again, if any scumteam were to dominate a game, it'd be one made of two SEs.
Spoiler: 38
BBT demonstrates actually reading the Spartan ISO, doesn't engage with the main idea that Spartan had a vote on him since mid-D1. Quibbles over whether Spartan named any other scumteams or had BBT/Bella as fixed... like yeah, Somnus doesn't strongly suggest otherwise. BBT misrepresenting, changing what's at stake.
"I don't feel like Spartan ended the day scum reading me."
Says Bella. Well, we can't directly tell from their ISO, so yeah, let's just throw that subjective judgement out there, it's interesting. These posts...
993 - "it wasn't many wagons, and anyway it was an accident" - pick one. 934 - "Why not cheap, they also voted x" - it's pretty clear from Somnus' posts that this is a Bella/BBT D2 behaviour thing they're thinking about. And I haven't exactly rolled with either of them D2, or pushed as aggressively as they have for an elim. So this is true but irrelevant, like a lot of Bella's observations.
More of this sort of thing... Bella looks like they're panicking a bit here, which is odd for town!Bella as BBT looks more like they're first on the chopping block for Somnus in any case. More "also cheap", which I guess is fair enough.
Hm. "wofom", "collataterol", "bsd"... Bella can usually spell. Pfp likely but written FAST in any case.
And then finally a cessation of engagement, presumably until Somnus responds, with 936.
Rad being aggressive, Whisky being unusally reasonable and ready to change their mind, especially for a strong mafia player. That last one disturbing, esp as whisky did suggest he was open to persuasion re: Somnus earlier, to me I think.
In post 949, whiskey delta wrote:I think back to D2 start where I am showing signs of going after Cheap/Corwin to which I received praise and TRs from BBT/Bella.
Town-binned.
Has anyone asked what reads these two actually have on each other? It’s the only question that really matters tbh.
I was about to ask bbt his thoughts on Bella just a few min ago but I backed off. Not sure why I did. I think I really don't want bbt to be scum and I don't think he'll have a great read on Bella which will push me more to him being scum...
So what about Bella??? Should we lim Bella???
WUT? Bella and not BBT? Going to keep a careful eye on this.
996 Misrepresentation. If anything, Spartan argued conversely at one point.
Ok, Rad finally explains why Bella. It's not a crazy reason.
Ah, Nero Cain. The novocaine that stops you killing your relatives. We've all been there.
Somnus' post, while containing some decent stuff, is melodramatic and involves a dubious identification of their own play with the outcome of the entire game. If I were to vote in Bella/BBT, it'd be more along the lines of whisky's "What if it just
is
what it looks like?". Dramatically mellower.
So before Somnus started all this, where I was was "Bella/BBT happy to lead the game D2, really don't like their play thus far but maybe this is just a very developed, somewhat suboptimal town game in one or both cases, need to have another look at their attack on me?"
Their responses haven't been great. But they also haven't been suprising. I mean, BBT very openly admits to doing dubious stuff like pushing wagons and shutting down discussion he doesn't like. I'm partial to doing openly scummy stuff myself, but not so much past D1. BBT goes for a very bullish, above the law, "I'm town's only hope" style, which I don't love but I know some very strong mafia players do have a penchant for. I think Bella's posts have been largely trifling, for an SE exuding that kind of calm competence. And their responses to Somnus have been the same way: BBT shooting out dozens of posts taking issue with any little thing and acting outraged that someone would sr him - HIM! Bella... pecking weakly about at small issues, then fading out behind BBT. So their responses to this haven't been inconsistent with the issues I've had with their game so far.
I have a bit of a tendency to OMGUS, at least in response to the more threatening pushes. So I didn't go through Bella/BBT's attack on my D2 reads for a while, because of the strong chance I'd immediately sr them. Having looked at it again though...
Here's the thing. The misrepresentations and shifting positions in their push on me, maybe that's just me reading too much into stuff. But what comes after is weird. They just stop speaking to me on page 35 after I defend my reads on Somnus and Bella. They declare I'm still in their scumpools with Somnus, say that Corwin is the common denominator, and readily put him at E-1. It's a total binary: from "pressure Cheapside and Somnus" to "elim Corwin". And they
leap
onto Corwin after Rad notices something genuinely quite dubious about corwin's posts... something "towns only hope" (821) apparently failed to see, for all their suspiscions about Corwin. Before, BBT's mostly been asking Corwin, Somnus and I why we won't vote for one another, but now, there's an actually decent reason to elim Corwin, and they're eager to have the day over sharpish.
