Datisi's Café [game over!]

[jjh927]

Are you just trying to sheep the dead for independent reasons then?

[jjh927]

Like, I was assuming you were putting more value into the read because the player who held it died

[mastina]

Like Klick just seems to be in lockstep with you without any real unique pushes or thoughts of his own.

I think if Dannflor had any genuine interest in sorting me and thought this, the town next step would be asking any questions about any of my reads
Instead, he's starting with a conclusion and saying this with intent to sound persuasive instead of to solve
Because he doesn't need to actually solve for me
Because he's scum

^This is a genuine thought regardless of Dannflor's alignment. It is a good one. May or may not be accurate, but it is a good thought that comes from town.

So Klick can't be scum voting.

I am not scum voting.

Andres has shown incredible nuance in thought that strongly indicates him not being scum. I've explained this read in fairly strong detail, but Andres cannot be scum here.

PenguinPower is town for a bunch of reasons.

I've explained my Uncrowned townread and it is basically due to Uncrowned having highly unique of a perspective that I don't see as scum, for instance the progression on me.

Who's possible scum then on Roden?

Malakittens, Titus, and Ydrasse.

Unless you think that's the scumteam, that means scum off of the Roden wagon.
If scum is off of the Roden wagon, why is Roden still alive?
ESPECIALLY if Titus the main counterwagon right now is scum???

Why would scum off of the wagon not hammer Roden, here?

Hoping the town does it for them? Risk losing Titus??? Titus has gotten five to six votes with some not voting Titus saying they would. Half the Roden voters have said they'd vote Titus. So the Roden wagon could dissolve and the Titus wagon go through. Why risk that as scum? Why risk the scum losing a second member when you can guarantee a town elimination?

It's just far more likely that scum have a vested interest in not eliminating Roden.

[Lukewarm]

Are you just trying to sheep the dead for independent reasons then?

It was not even a conversation about sheeping Peta.

The recent stuff was Mastina trying to call me a liar, and me responding.

Spoiler:

But now you are also trying to call everything else town too.

I disagree based on my personal experience with Titus, and frankly even if you are town, I'd value Peta's read over yours, which clearly called all of those things squarely in her scum wheel house. Peta was actually so sure that Titus was scum, that he moved off the Ircher wagon and onto Titus.

I was saying that Mastina acting like every thing Titus has ever done this game radiates townieness is ridiculous. And her acting like her town case should have completely rocked my perception of Titus is dumb.

I have my own read of Titus's play. It does not match hers. I have read her town case, and disagree. And some of the very things that she is calling townie from Titus, Peta said looked like scum Titus. So why would I ever take her word for that over my own perception or the perception of confirmed town Peta.

She responded to say that I am a dirty liar, and that Peta did not actually scum read Titus that hard.

And I was also saying that that was kinda silly, because Peta's read is literally right there for anyone to read.

I was not arguing for anyone to sheep him actually, more to say that her stance that it would be impossible for me, as town, to think that Titus is scum here is

[Lukewarm]

Is roden still at E-1?

[Lukewarm]

he is not.

[Lukewarm]

I am getting annoyed at the day, and I get impulsive when annoyed.

Was considering just hammering to end it, and move on to the insufferable stage (me tomorrow after a town roden flip)

But apparently not.

[mastina]

Wouldn't be surprised if Klick's were the best reads in the game tbf

Klick is voting Roden and has the main defenders of Roden as in his nulls or scum.

What do you think that says about Roden's alignment, then?

[mastina]

I have mentioned a few times that I felt like his interaction with Ausuka reeked of tvt to me.

Funny, those interactions are part of why I think Roden is scum!

I also feel like the level of obstinance Roden had with claiming his role is more likely to be town then scum.

And I believe it is scum that doesn't know how to make a town roleclaim.

Roden is scum who still doesn't know why his claim isn't a town one. There's one very specific thing I am going for with this and it remains true. Roden is scum by play, by circumstances, by what the town/scum roles are likely to be, AND by claim.

[Roden]

I'd made some points about Uncrowned earlier when prompted by Andres and it never really got a response, instead it got buried by all the focus on me and my role and trying to "gotcha" me. They were insistent on trying to get me to play, but once my activity and content sky rocketed they had nothing to say and instead just blankly voted me. Why ask me to do more if you had no intention of engaging with me? Why didn't they or anyone else have anything to say about my read?

