LOST (Game Over)

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Yeah and then 400 pages happened and I lost your tone. So reading 2095 helped remind me what town bbt looks like.

Doesn't respond to what I'm saying. You said you have a good feel for the difference between my town and my scum game. Now, after 400 odd pages, you're saying I'm null and you can't read me.

You see the problem with these two statements, yes?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13427572

Here C&G ^^^

'I'll admit that I didn't know how to read BBT last game and I'm having the same difficulty this game. If I relied on meta, this game feels identical to how he played in my last game with him where he was scum. I think that's weak reasoning though so I'm coming into this game with a null read on him.'

Taken from the linked post above.

[Rad]

You don't think I pressured and was more involved in our Newbie game where I was scum?

You did it differently. I noticed the difference in 2097 and 2095 helped confirm it. You're a town leader and help push information out of people. Haven't seen that here, but it's a long fucking game and I lack confidence in this read.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

would be impressive if town keeps me alive due to smart town

flattery is not going to get you anywhere buddy

as the leader of this town I am committed to a plan of maximum stupidity

[Cytosine and Guanine]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13427572

Here C&G ^^^

'I'll admit that I didn't know how to read BBT last game and I'm having the same difficulty this game. If I relied on meta, this game feels identical to how he played in my last game with him where he was scum. I think that's weak reasoning though so I'm coming into this game with a null read on him.'

Taken from the linked post above.

I see.
It is very similar though Rad replaced in during that game which means that it could've been Rad thinking that prior to being in the game, making it NAI.
-Guanine

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You'll notice in that same game that he was town reading me until I started suspecting him - just like he has done here.

[Rad]

would be impressive if town keeps me alive due to smart town

flattery is not going to get you anywhere buddy

as the leader of this town I am committed to a plan of maximum stupidity

Lol it's just the reality. I won my first game as town because dead town had good reads and Bella was able to figure the game out and not flip me. That's just how shit is right now for town me.

I won my scum game by not angering furtive while bbt continued to piss him off.

Not sure why I'd attack everyone here like I have if scum but it's fine, it's my bad town play regardless.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You don't think I pressured and was more involved in our Newbie game where I was scum?

You did it differently. I noticed the difference in 2097 and 2095 helped confirm it. You're a town leader and help push information out of people. Haven't seen that here, but it's a long fucking game and I lack confidence in this read.

How can you be town leader in a game you physcially couldn't keep up with? You also can't be town leader when you're heavily scum read. I also have very little influence in this game due to a variety of things so fuck try-harding, right?

[Cytosine and Guanine]

You'll notice in that same game that he was town reading me until I started suspecting him - just like he has done here.

I see.
I haven't read that far past the linked post because I'm going to sleep and I have an important exam tomorrow.
I think that I'll take your word for now.
-Guanine

[Mislim Bait]

I think bbt is bella spewed
they had this whole conversation that feels real
bella didn't know how to react to it when bbt admitted that bella was right and that she was town

Spoiler:

(I tried to call you!)

Do you always move your vote around this much?

Well, when you look at the votes I accumulated and you consider my wagon lasted from 1075 up until 1699 then you have to consider the fact that it was a convenient place for scum to sit.

The fact I was 6(?) or 7(?) people's top scum read for a significant portion of the game based off of a naked vote is astonishing. I understand they can't all be scum, but scum took advantage of that situation for sure.

You seem quite worried about a vote that would've needed what, 14 votes to be a lim?

Worried is not the word I would use. Especially when my wagon isn't even relevant any more.

Suspicious fits much better. That was a horrible post Bella.

I guess I don't understand your key point? It feels like you are saying your wagon was scummy for....reasons, but you haven't really communicated the why, the who... I guess I'm normally used to being able to follow you and I'm finding it really hard This game.

P-edit also partly that. Ceph kicked off at their wagon top

I mean, you understand who I'm trying to get people to vote for, right?

Your thinking just feels really divorced from what was happening around it, like...who were you the counter to, what was happening with frog/ceph, why did your lack of contributions stick out more than say...toogs/corwins/whatever, rather just onto discrediting it. I used worried as it feels like you are using it a bit to avoid progressing the game, it feels backwards focused rather than forward.

