Mini 2274: Terminator: Salvation Game Over!

[Aisa]

Spoiler: Relevant context

[...]

Nah, the PT wasn't accessible at any point Vivax. (Or it was but no-one except ejjinami ever noticed.) Are you an alt by the way?

[...]

No I'm not an alt, I go by Vivax wherever I play (✟TL mafia✟, MU).

Regarding the bolded: How do you presume that it wasn't accessible or that only ejjnami noticed it? Seems like a generous assumption to make.

Ah yes, MU, that makes sense. (I was just asking because you came across as pretty confident and I was trying to understand where that came from.)

To answer your question:
- I think we may both have accidentally conflated two issues. Issue #1 is: was there a link to the scum PT in the original post? Issue #2 is: if there was a link, was the PT accessible to any townies?
- It is possible that issue #1 occurred, and I'll give you that it's possible that people other than ejjinami noticed. Maybe they just didn't say anything because if issue #2 didn't occur, issue #1 is not a big deal?
- If your point is that ejjinami noticing and pointing out #1 is slightly scum-indicative, sure, I'll give you that. Maybe mafia are more attentive to such things or something.
- I am not an authority on the forum software, but I believe that for issue #2 to occur the moderator needs to specifically grant access to a townie in error. It's very likely that did not occur. If that did occur, no townie noticed it. If a townie noticed issue #2, I have no idea why they didn't say anything.

So I guess my point is: it's possible the OP contained a link to the scum chat and ejjinami noticing that may be somewhat scum-indicative, but like, it does not outright spew ejjinami scum as you seemed to believe.

By the way,

@ejjinami

, I'd like you to explain exactly what you meant when you made that post (I have a theory I'd like to check).

[...]
I don't disagree that both scum pushing me should be treated as NAI for my slot, which is the reason I didn't like Emerald pushing the notion.
Currently though I'm warming up to the idea that Johnny could be mafia cause I'm getting the vibes that he's just lurking and trying to sentiment snipe the best wagon for his survival. Calling my posts a flail was a reach, I much prefer Aisas take on that one. I do try to have fun.
I'd also like to add that ejjnami was a lot more active in the PT.

But apparently Enchant floats the notion that there's 2 confirmed town and so far I've liked the slot for town too much to dismiss that. I don't know who he means exactly but judging by the posts I'd guess it's RR and Aisa. Those seem fairly town to me.

Wait, is that why you pushed Gamma a little? Have you read e.g. my post on why Gamma and I are probably town? Do you agree or disagree?

I'd say my confidence is just how I play this game. I'm not necessarily as talkative 'off-paper', and definitely not as pompous.
My town play can be very disruptive at times. I just love chaotic, emotional games and can be quite reckless at provoking that in a game.

Regarding §1 I'd say it's not a slam dunk reason if ejjnami wasn't able to access it. I'd also like to add that I got powerscum vibes off them in the PT and mentioned it there, but that was more feels based.
As for §2 (Gamma), I'll have to think it through because I don't know if 3 scum in a PT killing off everyone else wouldn't be too obvious to spot for the people from the other PT before mafia could secure a victory. Since I'm a sub/replacement I don't really have a good grasp on the alternating phases for now to be able to reconstruct that off the bat.
What would the town tell be, please do tell?

As for the avatar, it just stopped working. Got it from N_M so who knows.

Glad we're on the same page about PT access. Powerscum vibes is fair.

Alternating phases...?

The town tell would be that you didn't seem to understand how scum PTs work, which may suggest you've never been on one on this website. Although I was thinking that you obviously understand that fake-dumbtells exist, which is concerning for my theory.

[Vivax]

So I'm not gonna vote Aisa or Gamma, because wrong group.

I'm more or less betting the game on ejji here.

Vivax was the slot I wanted to push yesterday

I know nothing about RR other than this empassioned plea right now, which I like.

Enchant I could go either way on, but I don't really get bad vibes.

Yeah.

VOTE: Vivax

I'd like to add that Johnny didn't push me in the PT and seemed content to just vote Penguin. So the bolded looks scummy to me today.

[Vivax]

Spoiler: Relevant context

[...]

Nah, the PT wasn't accessible at any point Vivax. (Or it was but no-one except ejjinami ever noticed.) Are you an alt by the way?

[...]

No I'm not an alt, I go by Vivax wherever I play (✟TL mafia✟, MU).

Regarding the bolded: How do you presume that it wasn't accessible or that only ejjnami noticed it? Seems like a generous assumption to make.

Ah yes, MU, that makes sense. (I was just asking because you came across as pretty confident and I was trying to understand where that came from.)

