Datisi's Café [game over!]

[PenguinPower]

why?

[furtiveglance]

Pagetopping this because I'm so important:

Please don't kill me I'm way too young. I still have so much more to give. I am just now getting into my stride. I am extremely desperate. I am willing to transfer you Furtcoin.

no you stole my pagetop

[PenguinPower]

no you stole my pagetop

yes - yes i did

[furtiveglance]

why?

Just too agreeable. The only original thought you've had has arguably been a S_S scumread. But that was kind of in the ether for a while at the time.

Do you disagree?

[PenguinPower]

yes

[furtiveglance]

yes

What other original takes have you had?

[Ydrasse]

mmmm

my heart isn’t in furtive wolf but like my brain is there

[furtiveglance]

mmmm

my heart isn’t in furtive wolf but like my brain is there

I appear to be solving but something's off in the tone. Like I'm uninformed but not feeling town. Is that it?

[PenguinPower]

yes

What other original takes have you had?

wasabi is good on gyoza

[furtiveglance]

yes

What other original takes have you had?

wasabi is good on gyoza

Ok, so none game-related.

Do you accept that going with the flow is inherently scummy? Or do you think there's value in some town just listening and sheeping?

[fireisredsir]

@fire I’m not really going to defend not voting for Ircher. But I’m not sure I get what Scum agenda I’m supposedly pushing. In any case, being wrong doesn’t mean anything, but I can’t fault you for being suspicious I guess. You are, however, way off, and I really wouldn’t play like this as Scum.

its not really just about not voting for ircher. there's a lot of places where it just feels like you're positioned right where, looking back, it seems useful for scum to be. i can go into more detail later if you want

and there's not a lot that really feels like it makes more sense coming from town that i see

what do you mean by you wouldn't play like this as scum? what do you think you've done this game thats different from your scum game?

[PenguinPower]

I absolutely disagree that original thought is required to be town or even town indicative.

I also disagree that I'm just going with the flow, though I don't care to argue you...I do happen to agree with mastina's takes, however.

[furtiveglance]

I absolutely disagree that original thought is required to be town or even town indicative.

I also disagree that I'm just going with the flow,

though I don't care to argue you

...I do happen to agree with mastina's takes, however.

Ok then

[fireisredsir]

klick

Hi
Ngl I've really not got the energy at the moment, I'm off work sick for the last couple of days
I'm not going to force myself to engage heavily when I'm not in a place to enjoy it at least a little bit
I'm aware there's other outstanding stuff for me from earlier and I'll try to get to everything

You made a point in this post about it not seeming like my reads have developed much lately. The current problem is that I feel fairly confident in the reasons I've got the players as town that I do, BUT my list of remaining available scum doesn't... feel right. I don't have a concrete reason for it in my head but Dannflor doesn't feel like scum to me. Exactly jjh/S_S doesn't seem right, they're also two players that I don't think I'd get a solid townread on easily if they were town (I do think one scum there is probably a good shout though?). So I'm in a place where one of my townreads is probably wrong and I need to identify which, but I don't like any of the choices because they all feel town to me. So it needs to be someone who is rather committed to playing in a way that reads as genuine to me, OR one of the reads themselves is a poor read.

I'll give the furtive deepwolf theory some consideration but it doesn't feel realistic on first impression

hi

thats ok i understand that feeling

but on your reads, thats kinda what's weird to me tho, like you had me as a townread and then dropped it bc once you saw me say that i liked to gain townreads as scum, you thought that i could have easily gotten you to townread me. and like... okay, sure, but that's like a basic thing that most people can do as scum? so im not sure why that would change anything for you. it feels like your original townread couldn't have actually been very strong if that was enough to shake it

so like if thats the level of confidence your townreads have then im not really sure why you feel fairly confident in them?

and i would kinda expect you to be assessing if you should have reasons to adjust your scumreads (or if they're not scumreads, at least not-townreads) based on the flips. and it doesn't really feel like you have. if you still scumread dann and SS you should like at least be engaging with the reasons people have for finding them to be likely town

i just don't see any sign that you've actually considered whether those reasons are valid or not, and that's something i would expect you to do if you are in this place where you aren't sure if your scumreads are right or not

[Klick]

like you had me as a townread and then dropped it bc once you saw me say that i liked to gain townreads as scum, you thought that i could have easily gotten you to townread me. and like... okay, sure, but that's like a basic thing that most people can do as scum? so im not sure why that would change anything for you. it feels like your original townread couldn't have actually been very strong if that was enough to shake it

Quoting this but I'll respond to your earlier post which said essentially the same thing

[Klick]

i don't really get this, it seems like... super shallow reasoning? what about my play this game looks like it was meant to generate townreads?

like, your core point here is that me suspecting someone for looking like they're playing to get townread (and comparing it to how i play scum) made you think i was capable of doing that

do you... just have a baseline assumption that people in general aren't?

