Datisi's Café [game over!]

[fireisredsir]

but what about that do you think is specific to luke being scum?

Because Luke is thorough and meticulous as town and absolutely methodical. His towngame is well-thought-out and doesn't make the ""mistakes"" in narrative he has made this game.

could you point out any specific examples of mistakes in narrative that he's made?

I already have; it's in his Titus/mastina cases. I'm kinda clocking out of mafia for the moment right now so don't really feel like rehashing it again but I've made my points on why Titus is town here and don't feel like reiterating them again.

i just reread your posts after 1505 and i don't see any that address the points he made there? the closest you come is 1672 but that isn't really related

i still don't see what mistakes in narrative you've pointed out

you've said why you think titus is town but not why luke's points come from scum

actually that post has a lot of words but all you're really saying in it is that you don't personally believe that titus would diverge from her meta

which okay, fine, but how does that meaningfully engage with any of the points made?

[Vivax]

I think mastina has been very vocal about summing up her reasons to SR Luke, or agreeing with my former ones

[fireisredsir]

she has been very vocal about thinking luke is scum, yes

im asking about a specific point she made because i would like to understand what the basis for it is, since it almost but not quite made sense to me where the other points didn't really do anything for me

[Vivax]

Honestly it‘s in the ISO.
Both hers and mine. Ya tryna take Ydrasse‘s fake-scumread spot?

[fireisredsir]

i just read the iso and didn't find it, thats why im asking about it

[Vivax]

Spoiler:

but what about that do you think is specific to luke being scum?

Because Luke is thorough and meticulous as town and absolutely methodical. His towngame is well-thought-out and doesn't make the ""mistakes"" in narrative he has made this game.

I hope I get town points for this.

As a matter of fact: yes, you do!

I feel like this meta has been brought up in the thread, so I'm surprised you find it scummy?

It's almost like Lukewarm made up a read, that he knew would make sense in a vacuum, so he started with the premise of me being scum and then made up the reasoning to reach that viewpoint.

I still think Roden not really talking about the Ircher wagon at all when it was (imo) the primary discussion point is strongly scummy.

So do I, especially given their role similarity.

It really feels like you're making this up. I understand why someone would be suspicious of me in a vacuum but this argument feels like you started at the premise "ausuka is scum" and then made up reasoning to reach that viewpoint.

You are correct; fire did this for you.
You know who else has done that?

Lukewarm with his Titus/mastina cases.
Both are scum!

I mean, I *agree* with the Lukewarm case. You can look back and see me saying the same things, I'm pretty sure - and peta also thought this! I don't think this really applies to luke here.

It applies.
I understand why someone would be suspicious of Titus in a vacuum. Or heck, even suspicious of me in a vacuum.
Those reads are not in of themselves bad.
But Lukewarm is explicitly making them up. He started with the premise of scum, then made up reasoning to reach that viewpoint. Reasoning which from an outside perspective looks like "oh this seems plausible enough" both as a narrative on the individual and as from coming from a viewpoint from town.

But the issue arises in that Lukewarm's narrative is only consistent from an outside viewpoint casually glancing in--it's not something internally consistent. Lukewarm's cases don't come from the perspective of trying to figure out the alignment of the player in question and demonstrating the conclusion he thinks they are scum. Lukewarm's cases demonstrate he thinks they are scum and then demonstrate the narrative used to justify this viewpoint.

The cases make efforts to ignore inconveniences that get in the way of the point being right. They manipulate things in a disingenuous way lacking honesty, by exaggerating points in favor of the viewpoint and downplaying the points in opposition to the viewpoint.

Like...You consider a lot of things at once in parallel, but don‘t really point and shoot. I hope this doesn‘t come across as mischaracterizing, but it‘s what keeps me sus on you.

This is accurate; Lukewarm is missing the "A-HA!!!" factor.

Making the cases he has is not an a-ha! factor; making the cases he has is having predetermined the outcome and writing the evidence to fit that narrative.

I was fully prepared to defend Roden from being the days elimination before he decided to throw a temper tantrum. I don't think that I will be doing that any more tbh.

(Like, compare this sort of interaction with Roden to those of Klick/furtive/jjh/etc. Lukewarm knows Roden's alignment. Others do not.)

These are just the bottom collection.
I'd say the lack of aha-factor is what described it best for me and was more akin to my thoughts. Synthesizing into a simpler argument is what I prefer doing, personally. Except on D1, then I'm just a loose cannon.
Kinda not in the mood to open that Pandora's box again like the slapping fiesta I had with luke at day start.

