LOST (Game Over)

[MalcolmTucker]

To present a towncase for myself, for anyone on the fence:

1. My pushes have been consistent and reasonable. The most tunnelled I've probably gotten is on Rad but I genuinely think Rad is scum and I've also been willing to reevaluate the slot at times. Thought Johnny was scum initially but I've reassessed there too. I don't believe I'm playing with any sort of agenda that would fit scum if you look through my posts.

2. My voting record is reasonable. I voted Taly D1 when we know Ceph was town. I get Taly is likely town but that cannot be 100% guaranteed - what is an absolute guarantee is that I voted to save someone who turned out to be a confirmed townie.

3. My vote on Math was not particularly opportunistic or last-minute. I discussed the slot a bit in the hood with Luke too, who set out their case and elaborated on what they'd posted in the main thread. I bought that and at the same time soured on my initial feeling that Math's frustration seemed genuine or townie.

4. Luke being eliminated overnight. Why does scum Malcolm do this? Luke was TR'ing me. Their insights were useful in the hood - even if I were scum, it'd be a good way for me to gauge thoughts/ideas in a way that could be beneficial for my scum team if I take said ideas back to them, given Luke thought I was town. I get you could believe there's a misdirect - but every vote counts and there's no reason for me to eliminate a prominent townie who was townreading me and also scumreading my own main scumread. The benefits of any misdirect are outweighed by the risk of being eliminated by players who are inherently more hostile to me.

[MalcolmTucker]

To add to the above - I also tend to be a pretty easy miselimination target when I am town for the most part. If you look through my past history I am often eliminated as town somewhere between three or five days into the game. I tend to be a somewhat hedgy player in how I approach things and once the gamestate reaches a point where I'm not necessarily obvious town based on pushes or voting, I become a useful target when the town struggles to consolidate, perhaps because I'm generally not a town leader type as such. If that's an approach the town wants to take here, fair enough, but it isn't an approach that's going to actually find you scum.

[Cytosine and Guanine]

Let's kill a mason and then coroner to be sure

I seriously hope this post is in jest. If not, you’re extremely lucky Pooky towncleared you.

he's joking/baiting i think lol

With him or Drap, I have a very difficult time being able to determine that. I think Pooky is really obvious town now and Drap seriously suggested we lim him before elo.

I would prefer to lim slots that I think could actually be scum.

No let me clarify.

The reason you should ONLY and EXACTLY vote Pooky the day before XyLo is this:
1) Could be a wolf going through deepwolf Territory and Frog was right on Pooky
2) If Pooky is Town, T-Bone is confirmed town which forces mafia to either kill them or we get a free IC into XyLo which is very good for us.

Okay... But how is a XyLo with both Pooky and T-Bone dead different from a XyLo with Pooky there and T-Bone dead? This plan is silly.

To present a towncase for myself, for anyone on the fence:

1. My pushes have been consistent and reasonable. The most tunnelled I've probably gotten is on Rad but I genuinely think Rad is scum and I've also been willing to reevaluate the slot at times. Thought Johnny was scum initially but I've reassessed there too. I don't believe I'm playing with any sort of agenda that would fit scum if you look through my posts.

2. My voting record is reasonable. I voted Taly D1 when we know Ceph was town. I get Taly is likely town but that cannot be 100% guaranteed - what is an absolute guarantee is that I voted to save someone who turned out to be a confirmed townie.

3. My vote on Math was not particularly opportunistic or last-minute. I discussed the slot a bit in the hood with Luke too, who set out their case and elaborated on what they'd posted in the main thread. I bought that and at the same time soured on my initial feeling that Math's frustration seemed genuine or townie.

4. Luke being eliminated overnight. Why does scum Malcolm do this? Luke was TR'ing me. Their insights were useful in the hood - even if I were scum, it'd be a good way for me to gauge thoughts/ideas in a way that could be beneficial for my scum team if I take said ideas back to them, given Luke thought I was town. I get you could believe there's a misdirect - but every vote counts and there's no reason for me to eliminate a prominent townie who was townreading me and also scumreading my own main scumread. The benefits of any misdirect are outweighed by the risk of being eliminated by players who are inherently more hostile to me.