Also, your response reminds me a lot of the response to my shit vca.

It feels strange to me that you seem to be not really engaging with the fact that your counter was ceph, who you also don't want people to vote. I actually share 2/3 of your other scum reads, so this point bugs me.

Mine?

Bella, I'm not following you at all here.

I literally just showed you a bunch of naked votes on my wagon, Dunn, Frog and your main reason for voting me was my naked votes. So that's 3 at the very, very least. These reads were held as their (your) best scum read FOR 25 PAGES. How do you not see a problem with that?

How is talking about my wagon not progressing the game? It gives me people to look at, one of which I am trying to get people to vote, but it's not happening.

What the fuck Bella?

It feels strange to me that you seem to be not really engaging with the fact that your counter was ceph, who you also don't want people to vote. I actually share 2/3 of your other scum reads, so this point bugs me.

Right, but counter wagon doesn't matter too much as only 7 votes. Like I said, they can't all be scum on my wagon but I expect scum to take advantage of a very comfortable place to sit for a long period of time.

I don't even remember where I was trying to go with this anymore.

I'll come back to this later

Because I don't think that's what happened? It is if you take away all the context, yes, but not in reality. I think that's why we are frustrating each other - you are telling me something you see as true, but I am also trying to tell you something true. You weren't 'my best scum read' for 25 pages, I'm frustrated with myself that I didn't vote ceph way before I unvoted you, but 25 pages here can also happen while we are asleep! I had a pile of scum reads, some of which we share. I dunno if people's reads list was more ordered than mine, in which case if you were 'bottom' of everyone's I guess it's a bit of a safe read, but even that isn't massively scummy, I think a few people have been borrowing those reads list for inspiration at least.

It isn't even 'naked votes ' - I've already said it was because of the feeling around it, the sneakiness, which is the bit I think Roden is trying to highlight too , that votes happened in response to a series of things.

I feel like you are being...blinkered? I understand your issue but it feels very off without the context. Plus, it feels a bit like your posts about vasex, which both you and corwin used to drag the game back, which is maybe why I'm reacting so badly.

I agree that there's some issues on your wagon/people's continued scum read, but I disagree that they came out of nowhere. I spoke to you, I unvoted, but this recent block of posting has made me worried again and I don't think it's unreasonable to expect you to understand why, seeing as a lot of it is to do with you specific to wider context?

I also think there are wider issues with the readslists.

Friday, really early morning, the wagons are
5 Frogsterking (JohnnyFarrar, Roden, Cephrir, Lukewarm, Galron)

4 Cephrir (BlueBloodedToffee, Dwlee99, PookyTheMagicalBear, Bell)

2 Galron (Bellaphant, The toad)
2 BlueBloodedToffee (Dunnstral, Cat Scratch Fever)
2 T-Bone (PenguinPower, Enchant)

Couple of hours later, the ceph wagon comes up. By bedtime, that wagon vanishes and you and frog have one vote different.
Sat pm, ceph wagon back, sat bedtime you are back down to two votes.

So...I understand why you would say scum could take advantage/sit on that wagon, but i would agree more if you were a leading wagon for a much longer chuck of time/the wagons weren't so shifty, etc. Same with the '25 pages ' - it's not a long time. This is why I said worries in the first place because it doesn't look that impactful.

You're absolutely right Bella.

My apologies, and thank you

The 25 pages thing is completely irrelevant given we're in a large. That were some really bad takes from me and I kind of wish I could delete them.

Bella you made me feel dumb. On the brightside, I'm pretty sure you're town now so I got something from it.

?? Now I'm sad /and/ confused

I was completely oblivious to the timing. I didn't realise it was only from Fri morning to Sat night, I just based it off # of posts and pages.

Every game I have played since being back has been remarkably slow and I've just caught onto something that wasn't relevant in the slightest.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Mislim is a smart guy (please don't be scum)

[BlueBloodedToffee]

UNVOTE:

Rad can be town for his early game Corwin push.