To answer your question:
- I think we may both have accidentally conflated two issues. Issue #1 is: was there a link to the scum PT in the original post? Issue #2 is: if there was a link, was the PT accessible to any townies?
- It is possible that issue #1 occurred, and I'll give you that it's possible that people other than ejjinami noticed. Maybe they just didn't say anything because if issue #2 didn't occur, issue #1 is not a big deal?
- If your point is that ejjinami noticing and pointing out #1 is slightly scum-indicative, sure, I'll give you that. Maybe mafia are more attentive to such things or something.
- I am not an authority on the forum software, but I believe that for issue #2 to occur the moderator needs to specifically grant access to a townie in error. It's very likely that did not occur. If that did occur, no townie noticed it. If a townie noticed issue #2, I have no idea why they didn't say anything.

So I guess my point is: it's possible the OP contained a link to the scum chat and ejjinami noticing that may be somewhat scum-indicative, but like, it does not outright spew ejjinami scum as you seemed to believe.

By the way,

@ejjinami

, I'd like you to explain exactly what you meant when you made that post (I have a theory I'd like to check).

[...]
I don't disagree that both scum pushing me should be treated as NAI for my slot, which is the reason I didn't like Emerald pushing the notion.
Currently though I'm warming up to the idea that Johnny could be mafia cause I'm getting the vibes that he's just lurking and trying to sentiment snipe the best wagon for his survival. Calling my posts a flail was a reach, I much prefer Aisas take on that one. I do try to have fun.
I'd also like to add that ejjnami was a lot more active in the PT.

But apparently Enchant floats the notion that there's 2 confirmed town and so far I've liked the slot for town too much to dismiss that. I don't know who he means exactly but judging by the posts I'd guess it's RR and Aisa. Those seem fairly town to me.

Wait, is that why you pushed Gamma a little? Have you read e.g. my post on why Gamma and I are probably town? Do you agree or disagree?

I'd say my confidence is just how I play this game. I'm not necessarily as talkative 'off-paper', and definitely not as pompous.
My town play can be very disruptive at times. I just love chaotic, emotional games and can be quite reckless at provoking that in a game.

Regarding §1 I'd say it's not a slam dunk reason if ejjnami wasn't able to access it. I'd also like to add that I got powerscum vibes off them in the PT and mentioned it there, but that was more feels based.
As for §2 (Gamma), I'll have to think it through because I don't know if 3 scum in a PT killing off everyone else wouldn't be too obvious to spot for the people from the other PT before mafia could secure a victory. Since I'm a sub/replacement I don't really have a good grasp on the alternating phases for now to be able to reconstruct that off the bat.
What would the town tell be, please do tell?

As for the avatar, it just stopped working. Got it from N_M so who knows.

Glad we're on the same page about PT access. Powerscum vibes is fair.

Alternating phases...?

The town tell would be that you didn't seem to understand how scum PTs work, which may suggest you've never been on one on this website. Although I was thinking that you obviously understand that fake-dumbtells exist, which is concerning for my theory.

Not my town tell, the town tell for GE in the post you linked to me where you dismissed the 3-scum-in-1-PT theory.

[Gamma Emerald]

As for §2 (Gamma), I'll have to think it through because I don't know if 3 scum in a PT killing off everyone else wouldn't be too obvious to spot for the people from the other PT before mafia could secure a victory. Since I'm a sub/replacement I don't really have a good grasp on the alternating phases for now to be able to reconstruct that off the bat.

I did kinda think of that, which is probably why my and Aisa's points differed. There's other ways they could have played it though and still had ability to off all the town. Voting off town and scum while using both kills on that PT. The remaining scum could lie their asses off about the two nightkills being killed for towntelling in the hood if that got questioned.

[Aisa]

Here is my half-case half-discussion on RR. At first I thought it was just going to be a case, but as always you stare at the same message for long enough and you start questioning everything and picking up nuances you didn't pick up on earlier.

Spoiler: Wall about RR

If I need to die to state your collective paranoia so you can move on to Vivax, so be it, but like. Given what seems to have occurred in the past PT, and in the main thread prior to the split, our hypothetical scumteam's strategy would have apparently been to just all bus each other, which.... Isn't really an ideal tactic if you ask me, and certainly hasn't worked out for "us" so far.

We do have breathing room thanks to everyone kicking ass in the past though, so do what you must. Though I'm pretty sure game ends with a Vivax lim here

Well, I townread everyone else alive. Can't speak for everyone, but it's the only option left, and I think they started the day off scummy as well so.

