Open 861: The Turing Test [game over]

[Roden]

Dann why does scum!Roden link my scumgame and town clear me for it? That’s not a wk, that’s actual evidence.

If Roden has played with you before than they know that doing that is the fastest way to get town read by you

Why does this only apply to me and not like, literally every single person who backed off the moment they realized who Loki was

UNVOTE:

Committing to a full reread tomorrow. Apologies for my absence, I’ve been without service and phone posting much of the weekend. I’m not longer hot on the Greeting wagon.

GL, I’m acknowledging your response to me and my initial reaction is disagreement on your reasons for townreading Roden. But I’ll give a more thorough response on reread.

Do you scum read me? I responded to your case on me and you didn't react. You never asked why I called you obvtown either.

Was your response that you were masking? I don't really have a response to that, it doesn't really change how I see your posting.

GL said one of the primary reasons he was town reading you had to do with your interactions with Loki and... It's clear you are familiar with Loki as a player and you handled Loki exactly how I would handle Loki as scum. That is, pretty much immediately come up with a justified town read on the slot after throwing some suspicion that way. I am not sure why GL thinks this is a point in your favor as #366 is the point when you really start playing the game and the very first thing you do is explain your town read on Loki, which is based on this justification about Loki avoiding looking like he's waffling as scum

which is fine! There's nothing inherently scummy about that read, but I don't ascribe it as towny. There's not a lot of progression here. It's a reaction test > immediately finding what you were looking for as towny. Things are rarely so simple when it comes to gathering reads and I'm not sure what GL sees here as towny.

Also in response to GL I don't see the furtive push being very indicative of much given there are 5 scum in the game. Roden doesn't need to be survivalist when there are 4 other people who can push an alternative.

so the answer to if I'm scum reading you? I've cooled off on my initial scum read but I also see no reason to town read you yet. I wanted to give you some space once you started posting but I haven't seen anything yet in your postings or progressions that make me think town. I realize that's a very unsatisfying answer but that's where I'm at.

You can explain why you think I'm obv town if you like, or why you thought that. I'm sort of not sure why you're waiting for someone to ask you about it rather than elaborating with your other reads or responding to the people pushing me.

My response was me showing that the things you were scum reading me for weren't scum indicative for me. You basically scum read me for something out of your own meta, so when I explained with examples how your case doesn't really apply to me it sticks out that you don't have anything to say about that.

Projecting your own scum game onto me again by theorizing how scum!me plays around town!Loki also just sorely sticks out because I feel like it's really clear that our playstyles aren't alike at all. You very much seem to like having attention on you no matter your alignment, but I don't. I know I'm already a pretty easy elim as town and actively seeking aggression as scum is just a dumb move for me, I'd just throw out town reads to pacify and avoid heat if I were scum because I know that's all I really need to do to survive D1.

I was waiting to see if you would naturally ask about my read on you because it would strengthen why I think you're obvtown. I think you have a very self-centered view on the game and how you think people would/should play. I also think you have enough confidence as town to pursue anyone who you think might be trying to pocket you, and since I did town read you early without explaining it I expected that would ping you in some way but it never really did. I don't think that alone is AI but it vibes in a way that makes me think you're playing around me weird.

[Roden]

Dann would I be incorrect in saying that you secretly want me dead today but don't think there's enough momentum to get it done

Because I'm really getting that feeling even though my name has been brought up as a possible elim choice a few times today

[Roden]

VOTE: Vivax

I don't trust the Kitty wagon.

[Roden]

E-1 btw.

[kutiplz]

How much time I left this phase, I am traveling all day to go visit my parents

[Dannflor]

Thinking more about Dann's point about Kitty being 'sacrificed', I don't know if I really think it's all that likely because I don't get the sense from the current gamestate that there's a particular wagon being pushed by scum with an agenda

Yeah, I've cooled off on that take.

