Datisi's Café [game over!]

[Vivax]

Mastina if you‘re town you‘re too scary to not be called scum at least by some. And I didn‘t even see your scumgame yet.
How you see a vote by Ircher on Ausuka and conclude it‘s not his town game is beyond me.

At least someone needs to fight your game perspective. And I‘ll just decide to not annoy Luke anymore for a while. But allow me to use the opportunity to call them evil again, then sheep their Titus read.

Your unwillingness to loosen the screws on Roden gives me lots of doubts

[mastina]

Why is ydrasse an universal town read

D1 play. I know that Ydrasse's D2 play has faded and that can be a scumtell for Ydrasse since Ydrasse's scumplay loses momentum with time--but I am willing to bet based off of what the D1 play is that the loss of momentum is nai and more indicative of Ydrasse's mindset/circumstances/etc. more than anything to do with role/alignment.

I want to stick to play as things may not be as expected.

Well in that case you can look at past Roden towngames for an idea of why this isn't among them.

We won't actually

see

the reasons but it's ok for some reason.

To be fair, I

do

want to explain. It's just that I don't want to give info to the scum that they can use to cover their tracks. That applies both to roles and to play. I reveal what I need to, when I need to, but revealing more than that is dangerous.

We've got a game that should be won, just by not giving the scum too much room to work.

All it takes is me shutting my trap and not being the talkative self I would love to be.

[mastina]

VOTE: Ausuka

VOTE: Ircher
Scum.

So for starters, we know there's 4 scum based off what Ircher slipped on page 1. But while there was a random flashwagon on Ausuka going on, why is this the reason mastina voted Ircher

first

for the wrong reason?

Because I didn't catch the 4-scum comment; it didn't really occur to me.

What I

did

catch was Ircher making an RVS vote in a way/style he would never do as town. I've played with Ircher both as town and scum and literally been his scum partner. I know his scumplay pretty damn well. His vote on Ausuka was more of a scumclaim than the comment on faction numbers. Ircher as town never makes that vote, at least not in that way. The entirety of his D1 posts were obvscum.

Like--read his P1 posts. We know he was scum, so like it's less effective than normally. But slip be damned. Just off of content. Just off of what he said there. Just off of his page one posts. Don't they radiate scum?

They did to me.
Maybe it's that I've played with Ircher before, but like.
I don't see how anyone can look at Ircher's page one posts and

not

see him as scum from them. It was that damn obvious. Ircher gave away his alignment with every post he made.

So color me paranoid here, but is Mastina running her entire team into the ground right from the start?

Vote Roden out and see my D3 push, that seems like a good way to find out!

[mastina]

I may or may not be able to shoot again, if you want me to shoot, give suggestions. No promises, a roleblocker is likely.

Lukewarm/RCEnigma would both be solid choices imo.

Btw the Klick/furtive posts on that page make me townread both regardless of Roden's alignment. I don't see either of them making those posts as scum who know Roden's alignment. They are both town who are reaching out to a player whose alignment they don't know.

[mastina]

I was fully prepared to defend Roden from being the days elimination before he decided to throw a temper tantrum. I don't think that I will be doing that any more tbh.

(Like, compare this sort of interaction with Roden to those of Klick/furtive/jjh/etc. Lukewarm knows Roden's alignment. Others do not.)

[mastina]

I also said you had no reason to believe me, which...is exactly what happened.

Because you said something different than you did initially?
Maybe clear that up?

And while it's far from as strong as the others, this, too, looks like town not knowing Roden's alignment.

If you think a scum puts up that type of defense I don‘t know what to tell you.

Have you heard of scum's good friend Ate? I hear Ate is good pals with scum like Roden. "who is ay-tee?", you may ask? Oh you might know him by his full name, Appeal to Emotion.

[Vivax]

I‘ll get appealed to emotion and apply the underdog-lotion then

[mastina]

Mastina pinged him scum for a vote on Ausuka that wasn‘t supposed to stick out in context.

The funny thing about scum posts is that nothing scum say is

meant

to stick out in context. (Okay that's an over-simplification/generalization, as scum have incentive to subvert this on occasion--WIFOM, to distract from other scum, as a gambit, etc. But you know what I mean. Scum don't post trying to look like scum most of the time.)