Last edited by humaneatingmonkey on Wed Jun 15, 2022 8:45 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Of all tyrannies,a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end they do so with the approval of their own conscience.
Wooo cheap post, awesome. I read it, but I need more time tomorrow to think about it.
Tonight, I went through BBT. I didn't get a chance to read up on Bella yet. Instead, I read through BBT's ISO here and (gasp) I went through a few of his previous games. I even paused Twitch so I could really focus. They were from 2018. Interestingly, there's a ton of similarity.
This is how BBT posts. Town or scum, this is his style. Ignore the style aspect.
The types of questions he gave in his town games matched the types of questions he gave in his scum games. He does the same shit. "Why do you think this?" "Explain this for me" etc. He votes for someone immediately and tries to get stuff rolling. His meta difference here is hard to discern.
So here's some stuff I noticed about his scum play:
A scum BBT has no problems bussing his partner
A scum BBT likes to praise town for being town
A scum BBT has no issue putting in effort
I come out of this with a null read on BBT.
So where do I go from here?
I think I probably follow whiskey into battle. Whatever the fuck you want to do Whiskey, double your vote. And if you're currently not sure, cool, it's not on you, we'll figure it out.
Tomorrow I'll read Cheap's post again so I can think about it clearly. I'll catch up on whatever happened while I was asleep. And I'll try to read through Bella's ISO.
Umm, if anyone would like anything final from me, just let me know. I'll be in the corner crying.
You're a strong player, so briefly giving us your take on today will be helpful down the line if you flip green.
It's clear that me/somnus/corwin is your scumpool, but would be good to know which you judge most likely, or if Rad or Whisky have pinged you at all in their response to the Somnus thing.
(I know a lot of this is already in your ISO, but a post for posterity would prevent arguments about what you really meant).
I feel like I don't have anything really beneficial to add at the moment which is incredibly lame of me, but I'm running on fumes right now and desperately need to sleep. To whoever among us is around for Day 3, I think it would be wise to slow down and take as much of the time as we can, at the very least, to make things as uncomfortable for mafia as possible. VCA matters, but it's not a full clear for anyone.
I'm a strong player (is that why you're eliminating me?) What a strange sentence.
Scum is in Somnus/Corwin/Cheap. I'm absolutely convinced of it. I started doubting my town read on Rad with how quickly he was onside with Somnus' BS case but then he does things like #1006 and I'm like yeah, he's just town. Whiskey is town purely because he has absolutely 0 incentive as scum to unvote me. Like, literally 0.
Bella is the only one of my town reads that I couldn't hand on heart say I am confident in. The only reason I elim Bella today though is to save myself. If she is town, she will solve this game.
I can't split between the 3 scum because I need a flip to help me. There haven't been a lot of interactions between Somnus/Corwin and Corwin/Cheap doesn't seem to make sense right now either?
So Corwin is the common denominator. If Corwin isn't scum, then my handle on the game is way off. I know we discussed this earlier, but Somnus has been allowed to get away with some real scummy shit in this game and nobody is calling him on it. After my flip, I expect this to happen.
I'm also slightly worried you (Cheap) are being kept around as the elim that wins scum the game. You have done some real shady shit and nobody seems interested - if you're town, I'm guessing you're lined up to go after me.
Can we talk about Corwin's vote on my wagon? It's absolute dogshit, once again a few have called him out on it but it doesn't go anywhere.
So yeah. Elim Corwin today and I think through Somnus/Cheap elims after town wins.
Meta this. Meta that. Meta Everything. Meta is not a good scum-hunting tool. PEOPLE CAN MANIPULATE THEIR META. Stop it. Stop. It. Now.
Finally finally, it seems Bella is the only person who isn't willing to vote me (maybe even that has changed when she returns?) So, as seems to widely be the case, you would have to think Bella and myself are so bad at being scum that we would make it this obvious we're a team.
Or, Occam's Razor says, you got the wrong guy.
Meta this. Meta that. Meta Everything. Meta is not a good scum-hunting tool. PEOPLE CAN MANIPULATE THEIR META. Stop it. Stop. It. Now.
Is there anyone you didn't point a finger at just now? Like, seriously....
If you're that unsure about everyone why the fuck aren't you pressuring *any of them* except tunneling me today?
I've said multiple times I don't know how to read Bella, you want to pressure that slot and look at it? I think Rad's hedging and offloading his responsibility looks like trash. You want to pressure that?
Oh, hey, Cheap, btw you look super scummy and your entire use this game is to miselim later, of course I'm town but I'm not going to vote the scummiest looking slot from Yesterday.
