Mini Normal 2279: VGSR - GAME OVER

[Nero Cain]

to you know actually catch up.

I think a lot of his oneliners are unneeded and he could just read the game and give his conclusion. It makes me feel like he's just puffing up his post count to look active.

[Ausuka]

I just don't really get the hutmeil case. Like I could maybe buy into

he's not being as active as normal

but beyond that its ????

Part of me just feels like voting out MND or Gandhi would be fairly constructive b/c I don't trust Gandhi's

leave me until day 3

and I think MND's plodding catchup is fake.

Ok, I'm going to lay out the case for Hutmeil in this post all together. If it still doesn't go through at least I tried

So, the #1 thing for me is how reactive Hutmeil has been. Almost everything he's done has been *in response* to the actions of someone else, and he's shown very little that looks like genuine scumhunting. In fact, I think unvoting furtive after RVS is one of the only things he's really done proactively and even then you could argue it's just convenient for scum Hutmeil to not be voting anyone.

I'll give examples to demonstrate this point. In 243 Hutmeil begins his push on Juice after being promoted by Frog and encouraged in that direction. Later, in 345 hoppip encourages Hutmeil to place a vote - he quickly responds that he will do so later, and is indeed willing to place an E-1 vote on Juice. I think it's fairly shady how the development of this read was influenced so heavily by others - and it'd be one thing if this was an one time thing, but it's a consistent pattern. He only gives a readlist once I press him for one. He becomes more active after being pressured, and most of this is just responding to people talking to or about him. For example in 525 he's responding to Frog and me, and suggests Frog is scum for pushing him, but in response to Frog changing his read, Hutmeil changes his in turn. I challenge him on it - 613 - in a way that suggests he should still be scumreading Frog . And in reaction to this, hutmeil goes back to scumleaning Frog, and waffles that the action was "townie and scummy at the same time" - given he explicitly made a post calling Frog's change of mind townie, I have a very difficult time buying this. I think again, he is very reactive to the other players of this game, and it does not look like he's making an effort to find scum independently, but rather to avoid making any obvious mistakes and skating by.

Hutmeil displays a lot of conventionally scummy behaviour which I believe is in fact actually scummy. This is definitely similar to the previous point, but there's not much content in his ISO and there's nothing that makes me feel like he's genuinely uninformed and trying to find scum. I believe his readslist post - 408 is a shining example of this. His reads don't have any serious level of thought or depth - players who are active and would make for difficult pushes like me are town, Juice who he has been encouraged to scumread and has been blatantly scummy is his only scumread, and everyone else 'gets a pass' with no real intent to dig into any of their posts or sort them.

There's also some behaviour which I think is waffly in a scummy way. 243 is an early example of this. He calls the post 'interesting', and scumreads it while making sure to emphasise repeatedly how uncertain he is - it feels stilted to me. A much better example comes later in 730 specifically his response to me. There are two things I want to highlight - firstly, he flips on Frog when Frog townreads him (of course this is convenient for scum Hutmeil to do) and when I push him on it he argues it's simeltaneously townie and scummy, and then repeats that line in this post. Frankly I think this is nonsense - if you're conflicted about a post made by someone you scumlean, it doesn't make sense to call that post 'townie' and not elaborate until pressed on it. I think the most simple explanation is that Hutmeil wanted to reconcile with Frog, an active player, to increase his odds of survival, but later believed he couldn't successfully justified this and tried to backtrack a little. It's not a great scum strategy but it makes more sense than any other town explanation.

Some people will probably respond to this by calling a lot of my concerns playstyle. I encourage them to look at hutmeil's completed games as town; they show a lot more independence, genuine scumhunting and overall vigour than he's shown here.

Finally, I want to point out his opportunism. He pushes on Juice when that's the done thing, and seems to move on when it's not. When scum Gandhi is being pushed by a lot of people due to his frustrating playstyle Hutmeil is happy to pile on the pressure. And more recently he's decided to voice a suspicion of Greeting, presumably in preparation to join the wagon. This isn't a massively strong point and I acknowledge all of these players have been scumread fairly widely - but it is convenient for scum Hutmeil that he's always willing and able to jump on the most viable miseliminations.

