Open 861: The Turing Test [game over]

[furtiveglance]

like imagining worst cases here

say dann is maf. we vote for kuti. okay, oops. we're 1-1 now, but maf lost a strong player who was widely townread. like... okay? im not too sad about that trade

say kuti is maf. we vote out dann. um, oops. now we're 1-1, maf was able to sneak a player out who hadn't done much, and also get rid of a strong town player who was widely townread, and did not get at all punished for that

I get this, but I don't really agree, I'm always just gonna take a punt on who I think it is.

[furtiveglance]

like imagining worst cases here

say dann is maf. we vote for kuti. okay, oops. we're 1-1 now, but maf lost a strong player who was widely townread. like... okay? im not too sad about that trade

say kuti is maf. we vote out dann. um, oops. now we're 1-1, maf was able to sneak a player out who hadn't done much, and also get rid of a strong town player who was widely townread, and did not get at all punished for that

I get this, but I don't really agree, I'm always just gonna take a punt on who I think it is.

I just realised I disagree more fundamentally - I don't think Dannflor was the 'stronger player', or even playing better in this game. They had some thread influence but when you compare the two players' ISOs, they were both making reads and being somewhat active.

[Loki Dokie]

like imagining worst cases here

say dann is maf. we vote for kuti. okay, oops. we're 1-1 now, but maf lost a strong player who was widely townread. like... okay? im not too sad about that trade

say kuti is maf. we vote out dann. um, oops. now we're 1-1, maf was able to sneak a player out who hadn't done much, and also get rid of a strong town player who was widely townread, and did not get at all punished for that

Do you understand that neither one comes back to the game or am I totally misconstruing the mech here? Aren’t both slots removed from the game?

[Loki Dokie]

from day 2 and on, there is no votes to eliminate; instead, each day there is a turing test.

the two players selected by the mafia are announced and removed from the game, but not flipped

. the votes are locked between the two selected players, and the living players must vote for the person in the pair they believe to be mafia.
~ if a mafia member is voted out, town scores 1 point.
~ if a townie is voted out, mafia scores 1 point.

@fire

[Vivax]

Dannflor has a very placid tone about his posts.
Maybe my read is wrong, but this is the type of read I make where I'd say colour me impressed if someone is not town (Dann).

[fireisredsir]

yes im aware of how the game works

but like, maf losing maf dann is a big loss to the maf team, imo. town losing town dann is a big loss to the town team, imo

whichever loss it is, it already happened. but its a bigger loss overall for town if we lose the point on top of losing dann. and it's not really that big of a loss overall for town if we lose the point but maf lose dann

i guess it's mitigating losses. maybe thats not a very convincing argument idk but i think it's valuable

[fireisredsir]

like imagining worst cases here

say dann is maf. we vote for kuti. okay, oops. we're 1-1 now, but maf lost a strong player who was widely townread. like... okay? im not too sad about that trade

say kuti is maf. we vote out dann. um, oops. now we're 1-1, maf was able to sneak a player out who hadn't done much, and also get rid of a strong town player who was widely townread, and did not get at all punished for that

I get this, but I don't really agree, I'm always just gonna take a punt on who I think it is.

yea i mean i also just think it's kuti. im not gonna vote kuti if i don't think it's kuti

thats more an argument for why i don't really have much interest in wifoming myself into voting dann

[furtiveglance]

like imagining worst cases here

say dann is maf. we vote for kuti. okay, oops. we're 1-1 now, but maf lost a strong player who was widely townread. like... okay? im not too sad about that trade

say kuti is maf. we vote out dann. um, oops. now we're 1-1, maf was able to sneak a player out who hadn't done much, and also get rid of a strong town player who was widely townread, and did not get at all punished for that

I get this, but I don't really agree, I'm always just gonna take a punt on who I think it is.

yea i mean i also just think it's kuti. im not gonna vote kuti if i don't think it's kuti

thats more an argument for why i don't really have much interest in wifoming myself into voting dann

Yeah I see that. Do you think scum!Kuti calls Kitty town right as Kitty is about to flip? For some reason that's my biggest reason for thinking Kuti is town.

[fireisredsir]

it wasn't right before the flip tho. it was when wagons were tied 3-3 with kitty and vivax, and they expressed a weak townlean on kitty while finding a scumread on vivax and voting there

[Loki Dokie]

yes im aware of how the game works

but like, maf losing maf dann is a big loss to the maf team, imo. town losing town dann is a big loss to the town team, imo

whichever loss it is, it already happened. but its a bigger loss overall for town if we lose the point on top of losing dann. and it's not really that big of a loss overall for town if we lose the point but maf lose dann

i guess it's mitigating losses. maybe thats not a very convincing argument idk but i think it's valuable

In terms of the vote, we guess wrong - either way - we lose the point. It isn’t worse one way or the other - which way we guess wrong, only if we guess wrong, so your argument wrt that part of it, really doesn’t make much sense.