So, in short: yes
Or at least, not authentically
Very few people actually play scum with the intent of fully committing to the act, masking a town game to the point where they do individual things that wouldn't *actually* get them townread in practice just because it makes for a more authentic town-looking game as a whole. Because most townies don't scumhunt like that, so most scum players don't see the benefit of masking to that level in practice. It's not about whether players are *capable* of that level of masking - most scum players don't *choose* to.
I think petapan is a counterexample that was in this game, and that's why he was leaning town for me instead of straight town. Lukewarm is similar, Lukewarm plays a scum game that looks a lot like a town game. But someone like Malakittens, for example, isn't going into a scum game saying things that aren't an attempt to get townread by a decent chunk of the town - from what I've seen, that's not how she chooses to play as scum.

[fireisredsir]

hmm ok ig i tend to assume that most people as scum try to look town but i kinda see what you're saying

i do usually play like that as scum so fair enough (i don't think i generally do the same things that i do as town, but i do try to do things that certain other people would expect me to do as town, especially early on)

but i don't really think my play in this game matches up with that so idk what is making you think it does, you still haven't really talked about specifics here

[Something_Smart]

V/LA till Monday

[Andresvmb]

@fire I’m not really going to defend not voting for Ircher. But I’m not sure I get what Scum agenda I’m supposedly pushing. In any case, being wrong doesn’t mean anything, but I can’t fault you for being suspicious I guess. You are, however, way off, and I really wouldn’t play like this as Scum.

its not really just about not voting for ircher. there's a lot of places where it just feels like you're positioned right where, looking back, it seems useful for scum to be. i can go into more detail later if you want

and there's not a lot that really feels like it makes more sense coming from town that i see

what do you mean by you wouldn't play like this as scum? what do you think you've done this game thats different from your scum game?

I don’t agree. As you can clearly see with the Titus push for Ircher / subsequent flip, the Scum came to the quick conclusion that being

on

Ircher was the better place to be than off. I’m not suggesting all of the Scum bussed Ircher (though it’s certainly possible), but I do feel like voting there was the right strategic push. I might have thrown some passing shade at Ircher, but I never voted there, and I questioned the slip. How does that set me up for success exactly, as Scum? Like I said, I don’t know if all the Scum ended up doing this, but to some extent, it wouldn’t surprise me. Ircher was under tremendous pressure from the slip and for the entire period of time they were away from the thread, so that was the right time to create distance from them not to be easily associated with them. I certainly don’t expect any of the Scum to have defended Ircher all that strongly.

Regarding Titus, I was clear from the start that I struggle reading the slot, and it’s also hard to argue a player is Scum when they voted and pushed for Scum to die. I expressed that they had had takes that didn’t seem like they would originally come from Town, but it is difficult I feel to argue with the ultimate result sometimes. But how have I positioned myself right? Most of the players I would typically work with to get a result (and I’ve played with Nero Cain, petapan, Lukewarm, Ausuka in the past, as well as Malakittens, Ydrasse, Something_Smart and maybe fire?) are mostly dead, and obviously mastina and Malakittens are defending me most loudly, and I’m openly disagreeing with mastina’s push, and I haven’t made any approach to work directly with Malakittens. How am I strengthening my position over time? The one player that is trusting me and I’m trusting them back a little bit is Ydrasse who I’m almost certain is Town, and for ~reasons~, I really doubt that perspective helps me long-term. So no, I don’t agree at all with that feeling you have. You’re not giving me any credit for my Nero or Lukewarm reads either but yeah whatever any decent Scum can put out some reads that make sense.

And I mean I don’t really feel like you’re reading me all that closely if you don’t think most of what I’m posting comes from Town. I’m not going to sit here and explain why my perspective is Town. It just is, and if you can’t see it, then that’s on you really. If you want to ask specific questions as to why I came to a particular conclusion, then I can expand upon specific questions but I’m not just going to defend my play against generalities because that’s impossible to do.

Why don’t I think I’ve played like Scum? Because I’ve kept up, read through the game a few times, tried making sense of what’s been going on, and I certainly was focused on getting Titus right yesterday for example which I really don’t have any incentive to do as Scum. I think the biggest differentiator between my Scum and Town game is that you can tell when I care and when I don’t as I make an argument or express a point of view, and I think that piece of my game is really difficult for me to fake. But that’s my take on my own game so take that as you will.

[Andresvmb]

@mastina I want to believe in your push for furtiveglance but I don’t. Like I’m not feeling it. I think Uncrowned’s posts are far more damming (particularly how they were grouping players based on Roden’s flip), and I would bet they’re trying to lay low not to attract too much attention in the hopes that Town implodes. I don’t think we should let them skate here.

I would bet you are wrong and that Uncrowned was just town with the same vibes as Ydrasse.

