Datisi's Café [game over!]

[Malakittens]

UNVOTE:

Luke, mastina, (???)

I don‘t know, maybe Ydrasse for third
But I‘m never limming Roden today I think after re-ISOing.
This extremely obstinate defense almost always comes from town in my experience. Especially when it‘s so genuinely egocentrist at times (not negatively connotated as it‘s a townie process)

Id townbin andres

This is def his row. Meta

[Vivax]

Either way, it‘s painful to watch. I‘ve never seen him fight tooth to nail like this and it‘s supposed to be a stacked town that supposedly is better capable at reading each other.

Been in this type of situation and can‘t fathom a reason to run Roden up like this and he really cares too much to be scum here.
Feels like this is just supposed to be some lazy lim after Ircher got yeeted D1 and now everyone just confbiases the next best thing they‘d consider LHF

[Andresvmb]

I’ll explain why - the productivity mechanic, it hints pretty heavily that mastina has to be Town. You know the cost of using your ability, and if you assume that the flipped PRs all maxed out their use of productivity points so that they could use their abilities once, making some assumptions as to how many PRs there are in the game, you can almost get to a point where you can figure out whether mastina used up productivity points as they described or not. And you know the Town used enough where the Scum were granted an extra kill. I think you almost have to assume mastina did use a significant amount of productivity points to make the math work no? That’s what I started to realize. I don’t know if anybody has brought this up already I’m not caught up, but I’m beginning to think it’s probably difficult to make the math work unless you assume mastina did as they indicated (ergo, Town).

[Andresvmb]

^@Vivax.

[Vivax]

UNVOTE:

Luke, mastina, (???)

I don‘t know, maybe Ydrasse for third
But I‘m never limming Roden today I think after re-ISOing.
This extremely obstinate defense almost always comes from town in my experience. Especially when it‘s so genuinely egocentrist at times (not negatively connotated as it‘s a townie process)

I have been thinking about this, and I think it’s silly to doubt mastina as Town at this point.

Why?
The consensus to yeet Ircher was the prod. slip. Mastina pinged him scum for a vote on Ausuka that wasn‘t supposed to stick out in context. That was just a bus avoiding having to point out the real reason imo.

[Lukewarm]

I’ll explain why - the productivity mechanic, it hints pretty heavily that mastina has to be Town. You know the cost of using your ability, and if you assume that the flipped PRs all maxed out their use of productivity points so that they could use their abilities once, making some assumptions as to how many PRs there are in the game, you can almost get to a point where you can figure out whether mastina used up productivity points as they described or not. And you know the Town used enough where the Scum were granted an extra kill. I think you almost have to assume mastina did use a significant amount of productivity points to make the math work no? That’s what I started to realize. I don’t know if anybody has brought this up already I’m not caught up, but I’m beginning to think it’s probably difficult to make the math work unless you assume mastina did as they indicated (ergo, Town).

Vivax almost certainly ran at close to 0% in order to fire his vig night 1. Are you factoring that in for your math here?

[Vivax]

Then you got several instances of both Yd and Luke sticking out their tongues at anyone considering them town, aside from the plethora of reasons I mentioned to suspect Luke for their argument.

RCE just looks like a stumble-fiesta that asks to be scumread for some things but doesn‘t really give a damn about it

[Andresvmb]

I’m not actually doing the math and it’s all speculation, but one player using up say 100%, the rest of the PRs running at say 30%, and the ratio of VTs to PRs at something like 2:1 (so ~6 PRs), you get an average productivity of what, ~85%? Or so? You almost need usage of 100% from someone else to get below 75% on average. If you assume the game is even heavier on PRs, say 8, you still don’t get below 80% unless someone else used up a lot of productivity. No? I don’t have enough information, but intuitively you need something like 2 or more players to have used up significant productivity points to make it work. I think.

[Lukewarm]

Town needed to drop 425 points collectively to give the extra kill.

100 from Vivax
70 peta
30 nero
30 bbt
230

195 dropped points from the other 13 townies would be an average of 15 dropped points per person.

I guess this is a math question of how many VTs we think are in the game.

[Vivax]

I’ll explain why - the productivity mechanic, it hints pretty heavily that mastina has to be Town. You know the cost of using your ability, and if you assume that the flipped PRs all maxed out their use of productivity points so that they could use their abilities once, making some assumptions as to how many PRs there are in the game, you can almost get to a point where you can figure out whether mastina used up productivity points as they described or not. And you know the Town used enough where the Scum were granted an extra kill. I think you almost have to assume mastina did use a significant amount of productivity points to make the math work no? That’s what I started to realize. I don’t know if anybody has brought this up already I’m not caught up, but I’m beginning to think it’s probably difficult to make the math work unless you assume mastina did as they indicated (ergo, Town).

Why does the productivity anyone claims to use matter at all for the process of forming a read? We are in 50-75% scenario based on 1 extra kill. There is no apparent reason for you to take at face value the prod. mastina claimed to have set.