2) Is this really the angle you are going to go with your voting record? Like that is really really weak. If both Taly and Cephrir are town, who you vote hardly matters as it is lose-lose regardless.
4) Okay, you might have a point except there's two other scum still alive. Even if Luke is reading you as town, it's very possible that Luke has nailed the other two scum on your team making it beneficial to still kill you. I still find this reasoning overall too speculative to be used for process of elimination.
~Cytosine

[MalcolmTucker]

Below is an extensive detailing of past games where I have been miseliminated as town, generally somewhere between D2 and D5. I'd get any reluctance to rely on meta because meta can be manipulated, but I feel like this game is following a similar pattern to some of those previous ones - a bit of suspicion builds, doesn't necessarily stick because I'm inherently not too scummy, but it doesn't really go away either, and when it's time for town to consolidate I end up being eliminated because the town is struggling to agree on a single elimination candidate. On one or two occasions I perhaps genuinely was the best viable elimination at the time...in other games there were maybe a couple of people with genuine scumreads on me, and the rest of the town followed out of inertia or laziness.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=89313

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... start=8200

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... start=2925

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... tart=11900

[Off The Hook]

i dont see how this could EVER come from scum

[MalcolmTucker]

Let's kill a mason and then coroner to be sure

I seriously hope this post is in jest. If not, you’re extremely lucky Pooky towncleared you.

he's joking/baiting i think lol

With him or Drap, I have a very difficult time being able to determine that. I think Pooky is really obvious town now and Drap seriously suggested we lim him before elo.

I would prefer to lim slots that I think could actually be scum.

No let me clarify.

The reason you should ONLY and EXACTLY vote Pooky the day before XyLo is this:
1) Could be a wolf going through deepwolf Territory and Frog was right on Pooky
2) If Pooky is Town, T-Bone is confirmed town which forces mafia to either kill them or we get a free IC into XyLo which is very good for us.

Okay... But how is a XyLo with both Pooky and T-Bone dead different from a XyLo with Pooky there and T-Bone dead? This plan is silly.

To present a towncase for myself, for anyone on the fence:

1. My pushes have been consistent and reasonable. The most tunnelled I've probably gotten is on Rad but I genuinely think Rad is scum and I've also been willing to reevaluate the slot at times. Thought Johnny was scum initially but I've reassessed there too. I don't believe I'm playing with any sort of agenda that would fit scum if you look through my posts.

2. My voting record is reasonable. I voted Taly D1 when we know Ceph was town. I get Taly is likely town but that cannot be 100% guaranteed - what is an absolute guarantee is that I voted to save someone who turned out to be a confirmed townie.

3. My vote on Math was not particularly opportunistic or last-minute. I discussed the slot a bit in the hood with Luke too, who set out their case and elaborated on what they'd posted in the main thread. I bought that and at the same time soured on my initial feeling that Math's frustration seemed genuine or townie.

4. Luke being eliminated overnight. Why does scum Malcolm do this? Luke was TR'ing me. Their insights were useful in the hood - even if I were scum, it'd be a good way for me to gauge thoughts/ideas in a way that could be beneficial for my scum team if I take said ideas back to them, given Luke thought I was town. I get you could believe there's a misdirect - but every vote counts and there's no reason for me to eliminate a prominent townie who was townreading me and also scumreading my own main scumread. The benefits of any misdirect are outweighed by the risk of being eliminated by players who are inherently more hostile to me.

2) Is this really the angle you are going to go with your voting record? Like that is really really weak. If both Taly and Cephrir are town, who you vote hardly matters as it is lose-lose regardless.
4) Okay, you might have a point except there's two other scum still alive. Even if Luke is reading you as town, it's very possible that Luke has nailed the other two scum on your team making it beneficial to still kill you. I still find this reasoning overall too speculative to be used for process of elimination.
~Cytosine

I don't think my voting record inherently clears me as town, I'm aware one of the reasons I'm a potential elimination is because I've not managed to consolidate myself as confirmed town yet, I'm just pointing out it's a pretty solid voting record. My point is Taly is probably town but we do not absolutely, definitively know that to be the case. If you have any doubt whatsoever then my vote on Ceph shows I'm voting with the interests of the town because we do absolutely, 100% know Ceph was town.