[Ausuka]

I knew the reference! I haven't played much of the civ games but I'm pretty sure Gandhi has an agenda where he won't like you unless you have nuclear weapons

pedit: I don't have any recent completed games with him but am not completely unfamiliar I guess

Well, that's some good essay writing practice at least.

[Nero Cain]

Nuclear Gandhi (3): Eiralox, Greeting, Frogsterking
inutile (3): DeltaWave, Nuclear Gandhi, Mohab500
DeltaWave (2): furtiveglance, BlueBloodedToffee
furtiveglance (1): Ausuka

this was the vc before Juice voted Gandhi and the argument that was made that the Gandhi vote was RVS and it being on the lead wagon was just a coincidence. I'm not all that sure if I buy that. Given that I think he's active lurking it makes me think this is a scum slot.

[Gamma Emerald]

Mohab500 is being replaced.

The day deadline is being frozen, and will be set to 48 hours once a replacement is found.

[Nero Cain]

hutmeil could be scum I guess.

I checked his meta and while he isn't the most active player - there is *definitely* something missing here.

VOTE: hutmeil

I get the vote on me sure. Anything I can answer for you to help ease your mind?

this is the only thing that kinda is real scummy to me since I think town get more upset when they are misread. But beyond that, it seems like a meta read which I'd p much agree with.

[Greeting]

hey Greeting. You do realize that part of scums jobs is to make "good points" and try to come off as townie? They are going to poke holes and cast doubt on town b/c that like their job. I personally don't think that your reason to town read him is very good. What do you think about my accusation that he's active lurking?

It does have some merit, but I don't think you took into account the fact that he replaced in. I have seen this type of catching up in games before, that is quoting loads of posts to find anything notable and comment on it, and in my experience that is NAI. I would much rather if he made up to 5 long summary posts with conclusions though.

[Greeting]

I honestly don’t remember why I did this. I played one game with him where I was scum, and felt threatened enough that I killed him (Newbie 2095). I probably saw the same tone as in that game and just put him into the townbin for that. I will have to check to make sure though.

I remember that game. BBT came in strong and scum killed him for that (as you said).

But I also remembered how you played scum in that game is similar to how you are playing now. You we're posting as needed ( I guess so as not to get prodded ) and flying under the radar and acting helpful to newbies which of course makes you look townie to them.

Which newbie did I help this game? I am scumreading

hoppip

, who sounds like a newbie, because this isn't the Newbie queue.

How am I flying under the radar? I have like 3-4 people voting me now.

This post makes zero sense actually and says nothing about how "

BBT

came strong" in your opinion. So you agree with my read and you think I'm likely scum?

[Greeting]

Anyway, I'm trying to ask where his gamesolving intent is evident? I haven't gotten much of a read out of MND so far.

Posts like 561, 585, 599, 607, 703, 704 - all have the intention of solving the game imo.

[Greeting]

I 100% agree with the

hutmeil

wagon though, he's been in my PoE and never really left it. I remember a significantly better performance from him in Newbie 2095.

VOTE: hutmeil

[Greeting]

Regardless of my insecurities, I'm opposing Hutmeil's vote. Greeting is more palatable.

VOTE: Greeting

You never explained your progression from leaving me out of the PoE (last seen 363) to voting me 771.

[Nero Cain]

I get that he replaced in but I don't think being a replace absolves him of any crime. 25 pages doesn't seem like that much but this isn't a novel. He has a bunch of small little one liner that could have just been condensed into 1 or 2 bigger posts so it just feels like he's trying to look really active. I don't think a lot of people really agree with me but that's how I feel. I doubt he would have finished in 44 hours (the deadline before it was frozen)

[furtiveglance]

Sorting.

Greeting

inutile

Ausuka

furtiveglance
BlueBloodedToffee
Frogsterking

DeltaWave

PoE:

Juice
hutmeil
hoppip
Eiralox
Mohab500
Nuclear Gandhi

I think this readslist is just the group consensus as it was at the time. As in the average of everyone's thoughts. It makes me think you just looked at post count instead of thinking about the game.

[Greeting]

Sorting.

Greeting

inutile

Ausuka

furtiveglance
BlueBloodedToffee
Frogsterking

DeltaWave

PoE:

Juice
hutmeil
hoppip
Eiralox
Mohab500
Nuclear Gandhi

I think this readslist is just the group consensus as it was at the time. As in the average of everyone's thoughts. It makes me think you just looked at post count instead of thinking about the game.