I've really been looking for potential scum theatre because I *really* think the go-to for a large scum team is to ham it up. But I might be lookin gfor stuff that's not there and the setup itself probably changes what my assumptions should be.

[Dannflor]

I was waiting to see if you would naturally ask about my read on you because it would strengthen why I think you're obvtown. I think you have a very self-centered view on the game and how you think people would/should play. I also think you have enough confidence as town to pursue anyone who you think might be trying to pocket you, and since I did town read you early without explaining it I expected that would ping you in some way but it never really did. I don't think that alone is AI but it vibes in a way that makes me think you're playing around me weird.

it is literally 75% of the reason I voted you

I thought it was a fake read and said so in #248

[Dannflor]

Dann would I be incorrect in saying that you secretly want me dead today but don't think there's enough momentum to get it done

Because I'm really getting that feeling even though my name has been brought up as a possible elim choice a few times today

you would be incorrect

I don't town read you but as the day has gone on I've become increasingly unsure of all my takes. I would not be unhappy if you died but I don't really feel great enough about it to lead a wagon.

[Dannflor]

All I know is that my gut reaction to the Vivax wagon is disgust

VOTE: KittyTacky

[Dannflor]

I didn't realize Dann was voting me. Huh. I'm town fyi.
Why are you voting town?

Why should I think you're town?

[Dannflor]

Why does this only apply to me and not like, literally every single person who backed off the moment they realized who Loki was

I'm just saying it's not reason to clear you like Loki says it is

just like it's not a reason to clear me

or anyone else

[Dannflor]

My response was me showing that the things you were scum reading me for weren't scum indicative for me. You basically scum read me for something out of your own meta, so when I explained with examples how your case doesn't really apply to me it sticks out that you don't have anything to say about that.

I'll try to be less annoyed in my response because I think that tone is causing you to make a lot of assumptions about me that are frankly wrong.

I thought your entrance was scummy. Still do. You said that it wasn't scum indicative for you (essentially a self-meta case). Unfortunately, that doesn't really do anything for me. People tend to try to play similarly as town and scum. I understand that your defense is that my idea of what scummy is, doesn't apply to you. Honestly? I think if you were town who honestly thought that and scum who thought you were being pushed for the wrong reason you'd have the same reply. I still don't like that entrance nor your play after that. You are also weirdly focused on me and defending yourself when I am supposed to be an obv town read.

Projecting your own scum game onto me again by theorizing how scum!me plays around town!Loki also just sorely sticks out because I feel like it's really clear that our playstyles aren't alike at all. You very much seem to like having attention on you no matter your alignment, but I don't. I know I'm already a pretty easy elim as town and actively seeking aggression as scum is just a dumb move for me, I'd just throw out town reads to pacify and avoid heat if I were scum because I know that's all I really need to do to survive D1.

I don't know where this idea that I'm scum reading you for something out of my own meta comes from. It seems like you just made that up. The part with the interactions with Loki comes from observing a large number of people interact with that exact same slot. I also don't think it is a reason you are scum. I think it is not a reason you are town forever. I don't like that people are clearing you or chucking you in a town lean bin.

I really think even with your questioning of me that something feels off and fake. It feels like you are trying to show that you have progressions and are sorting but I'm questioning what you are hoping to accomplish with this line of questioning on me. It feels empty.

I don't know where the idea comes from that I like having attention on me comes from. I guess it's irrelevant. Throwing out town reads to pacify and avoid heat is exactly what I don't think you are town for!!

I feel like I just talked myself back into a scum read of you but I need to take a break and come back to the thread to be sure it's not just my annoyance talking

[Vivax]

You remind me of a player on TL, my former community, Dann

[furtiveglance]

also this is going to sound somewhat egotistic and possibly rub people the wrong way but my hit rate on day1 wagons is 70%[7/10 completed games where I am voting for the day 1 eliminated player, that player has flipped mafia.]



I can be a bit of a petulant child at times but it is generally because I am usually right.

