Open 854 | Eurybia's Curse | Game Over!

[Isis]

Bussing is really strong in this setup if town is not acknowledging that the mechanical effect of bussing d1 is like a fourth of the effect it has in a mountainous game. If not less

[skitter30]

I think that

a) She may not have had this entire plan in mind from the start. i think that her actions in phase 1 were to incrementally improve the position of the scumteam by repeatedly pushing back on the reads of people of people who were scumreading her partner, Pav (looking back, actually all of the people that i had initially called her out for attacking were scumreading pav. i thought it was about gamma, but i think you're right that it was establishing a fake link). she then has the option of bussing pav if necessary, and it gives her a fairly clean path out. but i think when she voted there she probably didn't expect the wagon to actually go through due to the general apathy and inactiveness of people. the pav lim came from you and isis, not from the votes. my guess would be that she wanted to be on record as voting pav early but actually let him escape

b) Even if she did have the entire plan in mind from the start, i don't see why she wouldn't do it? it seems like a pretty good plan to me

For a):
- i was on pav for several irl days, and saw that it was rising, and had ample opportunity to hop off if i wanted to. Saying that i 'wasnt expecting the wagon to go thru' is fairly counter to my actual behavior wrt the wagon

- related to the above: what do u think of meuh, who actually *did* hop off as the wagon grew. If anything, that looks fairly partner-y to me

- i also think it's more than a little unfavorable to wave away my vote on the wagon by saying 'it came from ari and isis', and not from votes

- i also think it's a little ??? to ascribe my day1 scumreads to 'attackijg people who are pushing my partner pav' instead of 'those were my actual scumreads'. Why do u think its the former and not the latter?

Part b:
- you said you've played with me before. I think it's *incredibly* unlikely that scum-me would choose to escape and leave the game for endgame in the hands of a partner unless i was confident said partner would win off of that setup. Answering that question is p pivotal to ascribing a scum motivation that makes sense for me in the universe ari outline, ans i dont believe you adequately answered this the last time i asked

[skitter30]

Cakez why are you prioritizing marci over meuh again?

[Coral]

- i was on pav for several irl days, and saw that it was rising, and had ample opportunity to hop off if i wanted to. Saying that i 'wasnt expecting the wagon to go thru' is fairly counter to my actual behavior wrt the wagon

You didn't ever actually push him though, or make any attempts to convince people to join the wagon. It didn't feel at all like you were voting someone that you really thought was scum, and looking back over it now it still doesn't feel that way. The wagon was just kind of... sitting there, just like most of the other wagons that day, and that's why we ended up going for the town leader route.

- related to the above: what do u think of meuh, who actually *did* hop off as the wagon grew. If anything, that looks fairly partner-y to me

Related to the above, I think that a scum partner to Pav who didn't feel like the wagon was going through would have no reason to leave because it looks

terrible

, despite not really actually advancing scum wincon in the slightest. You genuinely think that Meuh thought a Fruit counterwagon to Pav would a) be necessary to save Pav, b) actually accomplish anything, and c) not get her immediately limmed after Pav escaped?

- i also think it's more than a little unfavorable to wave away my vote on the wagon by saying 'it came from ari and isis', and not from votes

We gave up on voting traditionally and did the town leader approach. Ari said she'd sheep Isis, and Isis chose Pav. Isis could have chosen anyone. I don't think the wagon really had a major impact on Pav getting elimmed, so I don't know why it's "unfavorable" to say that.

- i also think it's a little ??? to ascribe my day1 scumreads to 'attackijg people who are pushing my partner pav' instead of 'those were my actual scumreads'. Why do u think its the former and not the latter?

Because it felt like those scumreads came and went as was convenient. Your Titus scumread didn't last. Your Ari scumread didn't last. Your GL scumread didn't last. You only really actively pushed them when they were pushing Pav.

Part b:
- you said you've played with me before. I think it's *incredibly* unlikely that scum-me would choose to escape and leave the game for endgame in the hands of a partner unless i was confident said partner would win off of that setup. Answering that question is p pivotal to ascribing a scum motivation that makes sense for me in the universe ari outline, ans i dont believe you adequately answered this the last time i asked

I'm not really that confident that you are planning to escape first if scum. The universe Ari outlined isn't the only one I'm considering. I can see your point, though, unless you felt like you had successfully hard cleared your partner off associations with you then you probably wouldn't plan to escape first.