Firstly, I don't think there was a group consensus read in this game ever. Even inutile got scumread before she replaced out.

But, let's say that there was a group consensus on townreads. Why is the fact that I support it scum indicative? If I am scum, I don't want a group consensus of townreads, because I will never be able to miseliminate all of them.

[furtiveglance]

Sorting.

Greeting

inutile

Ausuka

furtiveglance
BlueBloodedToffee
Frogsterking

DeltaWave

PoE:

Juice
hutmeil
hoppip
Eiralox
Mohab500
Nuclear Gandhi

I think this readslist is just the group consensus as it was at the time. As in the average of everyone's thoughts. It makes me think you just looked at post count instead of thinking about the game.

Firstly, I don't think there was a group consensus read in this game ever. Even inutile got scumread before she replaced out.

But, let's say that there was a group consensus on townreads. Why is the fact that I support it scum indicative? If I am scum, I don't want a group consensus of townreads, because I will never be able to miseliminate all of them.

I'm saying you supporting the group consensus is scum indicative because you don't need to engage with making up your own reads.

[Greeting]

I'm saying you supporting the group consensus is scum indicative because you don't need to engage with making up your own reads.

I haven't spoken about all of my townreads, sure. But I explained most of them. I would say that the posts listed below are evidence against me making up reads by copying consensus townreads. Plus, I am now townreading

Mapuche Never Die

who is the leading wagon and so far from being a consensus townread.

Frogsterking

(145)

Nero Cain

(inutile) (152)

Ausuka

(152)

furtiveglance

(178)

DeltaWave

- tier below townreads, but out of the PoE (715)

Mapuche Never Die

(721, 781)

[furtiveglance]

I'm saying you supporting the group consensus is scum indicative because you don't need to engage with making up your own reads.

I haven't spoken about all of my townreads, sure. But I explained most of them. I would say that the posts listed below are evidence against me making up reads by copying consensus townreads. Plus, I am now townreading

Mapuche Never Die

who is the leading wagon and so far from being a consensus townread.

Frogsterking

(145)

Nero Cain

(inutile) (152)

Ausuka

(152)

furtiveglance

(178)

DeltaWave

- tier below townreads, but out of the PoE (715)

Mapuche Never Die

(721, 781)

Ok, I see you have reasons. And I admire someone townreading their main counterwagon. I just don't think hutmeil is mafia.

[furtiveglance]

Deadline kinda snuck up on me and I feel a bit stuck.

[Nero Cain]

it's frozen now.

[Mapuche Never Die]

I just don't really get the hutmeil case. Like I could maybe buy into

he's not being as active as normal

but beyond that its ????

Part of me just feels like voting out MND or Gandhi would be fairly constructive b/c I don't trust Gandhi's

leave me until day 3

and I think MND's plodding catchup is fake.

I’ve played with town!Nero before and he also has this kind of garbage
moonlogic.

[Mapuche Never Die]

VOTE: hutmeil

[Greeting]

Anyways, this is my Day 1 final PoE.

hutmeil
hoppip
Eiralox
Mohab500

Left out

Mapuche Never Die

and

Nuclear Gandhi

because both of them produced sufficient amounts of good content.

I am happy to eliminate anyone out of these four really and

hutmeil

is a good candidate. I don't think I really need to expand on the

hutmeil

case as everything has been said. His only case was Juice, and when he got replaced, he didn't build a second one.

@

Nero Cain

: if anyone is actively lurking this game, especially since Juice's replace-out, I would say it's

hutmeil

.

[Greeting]

VOTE: hutmeil

I think this is E-2.

[Frogsterking]

Left out Mapuche Never Die and Nuclear Gandhi because both of them produced sufficient amounts of good content.

My ass.

UNVOTE: hutmeil

Sorry Ausuka, this bullshit with MND and Gandhi needs to end today. I'm not waiting until D3 for Gandhi/MND to play like a human.

VOTE: hutmeil

I think this is E-2.

If you want me to vote hutmeil over MND/Gandhi show me where they wrote something that wasn't garbage.

[Nero Cain]

with the deadline frozen we prob shouldn't kill anyone till MND catches up and Mohabs replace does the same.