If I were scum it'd be possible Luke could have nailed my teammates here - but again that's a hypothetical situation. Go on the info we know. Luke TR'd me. Luke scumread my own main scumread - it should be pretty obvious to everyone that if I were scum in this scenario, Rad would be town. If you want to believe I'm in a scumteam that killed Luke because of his other reads, fair enough, but it prioritises hypothetical info over what we actually do know as confirmed fact.

[Rad]

Luke dying in a scum!Malcolm world makes sense as a wifom play and framing town!rad play while removing a strong town player. It's a really solid setup.

Luke dying in a scum!rad world makes sense if you want to blatently keep killing people who scum read rad because they're also strong town players you want to remove to help preserve the rest of the team. It's super unfortunate for scum!rad and likely gets him killed.

Luke dying in a town!Malcolm town!rad world is also solid because rad gets framed, Malcolm looks terrible after rad flip, and Luke is dead.

[MalcolmTucker]

I should also add:

1. My positioning on Mala here is quite townie. If I were scum, it'd be in my interests right now to fabricate a sudden proper scumread on Mala for self-preservation. It wouldn't be impossible to do and would give me a better chance of staying in the game. But I'm not going to do that because as town I'm not sold on Mala as scum and I don't want to lie. You can see a similar pattern in one or two of my previous games. Ultimately if it's a 1v1 I will vote Mala because I know I am 100% town, and if there's a 20% chance of Mala being scum then that vote remains in the interests of town. But my vote would be reluctant.

2. To add to previous meta, my past scumgames are informative in addition to my miseliminations. One of Luke's main reasons for TR'ing me was post 428 where I said I'd never been eliminated D1 - I forgot my first scum game where I accidentally outed myself to Flea in a hood because I confused my scum thread and hood thread. Luke pointed out I'd be more likely to recall this as scum because I'd be hyperaware. I did this happen to forget that game when I made the aforementioned post because I was in it so briefly, but I do get what Luke means, if I was scum I'd be more likely to recall that. But in my other scumgame where I didn't implode immediately I managed to win while basically worming my way into being confirmed town and barely being suspected all game. I'd argue when scum and when I don't implode, my play is more focused and actually better because I'm stronger at constructing a narrative with the focus on winning the game, vs being more aimless as a townie because I'm willing to admit I don't necessarily know who is scum or town.

Both games for reference.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=88783

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=89374

[MalcolmTucker]

Luke dying in a scum!Malcolm world makes sense as a wifom play and framing town!rad play while removing a strong town player. It's a really solid setup.

Luke dying in a scum!rad world makes sense if you want to blatently keep killing people who scum read rad because they're also strong town players you want to remove to help preserve the rest of the team. It's super unfortunate for scum!rad and likely gets him killed.

Luke dying in a town!Malcolm town!rad world is also solid because rad gets framed, Malcolm looks terrible after rad flip, and Luke is dead.

I am aware there's a world where I eliminate Luke as scum to frame you, but as I outlined above I think the benefits of that are outweighed by the obvious negatives we're literally seeing right now - I'm a possible candidate for elimination and one of my most prominent town defenders is not around to advocate for me remaining in the game.

I'm aware the second possibility would be really bold from you but you also have the immediate out you're using right now where you say eliminating Luke is too bold a move for scum Rad to make. If you're scum and have teammates who aren't being suspected, it's a viable approach for one member of the scumteam to be much bolder in their play to force through miseliminations or kill players who are a direct and immediate threat to them.

The third option is certainly a possibility and is one I'm giving some consideration too. It'd be a clever play from scum.