[fireisredsir]

the a-ha factor point is reasonable ig, i wanted to know what specific mistakes in narratives he had tho

[Vivax]

Turns out when I came home yesterday and wanted to drink a bit I grabbed some homemade elder syrup and chugged it down thinking it was Rosè, but I only just realized it
I should donate a lobe of my liver or something, since to me alcohol is some sort of performance enhancer but I need a ton to get properly drunk despite not being burly

the a-ha factor point is reasonable ig, i wanted to know what specific mistakes in narratives he had tho

For me the most blatant one remains the fact Luke pointed out Ircher's mistake first iirc, but only joined the wagon after Peta voted with a do-do-do, they went extinct for a reason.
These are a recollection of various things that stuck out to me while questioning. And the feeling panic thing is something you can take for granted, or not. Pretty sure I didn't have a reason to.

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

I have not been having a lot of fun with Day 1 of large games. So I might try to coast this one out.

But I also might be bad at sticking to that lol.

But for now, and until I inevitably fail at holding back, Peta I declare you a double voter

VOTE: Klick

I have not been having a lot of fun with Day 1 of large games. So I might try to coast this one out.

But I also might be bad at sticking to that lol.

But for now, and until I inevitably fail at holding back, Peta I declare you a double voter

VOTE: Klick

Oh is this the mythical Lukewarm scumgame?

...'Cause it looks like a mythical Lukewarm scumgame.

As long as we achieve 1,275 points out of 1,700 points each day, we will be fine. If mastina is setting hers to 0%, then we need to average 80 points per player to avoid the extra night kills.

Is this just you guessing that this game is a 17:4, or did I miss that info somewhere, or?

Hi y'all, I'm gonna be fully transparent with this:

I am setting my productivity to 0% today.

You may call that anti-town as much as you want; you can consider it suspicious as much as you want. Which is fair. The scum extra kill mechanism is ludicrously strong and I am fully aware of the risks.

But I have very strong reasons for doing so. I promise that by D4, you'll know why.
I won't go 0% more than once.

But for ~reasons~ I need to go 0% today. Let's just say I'll become a scumhunting GOD.

I kinda feel like you should have just done this, and not declared it tbh.

Are you basically claiming that you have a power worth the over all productivity taking a hit?

Conversely, people probably should not declare intent to go to 100% productivity, because that is paramount to claiming either a VT or a PR with a bad ability.

damn mega townie analysis from you on something that's already been done congrats you're at the top of my TRs

This feels like a horrible reason to town read me tbh.

Thanks. I hate it.

Ah. my bad lol

Probably just because I do see people town read people for dumb things like that on the regular.

35 - reads like pocketing attempt for a susceptible player

38 - Kinda agreed with it at the time for the whole self-consciousness in post

39 - Very fast ping on Ircher, no adaptation through vote

82 - Reminds me of myself in terminator when a townie wrongly concluded I was town. I snarled at em, more or less (it was Gamma)

85 - extension

Pinging Ircher that early could be read as hedging considering the slot seems to act in a rather headstrong way about the reason he's being wagoned so quickly

Oh look, I am being talked about

Spoiler:

I have not been having a lot of fun with Day 1 of large games. So I might try to coast this one out.

But I also might be bad at sticking to that lol.

But for now, and until I inevitably fail at holding back, Peta I declare you a double voter

VOTE: Klick

I have not been having a lot of fun with Day 1 of large games. So I might try to coast this one out.

But I also might be bad at sticking to that lol.

But for now, and until I inevitably fail at holding back, Peta I declare you a double voter

VOTE: Klick

Oh is this the mythical Lukewarm scumgame?

...'Cause it looks like a mythical Lukewarm scumgame.

As long as we achieve 1,275 points out of 1,700 points each day, we will be fine. If mastina is setting hers to 0%, then we need to average 80 points per player to avoid the extra night kills.

Is this just you guessing that this game is a 17:4, or did I miss that info somewhere, or?

Hi y'all, I'm gonna be fully transparent with this:

I am setting my productivity to 0% today.

You may call that anti-town as much as you want; you can consider it suspicious as much as you want. Which is fair. The scum extra kill mechanism is ludicrously strong and I am fully aware of the risks.

But I have very strong reasons for doing so. I promise that by D4, you'll know why.
I won't go 0% more than once.

But for ~reasons~ I need to go 0% today. Let's just say I'll become a scumhunting GOD.

I kinda feel like you should have just done this, and not declared it tbh.

Are you basically claiming that you have a power worth the over all productivity taking a hit?