It feels like you're expressing some level of apathy which I think may be premature and slightly scum-indicative at this point? I guess off the top of my head I, Enchant, and Ejjinami have expressed some degree of suspicion, but you're far from gone. If you think the game ends with a Vivax lim then you could just push Vivax harder. This reads a little like a token effort to appear solvy all the while not doing anything about it.

Also I think both NAHA and CSF mentioned feeling overcommitted at some point and I think that probably contributed their eventual eliminations. I'm not really operating under the assumption they brought their A-game to the table.

I kinda wanted to pick at the "I townread everyone else alive" but I guess I went through the very same feeling and did not do much about it in the PT, so I'll leave that point to rest.

I think I may just have some instinctive aversion to "we have breathing room"-type comments like NO. COMPLACENCY IS EXACTLY WHAT LOSES YOU THE GAME IN THESE SITUATIONS. WE NEED TO BE

CAREFUL

Hmm, NAHA also went after the Vivax slot a lot though.

I think this is a little bit different because of shoshin being the original occupant of the slot. They literally didn't post at all, which apparently is scum indicative of them according to a couple other people, and though I still find that to be a bit flimsy justification, from the perspective of their team they'd be dead weight. Their presence in the game means it takes more votes to eliminate, but they never push or vote or anything themselves. So at that point, bussing is the best option, might as well squeeze some towncred out of the situation.

TL;DR

If I'm Koba and I know that shoshin is scum, and that they aren't playing the game, I attempt to bus there regardless.

I don't find this explanation that compelling. The bussing you describe is not the kind of thing I'd find inherently towny, I don't think.

At that point they'd already committed.

It would have looked really silly for them to go from "I am 100% confident on shoshin scum, I am the best at scumhunting and I am always right about lurkers" to "I guess you can have another chance"

When one of them flips red, that interaction would have been jumped on immediately if they'd tried it

I think a summary of the conversation as I understand it may be useful:
RR: I'm not scum because it doesn't make sense for the scum team to bus me
Me: But you scum read Vivax, and if Vivax is scum then scum was bussing that slot
RR: It would have made sense for scum to bus that slot, my scum read on Vivax is not undermined by your point
Gamma: If scum was bussing that slot they would later have tried to "give the slot another chance"
RR: No, they'd already committed
Gamma: scum can get away with a lot [commentary: I agree]

I think you may have pushed your point a bit too far and may have started to grasp at straws. I think it would have been a better look if at some point you'd said something like "I see that this theory is a bit far-fetched but I still have a feeling it would be valid".

I find it particularly striking that in 1157 you worded things as if it was a given that Vivax if maf. I'm still trying to decide if that's towny or scummy?

RR, do you see what I mean?

Aah. Need to think harder about the rodent or maybe need to sleep and let my subconscious work on it.

Vivax, I'll explain the town-tell tomorrow. To do some expectation management, it will be a slightly fancier version of "Gamma came across as very genuine when they got into the discussion with Loki."

[Radical Rat]

I don't think I'm being apathetic. I do care what happens, and I do want Vivax dead. But we're not in immediate danger, and we can afford a miss as long as it brings us closer to actually winning. If that miss is me, then that means you know I'm being honest at the very least, and sets the stage for Vivax tomorrow.

And sure, Ejj COULD have faked not seeing the PT, as anyone can fake anything. But to me, it seemed real. It didn't look intended to come across as Town, just as a genuine excuse for not having posted.

Of course, I suppose it's also possible that they'd just bookmarked the scum thread and never passed through the PT list, but... That can be worried about if Vivax doesn't end the game

[Vivax]

Eh, I think Enchant is prob Town here.

No reason to chainsaw for Vivax as solo scum, when he could help the lim go through first then blame me for it after

Do you believe that you should be scumread for being wrong on a player?
That's poor, honestly. But helps you make a lazy read here. Townies can be wrong all the time and I don't believe that you'd scumread them on that alone.

By the logic you're using here, if I'm scum all the mafia that flipped should have been town for pushing me.
You also imply that the only reason you should be pushed for by a scum-Enchant is a mislaunch.
If you're convinced Ench is town, try to convince them of your point of view?

[Vivax]

UNVOTE: ejjnami
VOTE: JohnnyFarrar

I like this more for today, the voting mood flipped again.

[Aisa]

On reread, Andante-JohnnyFarrar obvtown, ejjinami has some interesting interactions with the known members of the scumteam. Disclaimer: I am on page 3

[Vivax]

[JohnnyFarrar]

I'm here

[Aisa]

Why is Vivax scum Johnny?

