Datisi's Café [game over!]

[Datisi]

vote count 4.04

with 12 votes in play, it takes 7 to make a decision. day 4 ends in (expired on 2022-10-14 01:15:00).

firing

fireisredsir [3]:

Malakittens, Uncrowned, Ydrasse

furtiveglance [3]:

mastina, jjh927, PenguinPower

Uncrowned [2]:

Andresvmb, furtiveglance

Klick [1]:

Dannflor

Andresvmb [1]:

fireisredsir

not voting [2]:

Klick, Something_Smart

mod notes

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▶ ❚❚ ──●────────────────────────────  0:19 / 2:34

[Dannflor]

VOTE: furtive glance

I just don’t really believe your scum read on me

It feels by necessity

[furtiveglance]

VOTE: furtive glance

I just don’t really believe your scum read on me

It feels by necessity

Bare necessities

Well, I sort of have too many scumreads. More than the remaining scum slots. But that's the nature of a scumpool.

If I was a smarter player like PP or JJH or Malakittens I'd have 0 scumreads, except when Mastina wants to vote out town.

[jjh927]

Okay surely that post is never made by town

"Nothing wrong with my scumread on Dannflor; I just have too many scumreads."
"Which is a totally normal thing, trust me."
"Also I'm going to deflect onto more players at once than there are scum."
"Also Mastina bad because I am town"

[furtiveglance]

Okay surely that post is never made by town

"Nothing wrong with my scumread on Dannflor; I just have too many scumreads."
"Which is a totally normal thing, trust me."
"Also I'm going to deflect onto more players at once than there are scum."
"Also Mastina bad because I am town"

Who have you pushed this game?

[jjh927]

Do you think pushing is the only form of important interaction?

I've definitely pushed you
Roden felt like a bit of a push as he was defensive but that was quite the opposite to be honest

Other than that? If you wanted serious activity out of me earlier game then why did people keep hammering immediately before the highly telegraphed periods of high activity allowed by real life circumstances

[furtiveglance]

Do you think pushing is the only form of important interaction?

I've definitely pushed you
Roden felt like a bit of a push as he was defensive but that was quite the opposite to be honest

Other than that? If you wanted serious activity out of me earlier game then why did people keep hammering immediately before the highly telegraphed periods of high activity allowed by real life circumstances

Pushing people is the most important part of the game. I think that's hard to question.

You had me as a scumread D1 but didn't vote to follow it up, it's only now that I've got some traction that you voted me
Roden yeah, that doesn't do you any favours really.

I am definitely at fault for various other players hammering, completely unfair expectation from me that you would do more in the time we've had.

[jjh927]

Yeah I thought you might completely miss the point considering you aren't really trying to see it

[jjh927]

Did you honestly pay any attention whatsoever to how I interacted with Roden or did you make that statement entirely based off of my 2980

[furtiveglance]

Did you honestly pay any attention whatsoever to how I interacted with Roden or did you make that statement entirely based off of my 2980

Yeah you asked Roden some questions about his role. I paid attention.

[furtiveglance]

I feel like town's biggest problem is insecurity at this point. I get the sense that I'm being punished for scumreading town in a scumpool, because of natural omgus tendencies. I don't think both mafia are on me, 1 at max, not least because Malakittens and Uncrowned are both high potential mafia. So, to Dannflor, JJH and PenguinPower, I will explain why you are in the POE.

Dannflor: RCE wasn't towny, and the comment about Mastina being wrongtown followed by sheeping them looked like a pocketing manoeuvre.

JJH: The constant refrain of "Why did you guys hammer so early" doesn't work for me, because we've generated a lot of content at times when you've been posting. You also haven't been the loudest player - saying that you haven't pushed anyone wasn't really fair but I was exaggerating the point that you haven't really put yourself out there with any attention-grabbing reads.

PenguinPower: Early voting remains suspicious chainsawing for Ircher, aside from that just never been above town because you don't put enough content out to warrant a townread. If it's a style thing, that's still on you.

I would like to be unvoted, but the main point is that you don't deserve to be townread. You don't DESERVE it.

[mastina]

not just because of the claim (which I actually think is fake but still town).

As a reminder, still not here until like 12 hours from now minimum, but this, I GOTTA comment on right now.

You know why?

I don't necessarily trust the claim but I don't feel comfortable stating what I think mastina is doing.
~Titus

I'm actually quite certain that Titus in that game at one point used furtive's almost

exact

wording. (The iso is 6 pages long and ridiculously hard to search, so I can't find it. It could've been after I was dead or before, hard to find.) Where she said, effectively:
"I think mastina is town, but lying about her claim".

And furtive, in almost the exact wording I remember Titus using, goes "I think mastina is town, but lying about her claim".

I don't believe the similarity is coincidental.