[furtiveglance]

Town ish vibes:

GuiltyLion: my first tr of the game, very much like they were in our previous games, just overall a gut and soul read
Loki: feeling good about this slot, their solving is logical (like how they are doing it in the thread), I like the effort to look into Vivax old game. In p#602
Greetign: weakest of the three, I feel like her emotions have been genuine. Dunno how to feel about the buddying
Kitty: weakest of them all, a town lean, their tone is genuine and maybe im weak to it.

Scummy vibes:
Dann: I feel like they kinda fell off since the beginning (I know I'm being a hypocrite)
Ari: I dunno how to feel about them trying to buddy everyone and her post have been agenda driven
Vivax: his tone and what not is not what I'm used to. He doesn't feel towny because he's missing his trademark tinfoil. I am sus of him
VOTE: vivax

This is the post I'm on about. Fire is right about the timing of the vote. Even so, I townread this post.

[Vivax]

Town ish vibes:

GuiltyLion: my first tr of the game, very much like they were in our previous games, just overall a gut and soul read
Loki: feeling good about this slot, their solving is logical (like how they are doing it in the thread), I like the effort to look into Vivax old game. In p#602
Greetign: weakest of the three, I feel like her emotions have been genuine. Dunno how to feel about the buddying
Kitty: weakest of them all, a town lean, their tone is genuine and maybe im weak to it.

Scummy vibes:
Dann: I feel like they kinda fell off since the beginning (I know I'm being a hypocrite)
Ari: I dunno how to feel about them trying to buddy everyone and her post have been agenda driven
Vivax: his tone and what not is not what I'm used to. He doesn't feel towny because he's missing his trademark tinfoil. I am sus of him
VOTE: vivax

This is the post I'm on about. Fire is right about the timing of the vote. Even so, I townread this post.

One of the first things Dann did was mention that he didn't like an easy townread from Ari

[Loki Dokie]

I don't really scum read Kuti

VOTE: Bell

Bell I feel like I know nothing about what you think about anyone

All I know is that my gut reaction to the Vivax wagon is disgust

VOTE: KittyTacky

Dann being a very late vote on Kitty isn’t clearing especially since he also said he thought he was being bussed.

What do people make of this post?

[Loki Dokie]

they seem to be somewhat tongue-in-cheek

but the random town reads from Aristeia make me uneasy, especially in this setup

True @Vivax, he did say that and so did Kuti, so don’t understand this is helpful?

[Vivax]

in fact its wholly irrelevant to what I think of Kittys alignment!

It's not irrelevant to what you think of Dannflor
It's not irrelevant to think about Dannflor's alignment
Unless your plan is to withhold information on his alignment, is it that?

I don't know I didn't get a reply to these questions from Aristeia. Made before we limmed KT

[Loki Dokie]

If KittyTacky is scum here then I would suspect they are being actively sacrificed by scum.

Yes, here he pretty much is referring to kitty wagon as a bus but yet calls Vivax wagon, not wrong but “disgusting”. If he thinks Kitty’s being bussed than why is Vivax wagon “disgusting”?

My issue is again, similar to the “weird/funnier” juxtaposition on my slot is two statements that don’t make a whole lot of sense.

Saying Vivax wagon is wrong is fine but “disgusting” clearly implies that it is being scum driven, right? So which one is it?

[Loki Dokie]

I honestly don’t know anymore but why did Dann express no curiosity whatsoever in why fire unvoted me?

[Loki Dokie]

I don’t see that at all. This is exactly how I respond to nonsensical shitpushes on me. And I’ll say it again: why did Dann have no reaction whatsoever to you unvoting based pff of knowing who I was?

if Dann had voted me first and unvoted me because he realized who I was, would you have absolutely no reaction to that whatsoever?

Like wouldn’t you ask a question like, is that nia or town indicative for them? because I sure as hell would want to know why the person I just sheeped unvoted. I wouldn’t just make some ridiculous comment like that.

@fire

@Bell, Idk but wouldn’t scum be most likely to start out with their strongest scum player not the weakest? I also question whether Roden who’s not a buddy jumps on me like that. If he’s scum, does it really make that much sense that he’d jump on me like that if Dann is town? I guess that all depends on whether or not you sr Roden or not but I think they have high buddy equity, especially based off of that game I linked.

@fire, did you ever answer this because this is a major sticking point for me.