[Rad]

Well Malcolm, looks like both scum!Malcolm and scum!Rad defenses here are wifom based, and the most straight forward reality is option 3. Let's consider it indeed.

[Rad]

It bothers me that you think you know his role when the only place Johnny has discussed it is in our hood.

Can you elaborate any more on what you're thinking here tbone? Or do you want answers from drap first? I've been waiting for this thread to play out and I don't think it has yet.

[MalcolmTucker]

Well Malcolm, looks like both scum!Malcolm and scum!Rad defenses here are wifom based, and the most straight forward reality is option 3. Let's consider it indeed.

As I've said I'd be willing to compromise on Mala given the state of play, just unsure we'll actually find scum there.

[Rad]

Feel free to jump on. It looks like you're still on my wagon.

[MalcolmTucker]

Probably best to yeah.

VOTE: Malakittens

[Rad]

RCE come commit to something.

[ProfessorDrapion]

2. My voting record is reasonable. I voted Taly D1 when we know Ceph was town. I get

Taly is likely town but that cannot be 100% guaranteed

- what is an absolute guarantee is that I voted to save someone who turned out to be a confirmed townie.

Yeah once you said this I stopped reading and said “this can dis”

Math and Bella spew Taly!Town hard.

Bella hard pushed Taly and Math joined in I believe.

[ProfessorDrapion]

2. My voting record is reasonable. I voted Taly D1 when we know Ceph was town. I get

Taly is likely town but that cannot be 100% guaranteed

- what is an absolute guarantee is that I voted to save someone who turned out to be a confirmed townie.

Yeah once you said this I stopped reading and said “this can dis”

Math and Bella spew Taly!Town hard.

Bella hard pushed Taly and Math joined in I believe.

“This can die”*

[ProfessorDrapion]

Bella can you explain your town read on me? We had a super difficult time town reading each other in our previous game. Is it a vibe thing here or is there something specific that stood out to you?

Actually everyone read this post.
This is unaligned with Bella.

[ProfessorDrapion]

Holy shit I try to catch up, come in and it's on page 106, and I read everything starting from 95ish? and it's 6 more pages while I'm reading.

I mean I'm actually super happy how much happens in this game but it felt like I would never catch up...

So we're voting Mathblade Luke? I wanted to vote DP but I do think the corwin slot has a strong chance of flipping red. DP slot has bothered me the entire game and I'm finally feeling a strong scum read on it.

VOTE: Mathblade

This is a Good Vote.

I upset scum!Corwin terribly as town!Rad, so much that he called me out after the game. His emotions are just legit emotions from a person with legit time problems and I believe he would absolutely get upset at people calling him out on inactivity regardless of his alignment.

Another good read towards Math.

I no longer think even a ceph flip can heal this town. There's too much bullshit where likely town players believe so hardcore in their reads and care so little about other players that they are willing to trash the shit out of everyone who gets in their way. I don't know how much I even want to interact here anymore. Sincerely. If this is just a common large game issue, I doubt I'll ever join another one.

VOTE: ceph

This is where they vote Ceph, then this was a good thought process before it,

I no longer think even a ceph flip can heal this town. There's too much bullshit where likely town players believe so hardcore in their reads and care so little about other players that they are willing to trash the shit out of everyone who gets in their way. I don't know how much I even want to interact here anymore. Sincerely. If this is just a common large game issue, I doubt I'll ever join another one.

VOTE: ceph

I want people to justify their

Ceph

townread.

I still want this addressed. I'm failing to see the town perspective from

Ceph's

play here and a no elimination will resolve very little, and indirectly posits that

Ceph

is town.

Sure I'll answer your question.

I believe a town!Ceph recognized the game state was terrible for town. We're just spinning our wheels constantly in different directions with no real cohesion. We've got PRs announcing left and right and surely more to come with more new wagons. Many people were openly stating how long d1 is dragging on and how they hated it. Most people are stating that the game is too fast and they can't keep up, so most people aren't even reading the entire thread at this point and just coming to conclusions anyway because if they don't, people scum read them for it. So many people are being toxic as fuck and shouting at each other making no real progress on anything. I think town!Ceph decided enough was enough and got his top town reads to decide who should be eliminated and made his move.