Just because it isn't meant to stick out in context doesn't mean it won't tho. The whole basis of the game of mafia is identifying scum who thought they were blending in yet made at least one post which ended up sticking out. Ircher did with his very first post and continued for the rest of the page. Ircher couldn't have thought his page one posts would be scumclaims; if he did, he wouldn't have made them. But they still were scumclaims.

I don’t know if anybody has brought this up already

For the record, I believe it'd be anti-town to really expand on your train of thought here. However, I believe it to come from town and you

are

onto something, there. A fairly significant thing actually. But it's best not to elaborate yet.

I guess this is a math question of how many VTs we think are in the game.

Seems like something a town-you would've done already; I wonder why you haven't engaged in it?

*I* have reasons not to (I believe it's anti-town today), jjh has reasons not to, but you don't follow the same school of thought as either jjh or myself do, so I wonder why you haven't? Could it perhaps be that you're doing it in a more...private setting? With two others chiming in?

[mastina]

Someone with an eye for math would have surely gotten interested in the numbers Ircher was putting out, and very quickly realized that they had to be assuming we’re in a 17:4 game - which is not immediately obvious. This gets at what people look for or what they’re interested in, in part.

Why was Lukewarm involved in the math D1 yet not engaged in the math today?

I have gone into why I believe Lukewarm did what he did on D1 as scum: he didn't believe that it would condemn Ircher as scum. He believed it'd lead to a discussion of mechanics/math/etc. He thought that it'd be a way to interact with a scumbuddy and leave both looking townier and assume the interactions would be organically town. Lukewarm couldn't have known that the post he pointed out would be seen as the town as such a big deal.

And it was only

after

that when he made his Ircher case.

In a bit of irony, the thing he accused Titus of is something he himself is guilty of. Where he saw the way the winds were blowing and felt he had to commit.

What's your theory for why Lukewarm isn't nearly as involved in the math D2?

[mastina]

(Oops I'm casing Lukewarm too much right now; I don't want to detract from the Roden wagon. Damn you, ADHD. )

[mastina]

Been thinking over Roden, and I still want Titus to be todays elim.

I mean naturally you want a Titus elimination over a Roden one. Titus has support from those who are unaware of her meta or are purposefully downplaying/ignoring/etc. it. She has been a lead lim candidate all day because people are not following why her meta is like 90+% clearing of her.

That's a far better elimination for you than your scumbuddy!

[mastina]

Like...You consider a lot of things at once in parallel, but don‘t really point and shoot. I hope this doesn‘t come across as mischaracterizing, but it‘s what keeps me sus on you.

This is accurate; Lukewarm is missing the "A-HA!!!" factor.

Making the cases he has is not an a-ha! factor; making the cases he has is having predetermined the outcome and writing the evidence to fit that narrative.

[mastina]

when he‘s clearly very passionate about being the wrong elim

Scum down one scum on D2 are also passionate about being the wrong elim for their team.

In fact scum have more reason to be passionate than town.

If a player who was pushing Ircher hard was wagoned hard on D2, they as town would have good reason to be upset--in their eyes, they'd have reason to think that the town was gamethrowing by voting out a town player that significantly contributed to a D1 scum elimination.

But Roden doesn't fit as that.

If a player who wasn't pushing Ircher hard was wagoned hard on D2, they as town would have no reason to be upset. They'd understand the why. They'd maybe be upset at themselves, but they'd have far less reason to be upset at the town.

So a player who wasn't pushing Ircher hard being wagoned hard on D2 being passionate is more likely to be scum.

[mastina]

But yeah announced superscumkiller mastina didn‘t quite die before Peta and Nero.

Generally speaking, I'm never the first scum kill in the game. That's why it's genuinely shocking to me in the rare instances I am. I'm like, "wait what??? Why me?"