But you can take at face value that the reason to vote Ircher was the wrong one, and that scum would be the first to notice the mistake.

[Andresvmb]

Given the mechanic, I don’t think it makes sense to think in terms of the “average usage per Town player”. VTs aren’t using any. Let’s get real. So it’s an estimate based on how many PRs there are in the game. Traffic Analyst is a strong role, and it cost 70%. Jailkeeper and Doctor were 30%. And we know there’s a Vig most likely, at what I would agree requires significant productivity usage. Do you think we are going to get a lot more PRs that require heavy usage? I think that’s the question. But I think the mechanic hints at mastina being a bad execution.

[fireisredsir]

Is Roden known for being uncooperative/obstinate as town?

i don't really see the stubbornness as especially scummy bc ive seen roden do the "well now i am not doing it" penguin meme as town before

I am a meme?!?!

yay

Hmm. Fire, can you link that?

Spoiler:

You both say it's me.

Neither of you suspect each other.

Neither of you show any real urgency in trying to solve the other.

Yet you don't want to vote me.

we have a whole day phase why would we be urgent? like i said i plan to read and talk and yes i am considering the possibility that it could be std, why would we vote immediately?

Because one of you is just waiting for the other to vote me.

which of us is scum?

Take a guess.

you can look at other nearby posts for context, but in coalition elo he started off doing this whole weird blustery thing where he was acting like one of us was for sure scum and then wouldn't say who when asked about it

it's not exactly the same but there were a few other points in there where it felt like he was being very difficult to work with out of stubbornness and it made it hard for me to see him being town

some aspects of this felt similar. im not sure if he even realizes that he's being difficult when it happens so i don't really think its very AI

[Andresvmb]

I’ll explain why - the productivity mechanic, it hints pretty heavily that mastina has to be Town. You know the cost of using your ability, and if you assume that the flipped PRs all maxed out their use of productivity points so that they could use their abilities once, making some assumptions as to how many PRs there are in the game, you can almost get to a point where you can figure out whether mastina used up productivity points as they described or not. And you know the Town used enough where the Scum were granted an extra kill. I think you almost have to assume mastina did use a significant amount of productivity points to make the math work no? That’s what I started to realize. I don’t know if anybody has brought this up already I’m not caught up, but I’m beginning to think it’s probably difficult to make the math work unless you assume mastina did as they indicated (ergo, Town).

Why does the productivity anyone claims to use matter at all for the process of forming a read? We are in 50-75% scenario based on 1 extra kill. There is no apparent reason for you to take at face value the prod. mastina claimed to have set.

But you can take at face value that the reason to vote Ircher was the wrong one, and that scum would be the first to notice the mistake.

You’re tunneled so you’re not thinking. I’m not taking what they said entirely at face value. But we did have an extra Scum NK at least, which means the Town used up a lot of productivity points. You have better information than me - how many points do you need to see used before the Scum get an additional kill? Okay, given what is publicly available, what do you think happened? It’s possible some of the flipped players used more than what it would have cost them to use their ability once, but I would argue that’s a bad assumption (and if they did, I would actually think it ridiculous). So, you should intuitively know that someone else probably used up a lot of points. I think it’s a decently good guess that the player that openly said they would use a lot of productivity points actually did so.

[Andresvmb]

And since the mechanic is only influenced by the choices made by the Town, I have to think mastina influenced the score. I would be more skeptical of mastina if the Scum had only had one kill, and you were here claiming a Vig shot. Then, they probably lied about their use of productivity points.

[Vivax]

Ok so you think that entering the game announcing 0% productivity means mastina gets a town pass. That‘s still dodging the issue that Roden is pooping green balls of townieness while getting pushed. And mastina is behind that push, who casually acknowledged that Luke is also scum when I was in crusade mode but somehow less relevant than Roden who seems like some closet skeleton everyone wants to get rid of asap. Fk that

[Lukewarm]

Then you got several instances of both Yd and Luke sticking out their tongues at anyone considering them town

This is an annoying description of what actually happened btw.

I in general sort from a point of view of whether people's reads on me feel genuine or not.

I did not question every read on me, I questioned the ones that I did not understand.

There were several town reads that I noted, but based on my experiences with those players, it made sense for them to be thinking what they were saying they were thinking, so I moved on

Spoiler:

luke is pr ably town

good vibes:

penguinpower
furtiveglance
lukewarm

in other news if ircher is scum luke is lock town

anyway, it's p in line with what ive seen from town luke and i lean that way so far.

There were also scum reads, like Mastina's, that I ignored, because Mastina's super early day 1 reads always feel like they were pulled from a hat, and I also know that asking her about them basically never helps, and just results in super long walls that are a pain to parse.

The ones that I questions were very specificly ones that I was unsure why they would have me where they had me, based on how they were posting prior.

Town:
Lukewarm
Klick

Is this sorted?

If yes, why am I at the top?