[JohnnyFarrar]

RR seems genuine in their push and the other person in my POE is Enchant. I like the Vivax vote the best.

[Aisa]

Thanks. Is there anything in particular that seems scummy about Vivax?

[JohnnyFarrar]

Advocating for a lim outside of (vivax, enchant, RR) is exactly what scum would do in this situation.

[Enchant]

Advocating for a lim outside of (vivax, enchant, RR) is exactly what scum would do in this situation.

Why ejji not in list of elims?

[JohnnyFarrar]

Cuz I think he's town

[Enchant]

Cuz I think he's town

lmao kill it

[Vivax]

On reread, Andante-JohnnyFarrar obvtown, ejjinami has some interesting interactions with the known members of the scumteam. Disclaimer: I am on page 3

From what I've seen, Johnny didn't even post until page 3. Unless I missed a post.

[Aisa]

[...]

Not my town tell, the town tell for GE in the post you linked to me where you dismissed the 3-scum-in-1-PT theory.

Ok, here we are. Behold me trying to summarise a PT you cannot read and why the things Gamma said felt towny to me.

- When Gamma was arguing with Loki a lot of the posts were fired very quickly. Rereading them, it doesn't feel like Gamma needed to pause at all in order to check their tone or fake anything.
- One of the points of contention between Gamma and Loki in the PT was that Loki asked Gamma a question about their read on Fidget and NAHA. Gamma repeatedly refused to answer this because they felt Loki was asking this question in bad faith. Gamma also specifically pointed out that they answered similar questions posed by someone else, because it felt like that person. That just seems like an odd point to want to make as scum.
- They also seemed really grateful when CSF and Fidget came in during the argument and tread them both for it. Again that seems like a strange move if they're scum.

Sparknotes version: Gamma seemed really genuine when they got into the argument with Loki. There were multiple contextual cues that, to me, suggested they weren't just pushing Loki to put on a show but genuinely believed in what they were saying.

Hope that helps. Like, if Gamma survives all the way to 2:1 elo obviously whoever is alive then should be careful around the slot, but I don't really consider it worth my time and energy to even worry about Gamma being scum today.

(...Can't wait for Gamma to flip scum now so I undergo the maximum possible amount of humiliation in a single game :') )

[Aisa]

Johnny is the substitute for Andante. It's the same slot.

[Aisa]

Cuz I think he's town

lmao kill it

What's wrong with that?

[Vivax]

Johnny is the substitute for Andante. It's the same slot.

I don't find Ands posts that townie, she defended and in contemporary attacked NAHA right off the bat.
NAHA also healed Andante. I would assume that ideally, mafia wouldn't want to just give up on getting a leader set up.
Here:

Spoiler:

I mean - no one has to decide now?

lol THANK YOU!! everyone's acting like we HAVE to have one in the first 24 hours, like... people chill it'll be ok lol

HEAL: Andante
I know she requested not to be one, but I find that those who seek positions of power are often not the sort of people I want in positions of power.

hahahaha umm I'll either end up being good leader or terrible leader if I am one, there's like nothing in between, like I guess I'd rather be one than a terminator, but I'm sure we can find 2 town outside of me!! Abd that would be most ideal

oh rofl i just read the rules and you cant self heal lame

HEAL: PenguinPower

I'd also like myself to be healed as I tend to thrive with control over stuff in games like this.

Ok but like, why is your first instinct "I wanna self heal!!!!" this really isn't much different from a normal maf game where you find your town core or whatever, I say this, but if that was your first instinct it's probably more likely that you are town, cause I think maf would be more wanting to push each other, since there's 3 of them, like, 2 can push 1 to be healed, and yeah. ok tangent over, uhh not like a hard tr here or anything, but I think it's a good look for NotAHecticAlt

also theyre a mod so clearly theyre already well suited in positions of power

umm what? maybe I take back the "NotAHecticAlt kinda is looking good" cause umm "I'm healing mod cause mod" is like... really?? like, wanna play the actual game? or are we just blindly sheeping penguin all game cause mod?

Spoiler:

Noting the short phase deadline with disconcert, I make my entrance and say I'm excited to play with you all.

I'm not a fan of the instant heals... like, as soon as someone hits 6 they're a leader, so like yeah. plus post cap situatiion like, ehhh LOVE the gifs though

Hi! Do you feel different about the heals in particular? Would you feel this way if they were votes? Surely people can count?