Similarly, I like to meme about being a scum killer but in truth my accuracy level is never as high in reality as it is in my head. I genuinely think all the scum are basically known to me, but if it were truly so foolproof that my reads weren't wrong, I wouldn't need to actually hide/obscure all my reasons, now, would I? I'm holding back specifically because I am aware that I could be wrong on my reads, and just like every time I'm the first kill is a surprise, me actually being right on all my scumreads would be a surprise.

But I have the scumreads so I'm not going to not push them just out of fear that I'll be wrong. So if I see someone who looks like scum...I'mma push them as scum.

When I did the comparison, I was saying that her posts about Ircher do not clear her from being partnered with Ircher, because she has no issue lock!Scum reading a scum partner in her first 5 posts.

Oh sure, my push on Ircher doesn't clear me.

I was quite aware of when I pushed Ircher that if I was right it'd look like Control. So I'd be the first to admit that. I was aware from pretty much the second I voted Ircher, "if he's scum people are going to compare this to Control".

Meaning that I'll back you up on the Ircher push not clearing me.

How unfortunate for you that I don't need the Ircher push to clear me then.

[fireisredsir]

Like...You consider a lot of things at once in parallel, but don‘t really point and shoot. I hope this doesn‘t come across as mischaracterizing, but it‘s what keeps me sus on you.

This is accurate; Lukewarm is missing the "A-HA!!!" factor.

Making the cases he has is not an a-ha! factor; making the cases he has is having predetermined the outcome and writing the evidence to fit that narrative.

this is exactly what your approach looks like tho

it seems like you decided the reads you wanted to push on like page 1 and have just been insisting that everything aligns with your view of things ever since

idk if you're scum for it bc you've done the same thing as town before but idk why you would expect anyone to take you seriously

[fireisredsir]

Similarly, I like to meme about being a scum killer but in truth my accuracy level is never as high in reality as it is in my head. I genuinely think all the scum are basically known to me, but if it were truly so foolproof that my reads weren't wrong, I wouldn't need to actually hide/obscure all my reasons, now, would I? I'm holding back specifically because I am aware that I could be wrong on my reads, and just like every time I'm the first kill is a surprise, me actually being right on all my scumreads would be a surprise.

But I have the scumreads so I'm not going to not push them just out of fear that I'll be wrong. So if I see someone who looks like scum...I'mma push them as scum.

i mean ok this kind of answers that, but like you are expressing basically the same level of certainty for all of your reads

and i know your read on me is wrong (or you're scum)

so when i see you having the same level of certainty on something else and basically just saying "im right on this. i won't explain why, but trust me", im not really very inclined to do so

[mastina]

But yeah announced superscumkiller mastina didn‘t quite die before Peta and Nero.

Generally speaking, I'm never the first scum kill in the game. That's why it's genuinely shocking to me in the rare instances I am. I'm like, "wait what??? Why me?"

Similarly, I like to meme about being a scum killer but in truth my accuracy level is never as high in reality as it is in my head. I genuinely think all the scum are basically known to me, but if it were truly so foolproof that my reads weren't wrong, I wouldn't need to actually hide/obscure all my reasons, now, would I? I'm holding back specifically because I am aware that I could be wrong on my reads, and just like every time I'm the first kill is a surprise, me actually being right on all my scumreads would be a surprise.

But I have the scumreads so I'm not going to not push them just out of fear that I'll be wrong. So if I see someone who looks like scum...I'mma push them as scum.

(Side-note, this is also one of the reasons I am pushing my reads so hard right now. I have said that I'm going to do a full reveal on D4. This means that scum shouldn't kill me before N3, and that's

if

they fear the reveal. If they don't fear it, then I'd live even longer.

So if I DO die before N3, I want it to be clear that it's NOT scum shooting me for PR fears. The scum know they can wait until N3 at the very least. Especially with town killstoppers dead, they can afford to kill me any night. Meaning they can afford to have it be a

later

night.

In other words: if I die earlier, I want it to be clear that the scum chose to shot me due to my reads. Not PR hunting. Not out of fear of my D4 reveal. If I die before N3, it'd be because the scum genuinely thought that I off of

play alone

was too big of a threat to wait until a later night. That I was a bigger threat than the likes of Vivax, jjh, etc. That would be significant. If I died before Vivax the town vig, it would mean the scum saw me as such a big threat by play that they couldn't afford to leave me alive.