Conversely, people probably should not declare intent to go to 100% productivity, because that is paramount to claiming either a VT or a PR with a bad ability.

damn mega townie analysis from you on something that's already been done congrats you're at the top of my TRs

This feels like a horrible reason to town read me tbh.

Thanks. I hate it.

Ah. my bad lol

Probably just because I do see people town read people for dumb things like that on the regular.

35 - reads like pocketing attempt for a susceptible player

For point of reference, Peta is the only person on this player list that I talk to outside of mafia games.. I also expected him to understand why I would consider coasting in his shadow day 1, since the last completed Large game that I was in was so unbearable Day 1 that both Peta and myself repped out before Day 1 ended (and then proceeded to talk to one another about how terrible the game was, and how all large games should have a day 1 post cap). It also helps that he is someone who I would actually trust his reads.

o be fair, those are all reasons why he would be the person I talked to out the gate as either alignment.

38 - Kinda agreed with it at the time for the whole self-consciousness in post

39 - Very fast ping on Ircher, no adaptation through vote

I did not vote Ircher there for two reasons.

Firstly, I had just said that I was giving my vote to Peta lol

Secondly, I wanted to see if he would talk about his thoughts there before I revealed that I was thinking it was TMI, and I held to that until the moment that Furtive quoted me, explained why I was asking, and voted him for it. Imo, talking to get more information from someone is better then just voting them and putting them on the defensive. (see 357)

That is also why, when Peta voted Ircher, and I followed him in 81, I tried hard to play off my Ircher vote as a joke vote.

82 - Reminds me of myself in terminator when a townie wrongly concluded I was town. I snarled at em, more or less (it was Gamma)

85 - extension

Pinging Ircher that early could be read as hedging considering

the slot

Luke seems to act in a rather headstrong way about the reason (mech TMI)

he's

Ircher being wagoned so quickly

I am not really sure what you mean by that last sentence tbh.

What do you mean by "act in a rather headstrong way"?

1) Okay? Guess I'll take it

2) What makes you think Peta wasn't following you?

3) Felt like you and fire in unison did the whole mechanics mumbojumbo on Ircher which I pointed out seemed a bit...Expansive on the productivity bit.

Secondly, I wanted to see if he would talk about his thoughts there before I revealed that I was thinking it was TMI, and I held to that until the moment that Furtive quoted me, explained why I was asking, and voted him for it. Imo, talking to get more information from someone is better then just voting them and putting them on the defensive. (see 357)

That is also why, when Peta voted Ircher, and I followed him in 81,

I tried hard to play off my Ircher vote as a joke vote.

:fry:

So I did not have any reason to think that he was being more serious there. And I also did not want to ask, given my hanging question for Ircher.

So you pointed out Ircher's mistake first? I think. But you only voted when Peta had to make you vote. Then it was a joke vote, but...

But you're still voting Ircher are you not? Occasionally popping in to question people who townread you.

Town:
Lukewarm
Klick

Is this sorted?

If yes, why am I at the top?

Alas, these posts are kinda draining

I'd say Luke displays some characteristics you'd associate with a martyr mindset, but according to some, feeling of guilt being scum-indicative is somewhat of an unbased rumour

P-edit: Always try to follow the guide of some fella called ace when vig. Kill coinflips early. Less wiggle room to push a mislim, and disencourage that type of play.

I think you don't understand how D1 went down.

How many larges how have you played?

Enough
But let's consider this: The ones who called it weird either don't reply (FG) or believe it (Fire)
While Luke goes on attack mode after not commenting, supposedly having no info whatsoever of how many extra kills scum had. At the very least, you'd have reason to assume Luke has an agenda or ulterior motive here.

Lukewarm is an absurdly bad slot to flip here, to be honest. Like I don’t believe you genuinely think that slot is decently likely to be Scum. Maybe I’m being very basic, but how is 588 + the early questioning not just disqualifying as a place to look today? I don’t get it.

A very detailed case on Ircher when he had 9 votes on him? After pinging him on Page 2 but not voting him right away? Seems repetitive, or performative.
And also, I can feel the panic

P-edit: Always try to follow the guide of some fella called ace when vig. Kill coinflips early. Less wiggle room to push a mislim, and disencourage that type of play.

I think you don't understand how D1 went down.

How many larges how have you played?

Enough
But let's consider this: The ones who called it weird either don't reply (FG) or believe it (Fire)
While Luke goes on attack mode after not commenting, supposedly having no info whatsoever of how many extra kills scum had. At the very least, you'd have reason to assume Luke has an agenda or ulterior motive here.

