Open 862: Diffusion of Power (Game Over)

[Bellaphant]

Bella, you town read Somnus before 330 so can you go back a little further please?

What do you like about how they approached Enchant? Can you quote post it?

What response regarding low hanging fruit? Again, can you quote it please?

Pedit - What do you think about Norwegian's 484 ?

Pedit again - I don't particularly like that answer Bella. I feel like you're hedging your reads this game and scum reading Norwegian is a very safe take for you to have right now.

@Fun Times - It's not a silly question to ask because you use meta as a defence for everything. So it's like 'forget what you think because x, y and z think we're town because meta so you should too!' which I don't really buy.

Pedit again - How is it hypocritical?

I'll go back later and quote but enchant claims n5 doc or something really early and somnus just asks sensible questions.

Much later, probably after my read, but still very much about my read going into n1, which is what I was talking about, he says that nm and enchant are both lhf (I think in response to someone else saying it, maybe me???) But he doesn't want to elim either right now. It felt very organic.

I'll check that norwee posts in a bit, but you accused me of 'hedging my reads' day one and I wasn't, in fact I asked for yours in response to me being explicit and you basically responsed by calling me 'sassy' instead. So, some reads?

Plus, my norwee read was fairly early and I actually started the Alinaa wagon, (my vote was formatted wrong and didn't count but I'm p sure I was first, if not second), so I really don't know where this accusation has come from? Especially not twice.

[Bellaphant]

Andante, please relax.

IM RIGHT!!! LIKE!! HYPEEEE!!! I FOUND A WOLF!!! I'm excited!!

but sure whatever, I'm out

-Andante

Yes yes... we will quote your name long in the credits list somewhere...

But the true credit obviously goes to the worlds most clever detective!

@bbt post?? The link you linked goes back to mod post and I'm not seeing anything in the actual 484: it's more detective memes. They were and still are bad but nai bad.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I feel like that is Town!Norwegian trying to claim early credit for a scum!Ali flip.

Given Ali flipped town, then 484 seems unlikely to come from scum.

Will get to your longer post when I can

[Bellaphant]

That's sweet. I feel pocketed already but I'm a sucker for compliments.

I still will be voting for the last person to join the game. It probably won't mean much though, and even less now that I've explained it. But I'm a man of my word.

It's Enchant.

Likely a fake claim.

I don't particularly like it.

VOTE: Enchant

Well, I'm a sheep so...

VOTE: Enchant

I don't put much stock in a page 2 claim, especially in this setup, but why would this be scum indicative? Like, is the thought that Enchant decided to fake-claim as mafia here thinking we'd all keep him around just for his alleged Night 5 result? I'm not being snarky here. I'm genuinely curious.

I meant to do my homework and look at if this is the kind of setup where mass-claim even matters at some point or if Day 1/2 PRs are considered more valuable than 4/5, but Youtube was beckoning and 1 video led to 14 and here we are.

He could, sure. And we're probably treading into the deep waters of WIFOM and without knowing the ins and outs of how this setup tends to play out, my gut tells me that claiming on page 2 probably wasn't the best idea.

But since he did, does claiming Night 5 Cop as mafia seem like a +EV play here? Do you think he discussed this in a PT with 2 hypothetically buddies pre-game as a good idea or just decided to like...wing it as mafia out of boredom as soon as the game started?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You feel those posts can't come from scum!Somnus Bella? They're pretty basic...

I think it was Fun Times (?) who spoke about scum liking to talk about Mech. Do you think Somnus' posts fall into that category and do you agree with that assertion from Fun Times?

[Bellaphant]

I meant to quote the somnus post before that, about RVs. The enchant discussion was with you, bbt!

...but that isn't how the aliana wagon happened. Like, I certainly didn't vote because town!norwee found a scum slip?? Also, it says more about fun times, surely? I'm not seeing it at all.

P-edit, if that's all they do, yes. But I haven't quoted somnus' full iso, he's clearly not doing that. They seem to be involved in thinking about the game critically throughout their day one.

[Bellaphant]

Not all mech spec is scummy. Enchant wasn't scummy in deptuy cultists. Just mech spec is scummy, yes.

[Gamma Emerald]

I do wanna know why BBT thought me/Somnus were good cop checks btw

I thought you were a good check because I didn't like some of your D1 play - your vote on Ali despite appearing to scum read me felt bad 309 and your reasoning for town reading both Somnus and Penguin were equally bad 410 and 435

I wasn’t really SR you in 309, that could have been communicated better
I can’t really say anything about 410/435 that’ll satisfy you because that’s just how I play most of the time

[Bellaphant]

I try Ans fail to vote aliana on page 9, you and frogs vote on page 12, a VC comes and I re-add my vote, just to clarify what I said about aliana.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I wasn't really speaking to you regarding the Ali wagon, I was more interested in your town read of Somnus. You claimed a town read on him in 330 and I was asking you to show me where this read formed. Those 3 posts you quoted could easily come from either alignment a sit involved a lot of mech spec so I'm still unsure how you formed that town read unless there are other posts before 330?

I don't understand the reference to town!Norwegian finding a scum slip? Or the reference to Fun Times either.

[Gamma Emerald]

I feel like that is Town!Norwegian trying to claim early credit for a scum!Ali flip.

Given Ali flipped town, then 484 seems unlikely to come from scum.

Will get to your longer post when I can

???
I don’t think anyone would have actually given him credit?

[Gamma Emerald]

You?