[furtiveglance]

I don't think my reads are changing again today.

[GuiltyLion]

I've really been looking for potential scum theatre because I *really* think the go-to for a large scum team is to ham it up. But I might be lookin gfor stuff that's not there and the setup itself probably changes what my assumptions should be.

the set-up discourages D1 bussing via the free point for town if scum is limmed D1 though right? And then I have been thinking being "obv-town" doesn't really help scum all that much cause if you get put up for a test people are gonna wonder why mafia put "obvious town" in there. So I'm not sure strong distancing is actually super effective here, scum probably ideally want to have a couple members who are influential enough to each shape one of the Turing test days towards where they want it.

[Greeting]

I actually changed my mind and decided that I don't feel like voting

Vivax

today. I feel like he would have a lot more to gain keeping his vote on me and bussing me, rather than hesitating. Still, if he's town, I am worried about a scenario in which he is pitted against a deepwolf and loses. And, to be fair, his interaction with me feels genuine.

[Greeting]

Oh and I asked Kuti cause I thought they'd like to be asked about their opinion and the read on Greeting could prove useful down the line.

My read so far in greeting/west is like I kinda don't like their attempt at buddying me. We had only played two games and idk if that makes them an expert on my meta since I play low activity in ms.


Besides the buddying, from what I have read so far, I have them as town lean ish vibes

Looking back, this feels like an exagerration of what I actually did. I merely said hello and that your tone is similar. I haven't interacted with you any further, how is that buddying?

[Dannflor]

And then I have been thinking being "obv-town" doesn't really help scum all that much cause if you get put up for a test people are gonna wonder why mafia put "obvious town" in there

one scenario I can imagine is one where mafia want to get rid of a specific voice because of their reads or because they are serving town cohesion

but they'd have to be confident in that being more beneficial than trying to an easier point

[Vivax]

I actually changed my mind and decided that I don't feel like voting

Vivax

today. I feel like he would have a

lot more to gain keeping his vote on me and bussing me

, rather than hesitating. Still, if he's town, I am worried about a scenario in which he is pitted against a deepwolf and loses. And, to be fair, his interaction with me feels genuine.

Screams internally

[Greeting]

KittyTacky, what is your read on Aristeia?

I second this question. And, mine from 822.

[Greeting]

I actually changed my mind and decided that I don't feel like voting

Vivax

today. I feel like he would have a

lot more to gain keeping his vote on me and bussing me

, rather than hesitating. Still, if he's town, I am worried about a scenario in which he is pitted against a deepwolf and loses. And, to be fair, his interaction with me feels genuine.

Screams internally

A scum can bus a townie too? As in, throw under the bus?

[fireisredsir]

hmmm

[Loki Dokie]

I've really been looking for potential scum theatre because I *really* think the go-to for a large scum team is to ham it up. But I might be lookin gfor stuff that's not there and the setup itself probably changes what my assumptions should be.

the set-up discourages D1 bussing via the free point for town if scum is limmed D1 though right? And then I have been thinking being "obv-town" doesn't really help scum all that much cause if you get put up for a test people are gonna wonder why mafia put "obvious town" in there. So I'm not sure strong distancing is actually super effective here, scum probably ideally want to have a couple members who are influential enough to each shape one of the Turing test days towards where they want it.

Well it would depend on whether scum is more interested in saving themselves as opposed to killing obvtown, right? If they want to save themselves, they’d be far more likely to select townies who are more easily miselimable but if they want to get rid of obvtown badly enough, I could also see scum sacrificing weaker players to make that happen, because unlike a traditional gladiate, both of them die and are removed from the game.

[Loki Dokie]

I actually changed my mind and decided that I don't feel like voting

Vivax

today. I feel like he would have a lot more to gain keeping his vote on me

and bussing me,

rather than hesitating. Still, if he's town, I am worried about a scenario in which he is pitted against a deepwolf and loses. And, to be fair, his interaction with me feels genuine.

Wtf?