Like this one. I was confused because I was literally number 1, BUT furtive and ircher were both in scum. I was checking for inconsistencies in giving me town points for catching the Ircher slip, while not giving Furtive the points, and to force jjh to put into words why that discrepancy happened.

And this one

Spoiler:

I haven't read much from Titus. I see

she is voting me, so that's minus points

Okay, but if Titus voting you is "minus points" then do you expect that reasonable town players would not vote you here?

I think some would and some wouldn't.

Titus is earlier on the wagon when I had less content.

I left out the second part because I think it is implicit from the minus points comments.

Namely, no, I lean towards less likely to have a viable reason.

That would equally apply to mastina and Lukewarm for the record

(though I give mastina a D1-3 pass because she tends to be pretty obvious scum after a while, so it's better to wait.)

Ircher, how did you get from here to there?

Lukewarm - Town
---
Titus - Scum
---
mastina - Town

was specifically because it was inconsistent with his prior posts.


I was not calling out every person who town read me, I was engaging with reads on me that looked faked.

[Lukewarm]

I don't like Luke's and Fire's harping on mechanics on Page 2, it's dressing up something simple as an overly complex reason to vote Ircher.

I am confused.

{snip}

And to be clear, I was doing the same to people whose scum reads on me did not seem real.

Like yours, that is specifically why I engaged with you a lot on your read on me.

[Andresvmb]

Ok so you think that entering the game announcing 0% productivity means mastina gets a town pass. That‘s still dodging the issue that Roden is pooping green balls of townieness while getting pushed. And mastina is behind that push, who casually acknowledged that Luke is also scum when I was in crusade mode but somehow less relevant than Roden who seems like some closet skeleton everyone wants to get rid of asap. Fk that

Sigh. No. You’re not reading what I’m writing so you do you and keep pushing nonsense.

Since when does every Town player get every push right? You are strongly disagreeing with mastina’s perspective which is totally fine, but that certainly doesn’t make them Scum. And the mechanic actually reduces the odds that mastina is Scum. You can hate that as much as you want, but I think it’s an important consideration.

[Lukewarm]

Given the mechanic, I don’t think it makes sense to think in terms of the “average usage per Town player”. VTs aren’t using any. Let’s get real. So it’s an estimate based on how many PRs there are in the game.

That is the same conclusion that I drew?

I guess this is a math question of how many VTs we think are in the game.

[Lukewarm]

oh. maybe you were responding to Vivax, and not me.

[Andresvmb]

No it was to you Luke and to Vivax at the same time. I criticized the calculation of the average use per player because it makes it seem less difficult for the average to be <75% if Vivax used 100%. That’s more why. But I don’t think we disagree.

[Andresvmb]

I’m also getting somewhat aggravated about the constant discredit of who saw what and why. I do not disagree that if I’m Scum, I am more likely to quickly realize that Ircher slipped there. No disagreement from me there. But that is NOT the same as actually pointing it out and being consistent about the meaning of it. As a Partner, your first instinct is not to bury your Partner immediately upon them making a slip that they can, with proper maneuvering, get out of. It’s not like we’re talking about a mechanical claim that is verifiably false. It was an embedded assumption that you will have noticed people genuinely disagreed about at the beginning of the game. So just saying oh they’re Scum because they noticed the slip really doesn’t make sense to me.

[Vivax]

No it was to you Luke and to Vivax at the same time. I criticized the calculation of the average use per player because it makes it seem less difficult for the average to be <75% if Vivax used 100%. That’s more why. But I don’t think we disagree.

I don‘t know why this is relevant in Roden‘s regard, or why it‘s less difficult to be less when I use more as it‘s the opposite. You wouldn‘t happen to have not understood that it‘s the productivity we don‘t use that fuels the power roles?

The more role usage, the more kills scum gets, simply put.

And I don‘t know how Luke cooks posts so quickly but it‘s sort of scary and feels very reactive.

[Lukewarm]

And since the mechanic is only influenced by the choices made by the Town, I have to think mastina influenced the score. I would be more skeptical of mastina if the Scum had only had one kill, and you were here claiming a Vig shot. Then, they probably lied about their use of productivity points.

I agree with you that Vivax + Peta (+1) likely needed to be pretty low to get us to the bonus kill, based on the numbers.

So, from that it does feel safe to conclude that there is at least 1 more strong town PR out there after Vivax and Peta.

If Mastina is town, then that is her.

But if she is scum, that just means that there is a strong PR out there who has not claimed that they are a strong PR.

I don't agree that that means town bin mastina. But I have also resigned to the fact that she gets to day 4 before she is sorted, so maybe we will see such a flip or have such a claim happen by then, and we can pick it up from there I think.

[Lukewarm]

No it was to you Luke and to Vivax at the same time. I criticized the calculation of the average use per player because it makes it seem less difficult for the average to be <75% if Vivax used 100%. That’s more why. But I don’t think we disagree.

The average was just the basic math, then I jumped to the conclusion that it mattered how many prs we have in the game.

I feel like we were thinking about it the same way, and you just misunderstood me.