What really stands out is that Uncrowned criticized my posts D1 for being too focused on mech despite only making two mech-focused posts. But then today there has been pages upon pages dedicated only to discussing mech and voting people based on mech. Yet Uncrowned has had nothing to say about it, and instead supported a wagon based on mech.

bro

if i'm not mistaken, this first part is either a bold faced lie or you just didn't see my response to you

i was the last one to respond in our 'interaction' and you said nothing and i'm pretty sure i'll be able to find it and quote it after this

also i criticised multiple d1 mech talk people because i don't think it really gets us anywhere. d2 the mech talk has been what, about claims? that's a lot more reasonable given game state and doesn't just seem like scum trying to find something to do on d1. context matters and you're ignoring it

?

I asked you to explain your scum read on me and you answered it. Then the day ended. There wasn't much for me to respond to and you made it clear that you didn't like that I had been responding to posts to defend myself. I don't think it makes sense to get upset when I defend myself and then get mad then I didn't.

It's a lack of engagement on your part because you scum read me D1, not the other way around. The onus is on you at that point because you made it clear you wanted to case me D2, but you just never did. You had nothing to say until I was already getting run up, and even then you didn't give a perspective or a read or really anything at all. Yet you seem to be implying I should have preemptively defended myself before you actually cased me. Like why would I do that? As any alignment?

You being completely dismissive and contradictory about mech talk and your standards around it is just all around scummy here.

[Roden]

I also think it's telling that you put me at E-1 and weren't afraid at all that I would self-hammer here as scum to end the day early and deny town more conversation time.

[Vivax]

I find speculating about specific reads from dead people being why they were killed to be incredibly unscientific and really not worth time at all

Honestly. That‘s just bogus.
Especially when you‘ve been playing with each other for years.
But this post in a room just doesn‘t look honest.

[mastina]

mastina

I'm interested in hearing if you have any thoughts about 2092

I do. Roden's play is basically a grand AtE here.

There are questions that I realize people have about his play.
"Why did he claim"
"Why was he so stubborn"
etc.

I admit, I don't have the answer to all of those.

You're never going to have an answer for every aspect of a read on a slot. No slot is 100% scum in literally every way shape and form with literally nothing town about them at all. (Altho obviously I like to say that. It's never actually true, but it makes a nice statement of a slot that is 99% scum.)

But the simple fact is Roden did those things as scum.

He is not town. He has slipped being scum in ways he doesn't even know.

I thought jjh knew when jjh asked about the percentage, but apparently jjh didn't see what I saw in regards to Roden's percentage claim. And what *I* saw hard-spews Roden as scum. That, aside from how his role is going to be a scum role in this game. His role isn't town here.

His play fits as scum for all of D1.
His play fits as scum in almost every way.
But he is still mechanically scum. For percentage-based reasons.

[mastina]

I also feel like it is good design to make peta's traffic analyst have a false guilty, so that it is not just a cop.

Roden's role is real, but it ain't town.

You've proven that Roden's role is real, but Roden's role being real was never the question. Roden's role is, explicitly, real.

It is also, explicitly, a scum role this game. For reasons the scumteam has no clue about, but which would be obvious with a massclaim.

If you were modding a 21 player and you gave Mafia 4 players (not confirmed), would you give 2 Mafia useless abilities?

As a matter of fact, yes!

I'm not going to out the why, but I'll say this:

The scum are

not

going to have any strong scum roles: Ninja, Strongman, Roleblocker, Rolecop, etc.
100% guaranteed they have NOTHING considered a strong scum role.

I'm not explaining this but I guarantee it's true.

[Roden]

Final reads are (Uncrowned/Titus/Mastina/Ausuka) contains at least two scum.

Mastina knows my meta and should know I'm town here, this isn't BoP either because she understands my mind set and knows how to emotionally set me off and can inform the rest of her scum team how to do so.

Titus has done literally nothing and it's in her scum meta to try to get town read through AtE (the drunk posting).

Ausuka is still scummy from before for retroactively scum reading me when I pointed out the contradiction in her vote.

[Roden]

Never vote Vivax or Luke

[mastina]

Roden is town regardless but the mechanical reasoning on this page is pretty poor. Roden being town is very much in spite of the mechanical reasons for him not to be

Roden still fucked up his claim in a way that I thought for sure you saw but which apparently you didn't. In regards to the percentages.

