Open 861: The Turing Test [game over]

[Datisi]

vote count 1.09

with 13 votes in play, it takes 7 to make a decision. day 1 ends in (expired on 2022-08-11 09:45:00).

yeet

KittyTacky [3]:

Bell, Aristeia, GuiltyLion

Vivax [3]:

Loki Dokie, Radical Rat, furtiveglance

furtiveglance [2]:

Roden, Greeting

Greeting [1]:

KittyTacky

Radical Rat [1]:

Vivax

kutiplz [1]:

fireisredsir

not voting [2]:

kutiplz, Dannflor

mod notes

~ this is a mod note.

[Dannflor]

Dann why does scum!Roden link my scumgame and town clear me for it? That’s not a wk, that’s actual evidence.

If Roden has played with you before than they know that doing that is the fastest way to get town read by you

[Radical Rat]

I do sus Radical Rat. It's just that they're leading quite hard on Vivax and it doesn't feel like bussing.

Both of these are true. I am pushing hard on Vivax,

and it isn't bussing

. That's because I'm convinced he's scum, and want to see the thread run red with Mafia blood... Or uh. CPU coolant fluid, I suppose.

lol
you sound like a mafia who's putting this (bolded) in for comedy value to themselves

Honestly, that would be really funny. Perhaps another game, though now I could never get away with it...

[kutiplz]

Town ish vibes:

GuiltyLion: my first tr of the game, very much like they were in our previous games, just overall a gut and soul read
Loki: feeling good about this slot, their solving is logical (like how they are doing it in the thread), I like the effort to look into Vivax old game. In p#602
Greetign: weakest of the three, I feel like her emotions have been genuine. Dunno how to feel about the buddying
Kitty: weakest of them all, a town lean, their tone is genuine and maybe im weak to it.

Scummy vibes:
Dann: I feel like they kinda fell off since the beginning (I know I'm being a hypocrite)
Ari: I dunno how to feel about them trying to buddy everyone and her post have been agenda driven
Vivax: his tone and what not is not what I'm used to. He doesn't feel towny because he's missing his trademark tinfoil. I am sus of him
VOTE: vivax

[Dannflor]

UNVOTE:

Committing to a full reread tomorrow. Apologies for my absence, I’ve been without service and phone posting much of the weekend. I’m not longer hot on the Greeting wagon.

GL, I’m acknowledging your response to me and my initial reaction is disagreement on your reasons for townreading Roden. But I’ll give a more thorough response on reread.

Do you scum read me? I responded to your case on me and you didn't react. You never asked why I called you obvtown either.

Was your response that you were masking? I don't really have a response to that, it doesn't really change how I see your posting.

GL said one of the primary reasons he was town reading you had to do with your interactions with Loki and... It's clear you are familiar with Loki as a player and you handled Loki exactly how I would handle Loki as scum. That is, pretty much immediately come up with a justified town read on the slot after throwing some suspicion that way. I am not sure why GL thinks this is a point in your favor as #366 is the point when you really start playing the game and the very first thing you do is explain your town read on Loki, which is based on this justification about Loki avoiding looking like he's waffling as scum

which is fine! There's nothing inherently scummy about that read, but I don't ascribe it as towny. There's not a lot of progression here. It's a reaction test > immediately finding what you were looking for as towny. Things are rarely so simple when it comes to gathering reads and I'm not sure what GL sees here as towny.

Also in response to GL I don't see the furtive push being very indicative of much given there are 5 scum in the game. Roden doesn't need to be survivalist when there are 4 other people who can push an alternative.

so the answer to if I'm scum reading you? I've cooled off on my initial scum read but I also see no reason to town read you yet. I wanted to give you some space once you started posting but I haven't seen anything yet in your postings or progressions that make me think town. I realize that's a very unsatisfying answer but that's where I'm at.