[Coral]

These two responses don't really fit to me as coming from someone who apparently wanted Pav dead

It seems like me/beat/pav/Marci are all being suspected for not really doing much to solve, but there’s a critical thinking error in that people aren’t processing “hey maybe that’s just not actually scum indicative in the slightest here”. If they can’t recognize that pattern at this point they are playing poorly, and anyone that does see it and does not aim to convince those that don’t of it is also playing poorly.

I've been saying that repeatedly, and trying to convince people of that for a while, and apparently i'm 'not hunting scum, and that my primary focus is on people's reads and why they shouldnt be having them'

I dont think rhe onus should be on me if you guys aren't being townie-enuf to not be wagoned, and its also kinda silly that i'd be getting blamed/scumread for trying to stop it and also not stopping it enough

Also I would add tuf to the list of marci/gamma/pav/beat

was including Beat in this list intentional?

Yes
My point is if we flip in that group both yesterday/today because we couldn't correctly pick out scum, we'll have a very tough elo

I want a vc but i'm prob switching to marci

[skitter30]

@coral there were like 5 people on the wagon. The people *on* the eagon are not the reason it didnt go through, it's wild to me that you're saying that the people *on* wagon are the reason the game stalled

Also your argument for town-meuh basically boils down to her being too scummy to be scum? Also uh yeah i think she can hop off partner-meuh and not get flipped: there's literally like two people voting her rn, if that, ans i'm having quite the time trying to get more votes on her

Wrt my scumreads: i mean, it's possible that new things happened that changed my mind - ari dropped when she pushed the town leader thing, cuz i dont think she does as scum. I dont remember significantly scumreading titus, and gl i only dropped because he got conftowned (and i eould imagine if i'm conftowning people i'd have a better trajectory on the people conftowned - why do i pick a fight with an isis that i'm conftowning again?)

And ok, if i'm not planning on escaping, why am i playing so aggressively again? Dont remember if it was you or meuh but someone was saying me playing aggressively indicates i was planning on escaping. If i'm aggressive cuz i'm escaping then scum-me (due to how i play scum) needs to have a plan for what happens if i escape. If you're saying i wasn't planning on escaping, your argument for why i treated the lav wagon the way i did falls through. It doesnt really make sense to pick half of the argument when convenient and then drop the implications because they aren't



Like i'm just very skeptical that you actually believe most of what you've said in that post ...

[marcistar]

Cakez why are you prioritizing marci over meuh again?

i think hes blinded by what he thinks is my scumgame, but in reality i have done it as town too

[Isis]

why do i pick a fight with an isis that i'm conftowning again?

I was extremely limmable until I posted a pic with Pav's name and stuck with it and you didn't food fight me at all at any point after that, before then your or someone else pointed out my disinterest in Pav seemed scummy if he was red

[Coral]

@coral there were like 5 people on the wagon. The people *on* the eagon are not the reason it didnt go through, it's wild to me that you're saying that the people *on* wagon are the reason the game stalled

I don't think I said this at all? I said that being on the wagon wasn't very meaningful and I don't think it's clearing for you because the wagon wasn't really going anywhere. I also said that I don't really see your posts as you pushing for a Pav flip.

Also your argument for town-meuh basically boils down to her being too scummy to be scum? Also uh yeah i think she can hop off partner-meuh and not get flipped: there's literally like two people voting her rn, if that, ans i'm having quite the time trying to get more votes on her

Um, no, I think you missed the whole point of what I said. I said that there's no point in taking an action that looks surface-level scummy when it doesn't actually help your wincon. I don't believe that the Pav wagon really had much momentum at the time where Meuh unvoted. Maybe I'm wrong on that read of the gamestate? But that was what I felt at the time and it still feels that way looking back

And ok, if i'm not planning on escaping, why am i playing so aggressively again? Dont remember if it was you or meuh but someone was saying me playing aggressively indicates i was planning on escaping. If i'm aggressive cuz i'm escaping then scum-me (due to how i play scum) needs to have a plan for what happens if i escape. If you're saying i wasn't planning on escaping, your argument for why i treated the lav wagon the way i did falls through. It doesnt really make sense to pick half of the argument when convenient and then drop the implications because they aren't

I don't think this was ever really part of my argument, so I'm not really sure what you're talking about here. If you're talking about my engagement with Ari's idea of what your plan could be, I was mostly just musing on her thoughts. I think there's a lot of possible plans or half-plans that you could have here depending on who you're partnered with/what you plan to do in the future and I don't think you'd tie yourself to one specific blueprint of how to play the game and never deviate, anyway.