[fireisredsir]

i didn't really care to go back and forth on it bc i don't think im ever changing your mind on anything tbh

but my thoughts on it were that personally, yes i probably would wonder if the positions were reversed, and i would then probably go try to look for who you are myself bc i would be curious. but i would probably do that as either alignment, it isn't specific to me being town

but dann has said (multiple times even) that he doesn't really care as much about going back through people's past games and looking at them to get a meta feel for them. so i think he's probably just less interested in that sort of thing in general, and cares more about focusing on the current game

so i think it's believable that he wouldn't care much about me unvoting. and i don't think it makes him particularly more likely to be scum bc i think it mostly comes down to a personality thing. if he thought that he would do it as town, then he probably would be more likely to do it as scum in order to fit in and look like he was re-evaluating in a genuine way

the only thing that keeping his vote on you is going to do is make you think that he's scummy for doing it, and if he were scum, he would probably care about preventing that reaction from happening

[Loki Dokie]

He did correctly alt-guess me in a previous game and no one including me did anything to point him in that direction, so I could argue that perhaps he just didn’t care, which I find odd if he’s actually town here.

And I’m asking you this because if you can explain it in a way to me that makes sense for town!Dann. yes, it would totally change my mind.

I’m obviously still on the fence here but Dann has fooled me before as scum and again, my point being: he jumped on me for essentially ignoring/failing to comment on your post, yet he has 0 interest in why you unvoted me. It’s inconsistent.

[Loki Dokie]

I’m extremely certain that had he any idea who I actually was att, then that would absolutely be true -

in this particular setup

(he would also obviously never sr me for that if town as well) - but he obviously didn’t. He in fact, tries to make a very similar meta argument with Roden who unlike Dann, did very clearly know who I was, so saying he would have been less likely to have done that isn’t clearing because he obviously didn’t know it was me. That could be because this is a male alt and perhaps it wouldn’t have occurred to him?

Point is, if he didn’t know my main, he wasn’t more likely to pocket me. I don’t want to get this wrong and maybe he is town who played somewhat scummy and Kuti is scum who was playing somewhat townie but I really don’t understand your confidence on Dann!town. I can see Vivax’s argument, though even he doesn’t seem to be anywhere as confident on that read.

So maybe tell me your reasoning for Kuti being scum then? I’ll take anything to help get some clarity here.

[Vulture]

Not to Townslip teehee omg but I just realized that the people who we're voting on aren't actually here anymore and I thought they were like. Just not posting lmfao.

[Vulture]

Wolves down bad.

Not to form a wolfy little narrative but I kind of want to bumrush through this day with a Dann elim. Feel decently okay about him being a wolf, and I think maybe the idea was for someone to like, really build up a case on Dann and flip and go throughout the game, hope wolves can get up to like 2-2 and then send it home for them.
Seems simplistic but this game is ? right now.

Oh, no shade to anyone in particular. Was just worldbuilding a potential for why Dann, if a wolf, was put up as an option.

It makes someone look good to be able to catch the deepwolf out, just like that. So, if he is wolf, discussion is good and all but denying someone the chance to like... nurture a ""good solve"" or credit as a wolf would be good.

Then again, I also think that this setup is like, super WIFOM-y and poweryeeting Dann prooooobably isn't good either. Even if I want to, due diligence, etc. I wanna feel like the strategist here.

Ugh.

It doesn't really make sense to start with your strongest player in this position though, because you're already down a voice to help you sort through things, and you're like...

When you make your strongest player the one in the hot seat they lose the ability to vouch for themselves in a large capacity, because everything's under scrutiny. A weaker team might struggle to help push them through as the vote without making it obvious they're paired after the flip.

:V It's a temporary benefit for the present.

@Vulture I would really love to understand the thought process here.

Mostly just working through what a wolf team would, or could do. Not so much tied to like, exactly what was posted this game but the theory and how much of it is steeped in WIFOM.

Came into the day thinking with that nomination Dann was likely with some bad posts from before and some ones I liked from Kuti. And then sat there and went "but that would be dumb to throw himself up there wouldn't it, if he was a wolf. He can't do the heavy lifting. But oh no WIFOM." Because like in all reality maybe the wolves are "weak" and letting WIFOM do the lifting. Or like, someone more townread exists. Dunno.

I'm not in a state to really play or think about the game frankly and probably won't be for about a week in great detail, so theorycrafting broader strokes is more accessible than the nitty gritty.

[Vulture]

That being said I thought Dann was like, also able to show up and /talk/ lol but knowing that he can't... actually probably doesn't change that much but will factor it in.

[Aristeia]

i think Bell/Dann are S/S and this game is basically over