You can explain why you think I'm obv town if you like, or why you thought that. I'm sort of not sure why you're waiting for someone to ask you about it rather than elaborating with your other reads or responding to the people pushing me.

[Dannflor]

I don't really scum read Kuti

VOTE: Bell

Bell I feel like I know nothing about what you think about anyone

[furtiveglance]

Kuti PLZ!!

While I'm catching up can you give me your takes on the wagons

KittyTacky is definitely in my scumpool, but I'm hearing from Loki and others who I TR that they can play like this as town.

Vivax is probably my top pick to be mafia after this D1, they just seem to be doing a scumtell speedrun, but I also have this gut feeling that Bell will flip red (or rather won't flip).

I think those are the only 2 wagons which are likely to succeed.

[furtiveglance]

Kuti PLZ!!

While I'm catching up can you give me your takes on the wagons

KittyTacky is definitely in my scumpool, but I'm hearing from Loki and others who I TR that they can play like this as town.

Vivax is probably my top pick to be mafia after this D1, they just seem to be doing a scumtell speedrun, but I also have this gut feeling that Bell will flip red (or rather won't flip).

I think those are the only 2 wagons which are likely to succeed.

Maybe other wagons can succeed, but those are the main ones.

[fireisredsir]

thanks for the opinions kuti, good enough for now

VOTE: bell

part of the reason my heart wasn't in the kittytacky wagon was bc i did not trust it to be all town. bell isn't town yet. i like the general strategy of "leave him alone and see if he becomes town later" but we don't really have that option since we can only pressure now

[fireisredsir]

gut feel that all of the leading wagons are not good directions tbh

[fireisredsir]

also scum has a ton of wiggle room in this situation so please later be careful about assumptions that people usually make like "oh scum wouldn't all pile on a wagon together" or "scum must be the ones pushing this counterwagon to scum" because they have 5 people. we need 7 to elim. to get an elim on scum without bussing we need 7/8 town people to agree. that's just not really ever gonna happen if scum doesn't want it to

so scum is free to just mostly do whatever they want and be as unconventional as possible with their votes in order to look unpaired with each other, bc they know that multiple of them will have to flip at some point

[furtiveglance]

gut feel that all of the leading wagons are not good directions tbh

Disagree with this. But I like the vote on Bell.

[Greeting]

My read so far in greeting/west is like I kinda don't like their attempt at buddying me. We had only played two games and idk if that makes them an expert on my meta since I play low activity in ms.


Besides the buddying, from what I have read so far, I have them as town lean ish vibes

I actually have done this in a MU game to a player I recognised from MS (Gypyx) and got "scumread" for it (Gypyx was scum). I was town. But I'm just friendly, and I like seeing familiar faces. It's not alignment indicative.

I am not sure why I can't link Mafia Universe games in here, but the game in question was Pokémaf Generation 1 Mash and the posts are #1839 (mine) and #1866 (Gypyx).

[fireisredsir]

could be vivax, idk this is a small thing but i really liked his last two posts

I do sus Radical Rat. It's just that they're leading quite hard on Vivax and it doesn't feel like bussing.

Both of these are true. I am pushing hard on Vivax,

and it isn't bussing

. That's because I'm convinced he's scum, and want to see the thread run red with Mafia blood... Or uh. CPU coolant fluid, I suppose.

lol
you sound like a mafia who's putting this (bolded) in for comedy value to themselves

VOTE: RadicalRat

meh

ok hear me out

to me that "meh" speaks volumes

it feels pure and honest. a reflection of true thought process. no interest in actually explaining that process for the sake of performance and yet it shines through anyway like a beacon of towniness. it's kinda self-doubt, it kinda undermines his own vote, it's kinda saying "maybe that's not a great reason but i want to vote here anyway"

and if vivax is scum his goal generally seems to be to just throw random thoughts into the thread for the sake of confusing everyone and making people think he's too scattered and random to be scum. so idk why scum with that strategy would suddenly go for the strategy of coming up with a thought trajectory to have but hiding it behind a single "meh"

i too have difficulty understanding how a lot of the thoughts that he's having are genuinely coming from a town brain. but this one feels real (or, i guess it's possible that they are actually scum together and that's why this "meh" hides more thought than it shows. that would be funny). and i think in the past personally i have found that "difficult to understand how town could think like this" is not a reliable scumtell