Thus. I have incentive to tryhard here. If I die N3, nobody would bat an eye. They'd think "oh mastina promised a D4 reveal, scum killed her to prevent that". If I died N1 or N2, then people

should

--I very clearly am not a threat to them by role until at earliest N3 and there are much much much better kills to make than me. So if I die when there's better kills to make than me, it means the scum feared me for my

reads

.

Which is why I need to post an updated readslist with updated reasoning.)

[mastina]

because the sign of a genuine belief in his reads is missing.

and that sign is?

Visible obvious belief he has caught something that is important, basically.

He's made cases for people being scum, but they lack that A-HA! factor. Or rather, it's different.

His case on me and Titus is "A-HA! I can use these things to push these slots as scum". Having reads that he believes are good to push, and then finding things that he believes make that push believable.

His cases as town are more "A-HA! I have found a slot that looks like scum for this".

[Uncrowned]

VOTE: Ausuka

so this is a page 1 vote ircher never makes as town

ausuka had no votes on her at this stage in RVS, other people had been voted already. ok, i'll do some comparisons when i find his town games

[Vivax]

To mastina, every sentence contradicting the existing narrative is like a piece of dough ready to be spread all over the place in a mission to create a gigantic mountain of enormous post pizzas

Not a complaint, it‘s fascinating to watch
But there‘s reasons to tinfoil her. I‘d agree that the Roden lunch would be informative, same as upping the anthe by enlarging a counterwagon on Titus

[Uncrowned]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=89250

Ircher, who is town in this game, instead of just naked voting in RVS also adds in "Hello folks" before making the vote

"Hello folks"

is that the entire basis for the scumread?

[Uncrowned]

the only notable difference i can see is that he voted someone who had put a second vote on someone else on P1. ausuka hadn't voted yet so this was out of the question, and no-one in this game prior to his vote had placed a second vote on a slot, so there was also no opportunity for him to do so.

I don't see how this is a super scum entry by him, unless this one game is the exception to the town!ircher playstyle. seems flimsy

[Vivax]

But Ircher radiated scum apparently. Some people are able to detect atoms of mafium circling around each other

[Uncrowned]

His case on me and Titus is "A-HA! I can use these things to push these slots as scum". Having reads that he believes are good to push, and then finding things that he believes make that push believable.

His cases as town are more "A-HA! I have found a slot that looks like scum for this".

so it's a tonal read, mostly?

[mastina]

How you see a vote by Ircher on Ausuka and conclude it‘s not his town game is beyond me.

I mean, I've been playing this game on this site for 14 years (holy shit 2008 was that long ago I'm

old

old), so I've had lots of time to practice getting reads in the RVS and hone it into an art.

I once was half-way writing a guide for how I do it and identify town/scum RVS entrances, but never finished it and my draft has since been lost. I internalized the knowledge but forgot the process used. You know how if you do something often enough how it becomes automatic? I developed a--fairly decent--technique for reading people in the rvs. I don't even remember what it was! I had this whole methodology. It was a

science

. But I internalized it, so that now all I can really say is, "gut!".

It's not gut, it's me internally using the process I honed/refined over the course of those years. But because I can't actually remember what the process was due to just how much I internalized it and how the notes which developed the process were lost, I don't have a better word to use.

That said, the process was enhanced by Ircher being a player I am quite familiar with. I have a technique that allows me to read players in general, but I didn't need it for Ircher. He was just that obvious. He'd be scum by that technique, but he was also just scum by every metric. Meta, play, etc. All from page one.

I lowkey suspect Ircher has scumgame burnout and didn't even really want to try.

Your unwillingness to loosen the screws on Roden gives me lots of doubts

I mean. I'm not willing to let go of a correct scumread when we have a chance to eliminate scum every day here.

There are other slots who could be scum, but precious few. I'd be sad a Lukewarm elimination wasn't a Roden elimination but he'd be okay. fire would be another one. RCE wouldn't be terrible. But while all of them have quite a high chance of being scum, Roden has the

highest

chance of being scum.