Or a scum!Ceph I guess could be diverting attention from a frog or mala vote by putting himself in the crossfire and hoping we all come to the town!Ceph conclusion?

I gotta lean toward the more straight forward answer of town!Ceph.

That said, again, I'll vote ceph over taly here if I choose to vote because an any alignment ceph flip at least heals town and a town!Taly flip absolutely destroys it. I don't think we see a scum flip in either of the 2 options so I'd only go for that if I conclude that it's just the smarter town move due to "stats/theory reasons", or if I convince myself that this town needs a ceph flip to progress.

[ProfessorDrapion]

Could probably find more spew of Rad being unaligned or uninformed.


Anyone who thinks Taly can still be a wolf is lol as I think they also pushed Math pretty hard.

[Save The Dragons]

Flavor

Vote Count 5.4

7 MalcolmTucker (BlueBloodedToffee, Mislim Bait, Cytosine and Guanine, Cat Scratch Fever, Malakittens)

4 Malakittens (Best Bird, Rad, butterchurn, ProfessorDrapion, MalcolmTucker)

1 Rad (PookyTheMagicalBear)
1 JohnnyFarrar (Off the Hook)

1 Cat Scratch Fever (JohnnyFarrar)
1 Best Bird (Roden)
1 Mislim Bait (T-Bone)

Not Voting (Taly, RCEnigma, butterflies)

With 18 alive, it takes 10 to yeet.

Deadline: (expired on 2022-08-13 19:28:13)

Mod Notes

[RCEnigma]

Despite missing pages I don’t think I’ve missed any new info. Basically, I think rad is prob!town. I don’t want to vote Malcolm today and I’m fence sitting on mala. I think they could go either way and all of the slots in my Poe are hard defending mala which should just mean mala is scum to me but eh, I’m not like completely sold. I wouldn’t be super heartbroken if the vote was mala but I’d want OTH to go next.

But RCE roles aren’t alignment indicative! No. Flavor is relatively random and roles are loosely flavor related so idc about that argument. Nancy I hear you, hard veto, that’s fine. It’s still where I want to go.

[MalcolmTucker]

2. My voting record is reasonable. I voted Taly D1 when we know Ceph was town. I get

Taly is likely town but that cannot be 100% guaranteed

- what is an absolute guarantee is that I voted to save someone who turned out to be a confirmed townie.

Yeah once you said this I stopped reading and said “this can dis”

Math and Bella spew Taly!Town hard.

Bella hard pushed Taly and Math joined in I believe.

I don't think it's ridiculous to suggest there was some scum theatre going on in regards to Math. The slot was pretty strongly suspected for basically their entire duration in the game and it's perfectly viable one or two members of the scumteam joined in those pushes quite extensively to avoid looking like they were just jumping onto the wagon at the end opportunistically. On balance Taly is unlikely but not impossible, Rad looks much likelier I reckon, but as I've outlined I'm happy to compromise this turn and reluctantly vote Mala if people are sure Rad is townie.

[Rad]

Despite missing pages I don’t think I’ve missed any new info. Basically, I think rad is prob!town. I don’t want to vote Malcolm today and I’m fence sitting on mala. I think they could go either way and all of the slots in my Poe are hard defending mala which should just mean mala is scum to me but eh, I’m not like completely sold. I wouldn’t be super heartbroken if the vote was mala but I’d want OTH to go next.

But RCE roles aren’t alignment indicative! No. Flavor is relatively random and roles are loosely flavor related so idc about that argument. Nancy I hear you, hard veto, that’s fine. It’s still where I want to go.

Why oth over mala? The town!mala scenario isn't impossible but it's ridiculous and there's no reason for her to be angry at me when she's tanking her town play on purpose and facing the consequences.

[ProfessorDrapion]

Malcolm arguably looks worse then Mala but it could be vice versa here.