His role is also not a town one because of what the town/scum roles are.

[mastina]

Peta consistently called Titus scum.

Sure did!

But you're lying about the strength.

Two can play the iso game.

(i mean i kkkkkkiiiiiind ooofffff think vivax posts like he knows ircher's alignment but i'm not gonna harp on it right now)

This is how peta was expressing another of his scumreads, on Vivax. Does this radiate confidence? No, it doesn't.

isn't bad vibes just scumreads

i'm playing semantics but my intention wit using "vibes" rather than "reads" was to emphasize that these are mostly loose instinctual feelings

rather than reasoned conclusions i feel strongly about

because hey it's really early

Here he literally says it.
"It's really early"
"These are mostly loose instinctual feelings"
He literally says "rather than conclusions I feel strongly about".
THAT ITSELF SAYS HE WASN'T CONFIDENT.

You're presenting the narrative that peta was hard-pushing Titus as a strong scumread. But that's a lie. He wasn't.

hey it's a vibes list not a reads list

And it's here, too.

going full blown scumcase this early often just means conf biasing yourself. wanted to play it low key and let thins flow naturally rather than trying to wrestle the thread over a gutread, yknow?

He literally says here that he doesn't want to confbias Titus and that the read is gut.

while most of my reads are weak vibes i'd already bet the game on penguin being town

And here he explicitly says most of his reads are "weak vibes".

Presenting the narrative that petapan was hard-scumreading Titus is disingenuous-as-fuck.

I read Roden’s ISO - I had forgotten just how horrific their D1 was. Also, their posting is too focused on self-preservation over trying to solve the game. Yeah they had some comments as prompted by me about Uncrowned, but outside of pushing what, mastina, is there a coherent push in there? I don’t remember one. Like they get upset at Ausuka for voting them and not really speaking about them before, and they make a point of saying that Vivax v. Lukewarm is TvT in 1228, but they really seem for the most part to be fighting the reasons people are expressing for SR’ing them or getting upset about questions about their role. I just don’t see a whole lot of actual curiosity about other people’s alignments. It could just be that they’re demoralized, but it’s been a very consistent apathy.

This but even the "could be demoralized" isn't town--in fact it's indicative of scum.

[Roden]

Don't buy whatever bullshit Mastina tries to spin tomorrow, please

[Roden]

Mastina 100% understands why I would be demoralized because she has straight explained and defended me when I've gotten like this before when we were both town in GnG

[mastina]

I find speculating about specific reads from dead people being why they were killed to be incredibly unscientific and really not worth time at all

How about lying about the certainty of those dead players on their reads?

That seems more noteworthy to me.

petapan's lack of certainty on Titus doesn't show with a control-f of 'titus' in his iso. You can't find the lack of certainty by searching his iso for Titus.

Yet if you actually bother to read even a fraction of his iso, it becomes clear he wasn't strongly pushing Titus; pretending he was is disingenuous as fuck.

It was super-earlygame. petapan knew it. His reads weren't well-developed. He said as much. He thought Titus was suspect, sure--but suspect for the early game, without having had the time to refine that read. He was killed before he could engage with Titus. But the chances are quite high that he would've engaged with Titus today, explored her stances, prodded her, interacted with her, and come to a different conclusion.

Maybe

he doubles-down on Titus town. MAYBE. But saying he

definitely

was going to strongly push Titus is simply not true.

[mastina]

The recent stuff was Mastina trying to call me a liar, and me responding.

Because you did lie.

You lied in your narrative of peta's read on Titus, portraying it as something it wasn't.

It is factually true that peta expressed a scumread on Titus.

It is not factually true and is in fact factually false that peta was strongly scumreading Titus--explicitly, he wasn't. It was too early in the game. He said as much repeatedly. That his read was more of a vibe than a read.

[mastina]

Mastina 100% understands why I would be demoralized because she has straight explained and defended me when I've gotten like this before when we were both town in GnG

The difference there was that you were actually town by play and your claim actually made perfect sense as town.

Here neither is the case because neither is true.

[Roden]

You've yet to explain why or how

[Vivax]

o

I have an obligation to support the CW, but I'd argue it's a very townie trait of thought for you right here.