HEAL: Andante

Uhhh I mean, heals are important, I don't see the purpose in RUSHING right as the game starts to randomly heal whoever, like, idk, that's just me. if they were votes I'd lose my mind I already have 2 votes lol so uhh yeah no heals and votes are not the same

Why are we voting heals based only off a few posts? I like the reasoning behind the heals but the game just literally started.

exactly my thoughts... it's almost like people don't care who they heal, like, it's not hard to sit here as day starts take control of the game, it's really not hard. if people wait till everyone at least shows up and says something, there's actual content... some of these people don't seem to want any content though I guess

The game is supposed to be mountainous. There’s no way the leader will have a standard role
If I were to guess- they could have a say in the lynch or night-kill choice so it might be worth at least eliminating those leader-candidates who know they tend to scum-side
Getting someone highly trustable and with a high accuracy would be perfect but frankly speaking I’m kinda afraid of seriously aiming for it
I doubt I’ll be able to get a good read on nearly anyone before any sort of yet
So yeah
……..it’s not like theorizing helps right now anyway lmao, lemme maybe just read the thread

OP says it's better if town are leaders than maf, so like, if I TR someone, and like my strongest TR doesn't always have good reads or whatever, I'm still healing them. cause it sounds like you don't care the person's alignment, you're just looking for the strongest players overall, and that's who you want. Which like, I guess if that's how you play, you do you, but those players are also more likely to have you thinking they're town when they're not, I'd rather just send 2 strong TRs regardless of their skills... the only way people get better is by practicing, and by being in this game, we're all practicing... I don't think these thoughts are all related to this post, but you strike me as someone who is coming in here "HERE'S MY THOUGHTS, AND THIS IS HOW WE'RE GONNA PLAY" which like, I am not a fan of, almost feels like you're trying too hard to be a leader in this situation, and I can safely say, as of this point, if there's anyone I don't want as a leader day 1, it's ejjinami.

I know it sounds stupid but if I were to select a Town leader right now, I’d make a choice based on personality rather than my early “reads”.

This is the post that got me so upset. Like, seriously? I didn't join this game for it to become "who's personality do I like/hate" or "popularity contest time" just.. yeah no, I'm not commenting on this any further, and just reading all this? almost makes me just not want to play the game anymore, I'm not sure why you ever thought it'd be a good idea to come in here "I'm going off personalities!!!" I highly doubt I'm alone in feeling this way..

[/quote]

[Aisa]

Mmh, I guess I can see why the interaction looks a bit sus, maybe I need to think about it more. However, I get the impression the defending, then attacking someone in the span of five minutes is typical.

You made a great point though, it's made me realise I should look at 1. whether NAHA and CSF were happy with how ejjinami got leader, and 2. how ejjinami went about selecting their crew.

[Aisa]

I don't think I'm being apathetic. I do care what happens, and I do want Vivax dead. But we're not in immediate danger, and we can afford a miss as long as it brings us closer to actually winning. If that miss is me, then that means you know I'm being honest at the very least, and sets the stage for Vivax tomorrow.

And sure, Ejj COULD have faked not seeing the PT, as anyone can fake anything. But to me, it seemed real. It didn't look intended to come across as Town, just as a genuine excuse for not having posted.

Of course, I suppose it's also possible that they'd just bookmarked the scum thread and never passed through the PT list, but... That can be worried about if Vivax doesn't end the game

True - if you flip town, then I do know you're being honest at the very least. I still don't think "setting the stage for Vivax tomorrow" is as good of a deal as you seem to suggest it is. I'm not exactly diving through any of the ISOs of the dead town players right now to necro-sheep them. (That sounds like it could be useful actually, but effort!)

Maybe help me see why Vivax might be scum? So far, I've got:
- you think their entrance today was scummy
- you townread everyone else
- maybe something about NAHA bussing there, I'm not sure if you were talking about that just as a hypothetical
Is there anything I'm missing?

By the way - I'm not really sure how to resolve this tension at the moment. I don't want to make you feel pressured to contribute more through comments like you being "apathetic" if you don't want to put more time into this game for whatever reason. But I also kind of want to reserve the ability to scum-read you if I feel like your posting patterns may be scum indicative. Again, I think I'm still trying to find the balance around that. I guess that if you ever feel unfairly pressured, feel free to let me know.
----

@ejji

- when you're next around, could give me a quick run-down of what made you decide to put NAHA on your crew? Reminder I would also appreciate it if you could re-explain what you meant when you made that comment about the PT earlier in game.
----
I think my reads have finally progressed to a point where they feel a little more concrete! I think I'm looking to vote

ejjinami

or

RR

at the moment. Anyone want to talk about those two?