[Rad]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13427572

Here C&G ^^^

'I'll admit that I didn't know how to read BBT last game and I'm having the same difficulty this game. If I relied on meta, this game feels identical to how he played in my last game with him where he was scum. I think that's weak reasoning though so I'm coming into this game with a null read on him.'

Taken from the linked post above.

I see.
It is very similar though Rad replaced in during that game which means that it could've been Rad thinking that prior to being in the game, making it NAI.
-Guanine

Correct. I actually read that game 100% before I replaced in, so my thoughts in that first post were inherently from a townie perspective. I leaned on that townie perspective the entire game. I turned on BBT later not because he suspected me, but because I had to keep furtive my ally and I only had a couple options. I pushed harder on my other option (TL who was pure lurker) than on BBT and only pushed BBT when I had to.

[Cytosine and Guanine]

TBH I wouldn't say that I dislike much of what Rad has done except for mainly his 11193 and the similarities to his scumgame that BBT has mentioned before.
And the problem with 11193 is mainly because I felt like it was shading Roden.
But then Rad seems to justified in saying in 11281 that scum!him won't beattacking everybody.
Also, I'm really going to sleep now.
-Guanine

[Rad]

TBH I wouldn't say that I dislike much of what Rad has done except for mainly his 11193 and the similarities to his scumgame that BBT has mentioned before.
And the problem with 11193 is mainly because I felt like it was shading Roden.
But then Rad seems to justified in saying in 11281 that scum!him won't beattacking everybody.
Also, I'm really going to sleep now.
-Guanine

Let's be clear. I'm shading Roden for sure. His 2095 is drastically different than here and I want that known. I doubt he'd even disagree regardless of his alignment this game. town!Roden here is just being complacent due to being mason confirmed. scum!Roden lied about being a mason and is kicked back trying not to stir the pot. Both options are completely different than the 2095 Roden.

I'm also shading Mala for the drastic difference with 2095. I think 11229 is reasonable, but I also thought the plan with waiting a day on Bella was reasonable, so whatever. That ties up Drap for the night as well, and if Drap gets targeted and dies, we're stuck with unconfirmed Mala and dead Drap with no way of confirming beyond something silly like BB talks to someone Mala targets... So yeah, it gets convoluted, so maybe a bad plan.

Regarding the similarities BBT pointed out (me turning on him after he suspected me or whatever), 11287 explains why that's wrong, but you can look at that and consider it after you've slept.

[Rad]

Ordered.

Town:
butterflies
Drap
RCE

Town Lean:
Taly
Johnny
Pooky
T-Bone
BB
Mislim Bait
C&G
butterchurn

Null:
CSF
OTH
BBT
Roden

Scum Lean:
Malcolm
Mala

[butterflies]

Am looking for my Dad

VOTE: Pooky

Father?

Lukey I have a short hiatus from site and I come back to discover FREAKING POSHUL staring at me? smh.


Anyways Hi, going to skim some bits and see what thoughts permeate my brain.

-Butterflea

[Mislim Bait]

not alot but I dug more bella spews

Don't agree with frog about the Titus hydra for now, but can see where they are coming from. Reassured cat is picking up the same vibes as me from galron.

They used cat's read as kind of a reassurance to look good for their galron read which is PD's previous slot

2080 is super town, tbone! What's your issue with cat.
?

2080 definitely isn't super town which reeks tmi

@tsly, you disagree? I think cat evaluates a ton of slots, but also sees some stuff where they disagree but also take the time to work out if the thought process behind it comes from a solveu town mindset. Plus, they were sharing a bunch of my thoughts - the ceph wagon, toad, etc. I disliked t bones reaction a lot, but also I think I'm just a bit clashy with t bone in general

Again they kind of used csf's reads to look good saying that they shared the same read on ceph and we already know that ceph is town.

I don't know how to read professor drapion - yesterday I was scum with frog, and today their scum reads are weird. I also think the consistent push on CSF is ridiculous, as they are my strongest town read.