Come on dude, we have almost *four days* left today and the best you can do is park a vote on me the entire time because, what? I'm the "common denominator" for having real life disrupt me and making an honest (hilariously bad, but honest) mistake? THIS is your best play this game? For the love of god, between you actually doing fuck all and Bella magically disappearing when it matters, tell me I didn't get a couple of SEs in my first game back who just don't give a damn.
UNVOTE:
Somnus' argument is absolutely shit, yeah, but at least it drove the game somewhere and we've gotten to this point. I'm not in a rush, we have more than half the day left to come back to you if you're still this awful later. Hell, you're so transparent right now we could just wait to elim until tomorrow and actually find your better-half instead of guessing. If you want to try to redeem yourself then fucking
do something
instead of half-assing it. What was it Cheap said? Put your money where your mouth is.
Sorry, I was out all day yesterday and then incredibly drunk. I did read some, And skim read this morning: I really liked cheap's post, even though it was quite anti!Bella, which has given me pause.
The other thing giving me pause is bbt. It's a weird world where a lot of 'teams' look possible with bbt, which is making me wonder about flipping him even though I'm not 100% convinced of my read. But then ..if he flips green, we're down a strong player.
The frustrating thing is bbt keeps thinking like me . There was a point where I flipped back to rad, as their jump on me seemed opportunistic, but then nah, they are actually working towards a solve, which is ..bbts thought process.
My strongest scum read is still in corwin. Both somnus and cheap play very different to me - they aren't here to bounce ideas off of and I find that incredibly hard to get reads from. But somnus hasnt responded really to me or bbt. Even if is convinced we are scum, and therefore beyond responding to, the pro town thing is still to try.
Bbt, should've clarified: I would hammer you at deadline. In my heart I think you are town but I am so tin hatted about you. In my most recent newbie, Luke kept saying these things that I was like 'yes! This is my thoughts' ...
And he was scum!!
Also,. even bbt flipping red OR green doesn't really clear anyone or massively indicate anyone. I think elim-ing in the pool that me and bbt have suggested gives more info.
In post 1017, Bellaphant wrote:Hey corwin, I'm around (Ish) if you have any thoughts to throw at me?
Other than BBT being a good player you'd hate to lose, is there *any* reason to think he's Town right now?
BlueBloodedToffee wrote:Why the unvote?
Does it really matter if Rad's willing to follow Whiskey blindly? It's a token, if you want to try to do something meaningful instead of muddying shit up to stick to your meta.
In post 1014, Corwinoid wrote:Is there anyone you didn't point a finger at just now? Like, seriously....
If you're that unsure about everyone why the fuck aren't you pressuring *any of them* except tunneling me today?
I'm not unsure. I said Rad and Whiskey are town. I also think Bella is town. I've been fairly consistent with this.
I'm pressuring you. Your wagon is the most viable CW to my own and I don't think town are going to go with me on the Somnus push Today. That unvote though, why?
In post 1014, Corwinoid wrote:I've said multiple times I don't know how to read Bella, you want to pressure that slot and look at it? I think Rad's hedging and offloading his responsibility looks like trash. You want to pressure that?
Nope, I don't want to pressure Bella. Rad is also town so not going there either. You want to vote Somnus with me? He wasn't too interested in voting you when I asked him unfortunately...
In post 1014, Corwinoid wrote:Oh, hey, Cheap, btw you look super scummy and your entire use this game is to miselim later, of course I'm town but I'm not going to vote the scummiest looking slot from Yesterday.
I don't know what this means.
In post 1014, Corwinoid wrote:Come on dude, we have almost *four days* left today and the best you can do is park a vote on me the entire time because, what? I'm the "common denominator" for having real life disrupt me and making an honest (hilariously bad, but honest) mistake?
Yeah, your the CW to my wagon, as I've stated. Also, what scum hunting have you done? Your vote on my wagon was absolutely awful, too.
In post 1014, Corwinoid wrote:Somnus' argument is absolutely shit, yeah, but at least it drove the game somewhere and we've gotten to this point. I'm not in a rush, we have more than half the day left to come back to you if you're still this awful later.
You still seen to be scum reading me so why have you unvoted?
Somnus argument is so bad that you used it to leech off and then vote me? Cool. I know his case was bad, I read it.
Meta this. Meta that. Meta Everything. Meta is not a good scum-hunting tool. PEOPLE CAN MANIPULATE THEIR META. Stop it. Stop. It. Now.