[fireisredsir]

i might be reading way too much into it lol idk

[furtiveglance]

could be vivax, idk this is a small thing but i really liked his last two posts

I do sus Radical Rat. It's just that they're leading quite hard on Vivax and it doesn't feel like bussing.

Both of these are true. I am pushing hard on Vivax,

and it isn't bussing

. That's because I'm convinced he's scum, and want to see the thread run red with Mafia blood... Or uh. CPU coolant fluid, I suppose.

lol
you sound like a mafia who's putting this (bolded) in for comedy value to themselves

VOTE: RadicalRat

meh

ok hear me out

to me that "meh" speaks volumes

it feels pure and honest. a reflection of true thought process. no interest in actually explaining that process for the sake of performance and yet it shines through anyway like a beacon of towniness. it's kinda self-doubt, it kinda undermines his own vote, it's kinda saying "maybe that's not a great reason but i want to vote here anyway"

and if vivax is scum his goal generally seems to be to just throw random thoughts into the thread for the sake of confusing everyone and making people think he's too scattered and random to be scum. so idk why scum with that strategy would suddenly go for the strategy of coming up with a thought trajectory to have but hiding it behind a single "meh"

i too have difficulty understanding how a lot of the thoughts that he's having are genuinely coming from a town brain. but this one feels real (or, i guess it's possible that they are actually scum together and that's why this "meh" hides more thought than it shows. that would be funny). and i think in the past personally i have found that "difficult to understand how town could think like this" is not a reliable scumtell

I read it the opposite, it's like scum faking calmness. I've always scumread 'meh' and that whole 'shrug' attitude.

[fireisredsir]

im a very meh person so maybe i just relate

[kutiplz]

im a very meh person so maybe i just relate

Vivax is the opposite of meh person tho

[GuiltyLion]

If KittyTacky is scum here then I would suspect they are being actively sacrificed by scum.

I agree with the general idea implied here and in fire's recent posts that scum have a huge role in choosing today's elimination and so if we hit scum then likely there will be scum pushing it by design, but my vague game sense is that Vivax is a scum-chosen wagon moreso than Kitty, Kitty stalled out fairly quickly and to me it felt like Vivax has had more momentum throughout

I get the sense this was just a gamestate read but I'd be curious who think may be specifically scum sacrificing scum!Kitty in that world

[GuiltyLion]

I just... do poorly in mountainous games as I found out. It's slightly demoralizing having no play around PRs to find scum/town with.

what other mountainous games have you played

this feels like a wack excuse for not playing, like what do you do in non-mountainous games when you roll Vanilla Townie? Even if we had a ton of PRs, even if YOU were a PR, we'd still have no info for D1, how does that excuse detached D1 play?

[GuiltyLion]

Bell's simpler, if he's posting then he's town, if not then he's scum. I see this get said every game he's in and I haven't seen it proven wrong yet. His activity has been somewhere in the middle this game so far though, so he's just a town lean.

I would kinda expect Bell to post more than he has so far tbh

in Shakespeare he posted a lot as scum and won the game off it

You expect town Bell or scum Bell to post more? Mentioning how he posted a lot as scum in Shakespeare is confusing me here.

sorry that was unclear, I would expect town!Bell to post more. I don't think I've ever seen him get prodded as town

[GuiltyLion]

GL said one of the primary reasons he was town reading you had to do with your interactions with Loki and... It's clear you are familiar with Loki as a player and you handled Loki exactly how I would handle Loki as scum. That is, pretty much immediately come up with a justified town read on the slot after throwing some suspicion that way. I am not sure why GL thinks this is a point in your favor as #366 is the point when you really start playing the game and the very first thing you do is explain your town read on Loki, which is based on this justification about Loki avoiding looking like he's waffling as scum

which is fine! There's nothing inherently scummy about that read, but I don't ascribe it as towny. There's not a lot of progression here. It's a reaction test > immediately finding what you were looking for as towny. Things are rarely so simple when it comes to gathering reads and I'm not sure what GL sees here as towny.