They called csf their strongest town and used it to shade pd's push on csf

CSF is still obv town.

They kept calling csf obv town
I honestly haven't looked at any of csf posts on a microscope so I'm not sure how justified a tr on them is but this looks good for csf
especially when it's compared to bella's hedgy read on mathblade their scum buddy.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I was thinking CSF could be scum but it seems less likely now from Bella's posting.

VOTE: Malcom

[Rad]

Yeah and then 400 pages happened and I lost your tone. So reading 2095 helped remind me what town bbt looks like.

Doesn't respond to what I'm saying. You said you have a good feel for the difference between my town and my scum game. Now, after 400 odd pages, you're saying I'm null and you can't read me.

You see the problem with these two statements, yes?

Yes, 400 pages of not knowing your alignment has thrown me off, and the easy town read of your 2095 made me start questioning this game further.

scum BBT probably doesn't jump off my wagon here so quickly though. I'm fully justifiable for scum to push today. Bell scum read me. Luke died scum reading me. I will be limmed at some point for those facts alone.

Corwin and Bella held me as their top town reads openly. I just glanced through BBT's ISO again for mentions of me, he had 1 early list where I was listed as town but for the most part, our interactions are mostly clashes. In his scum game, he moreso worked towards manipulating me than pushing me. Doesn't mean he's guaranteed to try to pocket me as scum, but I don't see why he wouldn't here.

BBT was 1 of 4 (with me, DP, and RCE) defending the Bella wait a day strategy. If there's 1 scum in that group it's probably BBT but I seriously doubt any scum would be so bold as to openly defend Bella when she was caught red handed by tracker. Maybe if that group was like 8 people or something, scum would be trying to fit in, but it's such a weird thing for BBT who many have a scum lean on to jump in the tiny "save Bella!" group when he knows Bella's going to flip red.

[Rad]

VOTE: Malcolm

Absolutely

[Mislim Bait]

If one of rad/malcolm flip scum then the other is always town
same goes for oth/mala they're claims sort of conflict with each other

[MalcolmTucker]

So I know people hate meta, but I read Newbie 2095 during the break and both Roden and Mala as town in that game played completely different than whatever they're doing here. Both were thoughtful and full of analysis, and both leader types, even on Mala's alt. Like I read Roden as hard town almost immediately and it never dropped.

Is it ridiculous to doubt the mason claims here? I get it could be town complacence being "confirmed" but holy shit, it's like a different person. If we have some way to confirm one way or the other, that would be great, though I'm guessing we do not at this point without a flip, and no need to flip a mason claim at this stage I think?

I'd ask both of them to step up their game if town. I dunno if Mala's trying to push a new goof around town meta or something, but there's so much lost compared to how both of them played in 2095.

A bit like with the suspicion of Pooky and Luke yesterday that never went anywhere, feels like Rad is trying to shade widely townread players on the off-chance it'll work without ever really committing to it at all. I think it's fine to use meta but I think it's understandable that not everyone plays every game in the same way. I did scumread Roden early on but seeing little reason to doubt the mason claim at this stage.

Considering

Rad

doesn't seem like a powerful posting slot in the game from what I've skimmed of D3 and D4, I don't think that's a strategy that would work with

Rad

alone. So it doesn't read to me as a probable motive for

Rad

.

I want you and

butterchurn

to flesh out your votes.

I don't think Rad is necessarily seeking to completely shift the direction of the game - even good players won't be able to do that without difficulty when you've got 15+ players still active. I think they're still to look more townie by coming up with supposedly fresh reads, but in the end these reads are just noncommittal attempts to shade players who are pretty much confirmed town in the hope that said read might actually gain some traction. Inevitably it tends not to. My reasoning voting for Rad has been quite clear for a considerable while now.

[MalcolmTucker]

I was thinking CSF could be scum but it seems less likely now from Bella's posting.

VOTE: Malcom

Felt like CSF had been quite quiet and I'm interested in looking there, I'll need to take a look at Bella's posting though.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Was their town read on Corwin and the 180 on Enchant that caught my interest.