My vote on you came before you posted this day phase, so acting like I am pushing you in response to your comments this day phase is pretty silly.

I started typing my case out on you immediately after reading 1072, it just took me me a bit to pull together the relevant quotes.

(Which is why 1082 has no comment on your vig claim, because it was written before I read the posts you pedit'ed me with)

That would mean you don't find the BBT kill weird enough to believe he was vigged. But then, why don't you agree with suspecting those who did if you are town?

P-edit: Always try to follow the guide of some fella called ace when vig. Kill coinflips early. Less wiggle room to push a mislim, and disencourage that type of play.

I think you don't understand how D1 went down.

How many larges how have you played?

Enough
But let's consider this: The ones who called it weird either don't reply (FG) or believe it (Fire)
While Luke goes on attack mode after not commenting, supposedly having no info whatsoever of how many extra kills scum had. At the very least, you'd have reason to assume Luke has an agenda or ulterior motive here.

My vote on you came before you posted this day phase, so acting like I am pushing you in response to your comments this day phase is pretty silly.

I started typing my case out on you immediately after reading 1072, it just took me me a bit to pull together the relevant quotes.

(Which is why 1082 has no comment on your vig claim, because it was written before I read the posts you pedit'ed me with)

That would mean you don't find the BBT kill weird enough to believe he was vigged. But then, why don't you agree with suspecting those who did if you are town?

I never said that it was unbelievable for a vig to have targeted BBT.

I don't think that it was even that weird of a thought to have had, so not sure what you are asking me here.

Do I think that it is possible for a townie to think that BBT was a vig kill? Yes.
Do I think it possible that the scum team would target him thinking he is a PR? Yes.

Did I think that you were scummy before your claim? Yes.

You just made three strawmans you could answer yourself.

The sentence: 'I don't think anything about the BBT kill' would have achieved the purpose of communicating that.

And why is it relevant if you thought I was scummy before? So did a bunch of others. This reads like you are pre-empting backing off the read, but you missed that train...

[Vivax]

Here we are, battling the forces of corruption.
For this purpose, I‘m looking for someone to ship 30 sacks of dry beans for this winter to me

[Lukewarm]

It sure feels like you just don't understand me, and there foreyou think I am scum.

It is wild that you have such a strong tone read on me, since we have literally never played together.

Almost everyone in this game who has played more then 1 game with me before has me as town. (Mastina is literally the only one of those people calling me scum btw). This is my town tone. -- But I also doubt there is anything that I can say to actually convince you of it

Spoiler:

Players, in order of how many games I have played with

Peta's read on me was town

Ydra's read was probably town

Mastina has me as scum, but you and I both think she is scum

Fire said that the things you were calling out were consistent with me town.

Titus has zero mention of me
Mala has zero mention of me

SS has me in his town pool

Roden has me as town.

Furtive has me as town

Penguin Power has me as town.

Everyone else I think is 0-1 games with me

If this was somehow a clear cut scum indicative tone for me, do you really think that you alone would spot it over everyone with experience with me?

[Lukewarm]

Roden [5]:

mastina

, Andresvmb, Klick, Malakittens, Ydrasse

All of these people (and also Titus who voted since the vote count), really need to check in post his full claim and all of the interactions surrounding it, and declare that they still want to be voting him, or find a new place to be.

I feel like there has been a lot of Roden things that happened since these votes were cast, but very little of the people voting there really reacting to them.

[Lukewarm]

I am keenly aware of the fact that there are zero members of the scum team actually angling for me to get eliminated, despite a confirmed townie more then willing to lead the miselim on me. Even Mastina, who is calling me scum has made it clear she has no intention on voting me.

It seems likely that the scum team, seeing Vivax making it very clear that he intends to shoot me, is just gonna sit by and let that happen. It keeps Vivax's vig shot from being a danger to them.

So, I think that makes Fire and Andres very likely to be town for their recent posts made directly to vivax, about me.

[Lukewarm]

Titus has zero mention of me

This makes this makes sense to me. Between the number of games that Titus and I have had together, and me being the loudest voice calling for her elimination, I would expect her to have *some* thoughts about me here. But instead its crickets.

[Vivax]

I mean, I‘m mentioning this cause fire asked me to, while they should be able to find the same stuff I found. But I suppose asking is fine from time to time.

I don‘t know either why I have this grasp on you if it‘s correct. But, working theory:

I‘m convinced some kind of distant perception exists over this forum game at times. I have been kinda essaying it throughout my games.
Sometimes I believe I can feel other‘s emotion‘s, not everyone‘s, not always. Similar to how mastina said that Ircher radiated scum.