Seriously, without the knowledge that Ydrasse used her role to confscum Titus, look at Ydrasse's iso.
Look at Uncrowned's iso.

They are basically identical.

The difference is genuinely only that Ydrasse has since conftowned herself by having confscumed Titus. (Also, more players are familiar with Ydrasse and have played with her.) Genuinely, there were players on previous days who were saying what you are saying right now of Uncrowned, about Ydrasse; "Ydrasse is laying low to not attract too much attention" or something similar.

The proof that Uncrowned is town is that Ydrasse is town and Ydrasse was doing the very things Uncrowned did.

Uncrowned has a very good read progression on multiple players, one which demonstrates a lack of scum perspective.

I don’t think I’ve said that Uncrowned is just laying low. You can make that accusation of so many different players. The point I did make is that while voting for Ircher for the slip, they shaded basically every Town that’s flipped (and me for that matter), and put a lot of focus on getting Roden executed, even ending up voting Roden at the end of D1 and not being able to find a way back onto Ircher on time. That’s the important piece. And Ydrasse’s at the beginning was sufficiently Towny that I distinctly remember re-reading it and thinking to myself, nah I’m wrong I should re-evaluate. It’s really not comparable.

[Andresvmb]

so now he's too obvious to be scum but still worth putting up for hammer? or is he not anymore? this feels off

Btw, up to here, Uncrowned had voted Ircher alright, but they’re arguing for the vote to move

away

from Ircher, saying it “felt off” once Ircher was put at L-1 by Vivax. In terms of focus, outside of fire and Ydrasse, all of the shade they’ve cast up to then had been on flipped Town {Vivax, Lukewarm, Ausuka}. But not a whole lot of focus on the person they’re actually voting. I would also note they tried to place Titus towards their top of the pyramid early.

You know what those players all have in common?

They were nightkilled by the scum.

You know what scum players have a tendency to avoid doing?

They tend to avoid nightkilling the players that they, personally, are scumreading.
(Obviously, this isn't a guarantee, but is a

tendency

.)

That post is not something that is an unreasonable post for town to make and in fact looks antiscum. It's not really innately a town view so much as it is a view that scum are unlikely to have the nuance behind it which Uncrowned demonstrated--especially since Uncrowned's views demonstrate he's not the one making the scum nightkills here.

I don’t know if Uncrowned ever actually made a meaningful push against any of the players I highlighted. But you know who they consistently SR’ed that actually ended up being mis-executed (and was therefore, not NK’ed)? Roden. I don’t think you should ignore that or brush it off like you are here.

[Andresvmb]

i mean just the idea that it was being brought up strategically to take pressure off a buddy, i really don't buy that being a thing someone (even titus) actually thinks about. stuff like that almost always gets found organically.

ok, this makes more sense. though I guess the question becomes how do you determine what is and isn't organic
I feel like this might be a good thing to take note of though and return to once some flips have happened

And this is soft defending Titus.

I think you're reading it backwards; that ain't a soft defense. That's a soft Titus-could-be-scum take. It's explicitly acknowledging that peta might be onto something, something that extra flips would then help to evaluate the accuracy of.

VOTE: Roden
time to play the game my friend

And then they find a reason to jump off once Nero starts saying that Ircher might be a mis-execution.

That is a towntell, not a scumtell. Ircher was in antispew mode at that point. Uncrowned hopping

off

of Ircher does not further the scum wincon there.
At that stage, hopping off of Ircher does nothing to prevent the Ircher wagon from going through.
At that stage, hopping off of Ircher removes any credit that could be had from bussing him.

So hopping

off

of Ircher hard-townspews him.

This is a very charitable interpretation of Uncrowned’s posts. petapan was very adamant that Titus was Scum. Them asking them to explain their take and then saying something like “well it really depends on what you feel is and isn’t organic” is surely a soft defense. It’s planting a seed of doubt in the mind of a player that was loudly pushing for Titus. And then you’ll also notice how they’re trying to give Titus time by saying that this could be worth returning to after a few flips. Sure, after Titus has fully used their Rolecop ability and can be properly bussed for Town cred. This is also why Ydrasse is always Town btw.

[Andresvmb]

So we really aren’t looking at the game similarly mastina which is why I’m not trusting this push onto furtive. I will have to ISO there but I don’t think it’s right.

[furtiveglance]

So we really aren’t looking at the game similarly mastina which is why I’m not trusting this push onto furtive. I will have to ISO there but I don’t think it’s right.

Yeah it isn't right.

[Uncrowned]

Secondly, I have felt for many moons that Malakittens is not town. Could it be Mala/Uncrowned?

I'll backstab Uncrowned after townreading him all game, because Andres wants it and I'd like to see some momentum on a non F name. Don't get me wrong, Dannflor is still suspicious.

VOTE: Uncrowned

ooo interesting