I want to clarify, I didn't think that Roden took an angle as simple as "initial suspicion -> justified townread". It was the "I don't like what you're doing, but I kinda TR you" that I perceived as a mixed signals type of read, specifically 414, felt to me like he was still uncertain of Loki readwise

honestly though reading it back I'm less convinced of it because 517 does reaffirm that Loki is a solid townread

[furtiveglance]

If KittyTacky is scum here then I would suspect they are being actively sacrificed by scum.

I agree with the general idea implied here and in fire's recent posts that scum have a huge role in choosing today's elimination and so if we hit scum then likely there will be scum pushing it by design, but my vague game sense is that Vivax is a scum-chosen wagon moreso than Kitty, Kitty stalled out fairly quickly and to me it felt like Vivax has had more momentum throughout

I get the sense this was just a gamestate read but I'd be curious who think may be specifically scum sacrificing scum!Kitty in that world

Who is scum on Vivax then? I TR Loki and you said you did too, so that leaves RR and Kuti.

[GuiltyLion]

I haven't liked any of RR's justifications for pushing Vivax and kuti's hop on struck me as convenient as well (not necessarily scummy, I can imagine town!kuti voting there in that manner, but they're not a townread for me it's not hard to imagine it as a scum vote either)

it seems like RR specifically operates from "this is hard to understand and if he's scum then it's maliciously meant to confuse", which I don't find convincing or indicative of scumminess. RR didn't give an answer to my question of why scum!Vivax does the "didn't check if this was hammer". There's not really any reasoning for why scum!Vivax does this but not town!Vivax. There has been a claim that scum!Vivax played this same way and town!Vivax was more logical/easy to understand, which I haven't dug into myself yet, I'm only inclined to give it time of day because Loki has said that, but regardless I don't yet see any compelling reasoning based on this particular game that Vivax is playing in a way that he specifically would not do as town.

[Radical Rat]

RR didn't give an answer to my question of why scum!Vivax does the "didn't check if this was hammer". There's not really any reasoning for why scum!Vivax does this but not town!Vivax.

I thought I had already explained this, but not caring about the hammer demonstrates that Vivax was okay with killing Greeting. Then immediately afterwards, he sheeps your unvote to "give him a chance to respond," blaming the potentially killing vote on panic.

This makes absolutely no sense from a Town POV; why would Town panic induce bloodlust? If anything it makes far more sense to UNvote from a panic reaction as Town.

From a scum POV, there is a situation where one might panic and vote someone: For some reason, Vivax wanted to be on the wagon when Greeting dies, and was afraid the chance would be missed if he'd waited. The only reason I can think of is that Greeting is a bus wagon, and Vivax wanted the credit for participating.

Then, after it becomes apparent that Greeting ISN'T in immediate danger, Vivax backs off. Could be self-consciousness of how weird the vote was, could be that there's no reason to push a bus through if true mislims are still on the table, I don't know. But I wouldn't expect a Town player to transition so suddenly from intent to kill into allowing the target space.


So if the only explanation I can think of is that Greeting was a bus vote, why Vivax over Greeting? For one, sometimes scum does things for no reason, and that would be consistent with Vivax's other plays, so maybe Greeting's still Town in all of this. And if they are both scum, I think Vivax's presence and posting are going to be actively detrimental to the gamestate later on, and we won't have any way to deal with it unless scum decides to test him, which I don't expect to happen. So Vivax takes precedence for me.