I do prefer lighthearted games, but also the occasional headbutting. At the old community we used to have very vocal fights. Guess it gave me a thick skin, we were mostly able to be honest, and learn to deal with outbursts from some.

[Vivax]

And I made it clear I‘m not going to shoot you. See? That‘s the martyr mindset again.

[Lukewarm]

I can tell you that this game I most certainly wouldn't have valued Ircher's life above my own and therefore had no reason to bus him. Yes he was deadweight, but deadweight can still be saved reasonably from a town perspective. (Could've sworn that article had a section where I say "your town self is stupider than you give yourself credit for", but oh well.)

This feels quite contradictory to your own self meta of your scum game

Subject: Mini 2254 | Subreddit uPick | Fin

unless mastina has a reputation for bussing her partners (and flips scum).

Actually, I do.

Because I never am intended to be the deepscum and am always the weak link on my scumteams (I have never lived as scum in over three years and have always died prior to that), why wouldn't I bus? I'm guaranteed to die every scumgame I ever play, so when I die my flip will make my scumbuddies look a lot better.

So, why are you now acting like listing Ircher as your strongest scum read on page one is something that you "certainly wouldn't" have done this game as scum?

[Vivax]

But you are sure we haven‘t played together before? Idk, maybe your posts remind me of someone else.

[Lukewarm]

I can tell you that this game

I most certainly wouldn't have valued Ircher's life above my own and therefore had no reason to bus him.

Yes he was deadweight, but deadweight can still be saved reasonably from a town perspective. (Could've sworn that article had a section where I say "your town self is stupider than you give yourself credit for", but oh well.)

This feels quite contradictory to your own self meta of your scum game

Subject: Mini 2254 | Subreddit uPick | Fin

unless mastina has a reputation for bussing her partners (and flips scum).

Actually, I do.

Because I never am intended to be the deepscum and

am always the weak link on my scumteams

(I have never lived as scum in over three years and have always died prior to that),

why wouldn't I bus?

I'm guaranteed to die every scumgame I ever play, so when I die my flip will make my scumbuddies look a lot better.

So, why are you now acting like listing Ircher as your strongest scum read on page one is something that you "certainly wouldn't" have done this game as scum?

[Lukewarm]

The post from the Subreddit game was from the post game, when mastina was just talking. Not playing Mafia btw

[Vivax]

VOTE: Titus

Fine, gonna flipflop again.

[Lukewarm]

Like, the only way Mastina's claimed way she would view this game as scum in 1748, meshes with her own self view of how she approaches games as scum (for a 3 year streak of doing it this way), is if she is some how claiming that as she wrote Post 30 and Post 104 and Post 105 and Post 109, she ALREADY would have known that the value of her life vs the value of Irchers life was well outside the standard.

No one had called Ircher's post TMI yet at that point, and he was not a serious wagon.

And she is saying that confidently about this game.

I actually think that the only way that she could even get to there, is if she is pre-supposing herself not as scum in the hypothetical, but specifically scum with a really strong PR.

[Vivax]

vote count 1.06

with 21 votes in play, it takes 11 to make a decision. day 1 ends in (expired on 2022-09-29 01:45:00).

firing

Ircher [9]:

mastina, Lukewarm, Titus, furtiveglance, Ausuka, RCEnigma, Klick, BlueBloodedToffee, Vivax

Ydrasse [4]:

Roden, Andresvmb, PenguinPower, Nero Cain

Titus [3]:

petapan, Malakittens, fireisredsir

petapan [1]:

Something_Smart

Vivax [1]:

Ircher

Roden [1]:

Uncrowned

Malakittens [1]:

jjh927

not voting [1]:

Ydrasse

mod notes

~ i am using a vote counter, let me know if there are any mistakes.
~ this is a mod note.

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▶ ❚❚ ●─────────────────────────────  0:01 / 3:04

VOTE: Ydrasse

Ircher was outed at this point but him quoting the VC here means he tried to dress this up as self-pres. Or maybe some flavour-related reason (I mentioned Lasagna in tft that just finished)

[fireisredsir]

luke im confused, whats the difference between what she says in the upick post-game and the first paragraph of that same 1748 in this game?

maybe im missing something but i don't get the disconnect

[Titus]

You're sooo vain, you probably think think this game is about you.

#drunkTitus

Concert in 40 m

[Titus]

Luke just pissed I made a real case on his buddy and wants me to actually validate his arguments.

I tank for town.

I'll catch his partners when sober.