I think that it's

believable

that you would behave on the Pav wagon as scum the way that you did as. But that isn't

why

I think you're scum. I think you're scum mostly for your pattern of what looks to me like subtly chainsawing for Pav, as discussed previously. I also think that your posts haven't remained consistent with a town mindset, and it feels like your reads and the way you interact with people is shifting based on what is convenient to you rather than stemming naturally from events that happen.

[Coral]

Like i'm just very skeptical that you actually believe most of what you've said in that post ...

I don't believe most of what you seem to think I said, because I don't think that what you think I said (or at least, what you said that you think I said) is a very good representation of what I said

[Aristeia]

I don't believe that the Pav wagon really had much momentum at the time where Meuh unvoted. Maybe I'm wrong on that read of the gamestate? But that was what I felt at the time and it still feels that way looking back

I did a full summary of the initial pavo wagon here: 3217

Meuh first voted Pavo at 2051 which was Monday Afternoon

Meuh voted TUF at 2305 which was Wednesday Morning (roughly 36 hours after the she voted Pavo)

When Meuh moves off Pavo he is at 5 Votes (Meuh, Skitter, Ari, Titus, GLion)

Cakes had said he would be willing to vote for Pavo in 2060

The only person really defending Pavo around when Meuh unvoted is Gamma who was loudly complaining about the game taking a "shortcut" to solving in 229422962298

I think if we're in the world where Meuh is Mafia and Gamma is town, then Meuh realized the distancing she was doing was going to get Pavo killed and as long as Gamma!town was defending Pavo and Fruit!Town was focused on Marci then she could get away with unvoting and counterwagoning fruit with Gamma because there wouldn't be the votes to flip Pavo then.

[Ydrasse]

VOTE COUNT 3.3

[2]

marcistar

: SirCakez, The Ugly Fruit

[2]

skitter30

: Meuh, Isis

[1]

Meuh

: skitter30

[6]

Not voting

: Aristeia, marcistar, Titus, GuiltyLion, Coral, Faker

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to eliminate.

Day two ends in (expired on 2022-06-29 23:42:43)

MOD NOTES

• please let me know if there are any errors, i do this by hand.

• have fun!

[Isis]

I want to come over here and play but then a bad emotional thing happen

[Isis]

If I don't post tonight after I've calmed down and hopefully I cool down please ping me
.except you can't discuss the game except in the scum PT so ping me in the scum PT

[Aristeia]

One thing that struck me as odd when I reread this page:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... start=2275


Is that when Gamma is loudly complaining about pushes on Gamma/Beat/Pavo/Marci and saying it's weird that nobody is doing anything about TUF and then Meuh says "oh TUF is probably chilling in wolf chat" and then she votes for TUF..

She doesn't actually say anything about Pavo to Gamma... Which is kind of weird to me because the wagon on Pavo that Gamma is loudly complaining about... was started by Meuh in the first place so why doesn't she engage him on Pavo instead of just going "hey it's TUF let's go"

[Aristeia]

I want to come over here and play but then a bad emotional thing happen

*hugs*

I hope you feel better soon dear.

[skitter30]

why do i pick a fight with an isis that i'm conftowning again?

I was extremely limmable until I posted a pic with Pav's name and stuck with it and you didn't food fight me at all at any point after that, before then your or someone else pointed out my disinterest in Pav seemed scummy if he was red

My point was if i'm scum
And can choose to conftown
Why do i pick a fight with someone i then conftown

I can either not pick a fight, or not conftown you if i'm fighting with u to make u flippable

[skitter30]

I want to come over here and play but then a bad emotional thing happen

Ugh i'm sorry i dont meant to be unpleasant
Coral, i'm sorry too

Taking a break for now, have fun everyone!

[Isis]

you can't go back in time and not pick the fight after i become unflippable bc i played dressup to pav bus

i like dont think that was in my range

[Isis]

i feel somewhat better now i had some irl business/commercial/legal transition stress

[skitter30]

Ok i'm happy to hear :)
I just dont want to be the source of unpleasantness

So like i can drop it idk

[Isis]

i want to iso coral

[Isis]

skitter is town in real life

[Aristeia]

we are all town in real life and this yacht party is great even if some of us got the wrong kind of invite ^_^

[skitter30]

skitter is town in real life

:)