Sry.
Ok so i've been feeling that both Enchant and N_M are suspicious like you've stated yourself. But these are the typical "mislim" players so if i'm wrong about a player being scum it's likely in those two.
PenguinPower i don't think has been very townie. Mostly their day 2 has been mech talk, and then just responding to stuff otherwise. Which is a bit like filler imo.
Goldfish seriously needs to be more active, only an early unexplained claim and then afk is scummy. I can't read their townie motivation for what they did.

Otherwise i find most slots townie or null. Want Jake to post more.

I think NM is town

if

when Norwe flips mafia.

No reason for teammate to throw self at sword to give NM towncred.

So you think it’s white knight versus buddy defense? Okay.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Gamma, I'm not saying he

should

have been given credit.

I'm saying he is trying to claim credit which would imply he didn't know that Ali would flip green.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Gamma, can you at least try to explain those town reads please?

[Gamma Emerald]

VOTE: froggodoggo

Why?

I believe I disliked how his FT push didn’t feel like a real thought process
But atp that’s not really relevant to how I want to approach that slot
UNVOTE:

Feels like an opportunistic and grimy vote choice

Can you explain how Enchant's vote was opportunistic?

Felt like there was semi-substantial pressure on FT from Norwee and froggo
The vote thus felt like trying to predict wagon dynamics and tack on an extra vote
Enchant recently got criticized for a quickhammer so I kinda think scum!Enchant might rubberband into trying to vote very early on what he thinks is a viable lim wagon

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I disagree about Frog's push, I think he had some relevant points.

As for Enchant, that all seems pretty reasonable. Do you think FT was the 'easiest' vote Enchant could make? I would argue voting Frog would have been more opportunistic, would you agree?

[Gamma Emerald]

Gamma, I'm not saying he

should

have been given credit.

I'm saying he is trying to claim credit which would imply he didn't know that Ali would flip green.

Why do you think he would expect that?

Gamma, can you at least try to explain those town reads please?

I’ll try
Somnus was kinda a joke TR but I have struggles with approaching seemingly insurmountable tasks and that applies to reading thru mafia games. This was not as severe a case as instances I’ve felt myself but there was a vibe I picked up.
Penguin in a prior scumgame had been kinda tepid in the voting department because “muh wagonomics”. Him self voting here kinda felt opposed to that weaksauce play. In addition, I had in a game quite a while back self-voted myself to E-2 or something like it, and used reactions to it to bolster my reads. Tbf this is slightly a case of projecting my play onto Penguin’s as I have established history of using my vote as a deliberate pressure tool, but idk whether Penguin does that ever.

[Gamma Emerald]

I disagree about Frog's push, I think he had some relevant points.

As for Enchant, that all seems pretty reasonable. Do you think FT was the 'easiest' vote Enchant could make? I would argue voting Frog would have been more opportunistic, would you agree?

Frog was the most opportunistic vote possible I’d say but I still think the FT vote was sketchy for the reason I laid out.

[Gamma Emerald]

Not gonna lie, I didn't realize we were ending the day like 36 hours into it, we definitely should not have ended it before Goldfish spoke. my bad! I mean, end of the day, no regrets? I legit SRed them, they self hammered, and then I was solving, and they flipped town, and I went "are you serious right now??" what TOWN self hammers there?? like dude.. oh well moving on, my next confident read is Not_Mafia being maf here, but like, we're not gonna speed through D2, woooooo I mean, I'm always down for speedgame... but I don't think anyone else would appreciate it lol

-Andante

Btw to address why this didn’t ping me like Norwee’s posts at day start, this feels like actual thought process. Norwee’s posts felt like they didn’t serve much purpose beyond displaying a reaction.

[Gamma Emerald]

Actually, reading 410 more closely I wrote out the wrong reasoning, while the stuff I wrote is kinda applicable it’s not what I initially TRed Somnus for
What I actually TRed was the part about having to re-read because posts were blending together. I also relate to that and the specific need to re-read seems town-indicative. It could be faked but I doubt Somnus thinks to fake that.

[Gamma Emerald]

With relation to Frog, your argument is invalid as Frog was not posting in game at the time of Ali being close to being elimmed.

So, yeah, he voted for Ali. But he voted when it was completely safe to do so and Ali was in no real danger of being elimmed. His gripe was with the way you backed Ali into a corner and every option she had was painted as being scummy.

I don’t think FT painted EVERY option Alianna had as scummy. I don’t think that’s what you’re saying but might as well say SK.

[Gamma Emerald]

Say so*
got some bleed over from C9++

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You're right.

I meant more in terms of not posting and then posting. Alianna was given a chance to explain reads or look at her wagon composition from numerous people, including Fun Times.

Pedit - Haha

[Enchant]

VOTE: froggodoggo

Why?

I believe I disliked how his FT push didn’t feel like a real thought process
But atp that’s not really relevant to how I want to approach that slot
UNVOTE:

Feels like an opportunistic and grimy vote choice

Can you explain how Enchant's vote was opportunistic?

Felt like there was semi-substantial pressure on FT from Norwee and froggo
The vote thus felt like trying to predict wagon dynamics and tack on an extra vote
Enchant recently got criticized for a quickhammer so I kinda think scum!Enchant might rubberband into trying to vote very early on what he thinks is a viable lim wagon

But i got criticized as town.

As mafia i can as well kingdom come everything on sight, and there's virtually nothing stopping me.

[Enchant]

Not all mech spec is scummy. Enchant wasn't scummy in deptuy cultists. Just mech spec is scummy, yes.

1. You was cult in that game.
2. I claimed not CCed PR, and conftowned due of that, nothing to do with "scummy not scummy".