And Titus was scum that game?
So you're saying, either:
I read my scumbuddy's past scumgames to get some tips on how to act in exactly the same way as them so we all look the same as a scumteam

or:
Mafia always interact with me scumreading them in the same way e.g. "unlucky, wrong but town!"
Neither of these points are good.

How fortunate that neither was what I was getting at!

My point is that Titus was scum

this

game.
Titus, as scum in THIS game, has a scum PT to talk to her scumbuddies in.
Titus, as scum in THIS game, would be able to convey her thoughts on me to her scumbuddies.
Titus, as scum in THIS game, would also give play advice before going down--she would give advice to her scumbuddies and try to set them up with a path to victory.

You should have zero familiarity with Multiball 2.
So you should have zero similarity in treating me the way Titus treated me in Multiball 2.

Ergo:

furtiveglance treating me the same way Titus treated me in Multiball 2 indicates that he was part of the scum PT with Titus

.

It's a scumslip.

I think this is the post of yours that I'm best responding to, although in a different post you said that I'm not addressing you directly/reaching out to you. That's true, I don't think that has value anymore, so I'm trying to prevent other players from scumreading/voting me, and trying to discredit what you're saying.

As for this post: Any player being pushed has two options regarding a player pushing them (three if you count null reading). Town reading or scum reading. I'm townreading you. Titus, as scum, townread you in a different game (which I've never read) when she was mafia. If you make it a binary choice of town/scum reading a player, and assign each one 50%, that's 25% chance that me and Titus 'treat you the same way'. It's not so unlikely, as to prove that we are buddies in a PT together. The logic you used to get here is insanely bad, so yeah I'm just highlighting that for other players.

Nice try but you leave out the most damning part:

(which I actually think is fake but still town).

You are specifically calling my claim "fake, but town".

That doesn't fit into the read binary narrative you're trying to present.

That is the scumslip involved.

Titus, in a different game, said "I think mastina is town, but her claim is fake".
You, by your own confession, have no familiarity with Titus from that game.
Titus, in this game, was scum, and would communicate her thoughts to her scumbuddies.
You, in this game, said "I think mastina is town, but her claim is fake".

That isn't "I think mastina is town, but wrong on me"--you're quite correct that's a reasonable stance to take!
But it isn't what you said.
You brought my claim into it. Specifically my claim. Calling the claim fake.

And

that

is the scumslip. To call my claim town-but-fake, in the exact way Titus in a different game called it town-but-fake.

This point is so personal to you and your own experience. I understand the pattern recognition aspect of the similarity of my statement to hers, but to then envisage Titus advising me on how to play around a specific player (you), in such a large game, in a specific scenario (claiming).....this is outside the realm of reasonable speculation, and it comes from a gameview revolved around the self VS the mafia in my opinion. I don't think mafia have the capacity to conceive an idea so egocentric and paranoid. But yeah, wrong but town haha.

There's nothing egocentric about it--it's just basic familiarity with Titus's scumgame from having seen her be scum in over a dozen scumgames and witnessing her process in all of them.

She does, in fact, advise scumbuddies on how to play around a specific player, altho I would like to note that this is again not correctly identifying my point.
My point isn't that Titus told you to say "I think mastina is town, but wrong on me". She couldn't have; I was townreading you while Titus was alive. It'd be literally impossible for her to advise you specifically on how to treat me specifically.

My point is that Titus would have told her scumbuddies her thoughts on me,
And you displayed a viewpoint on me that matches exactly with how Titus would think of me.

Titus couldn't have told you how to react to me scumreading you. Titus couldn't have told you to say my claim is fake but to treat me as town.
But what Titus could do is tell you to townread me;
Separately, what Titus WOULD do is tell her scumbuddies her thoughts on my claim.

The latter half is in of itself the problem; the former half is only supporting it as very likely having also happened given the latter half.

Titus, in a past scumgame, stated of me: "mastina's claim is fake, but I think she's town".
Titus, in this game, didn't state that publicly, but would have done so privately.
You, in this game, stated of me: "mastina's claim is fake, but I think she's town".
You wouldn't have been told to do that by Titus.
But you

would

have access to Titus having said it privately, and would channel her thoughts on players, because Titus coaches her scumbuddies and gives feedback to them especially in relation to big names like me especially if her scumbuddies are less familiar with them.

Titus wouldn't have told you to say "mastina's claim is fake, but I think she's town".
Titus would share to her scumbuddies that she thought my claim is fake, in spite of me being town.
Titus would give her scumbuddies coaching and advice for a path to victory.
Titus's scumbuddies, having been given this coaching and advice, would be more likely to channel her thoughts from the scum PT, in efforts to follow her guide.
Titus's scumbuddies would thus, having access to her "mastina's claim is likely fake", channel it into the game thread.

And thus, the usage of "mastina's claim is fake, but I think she's town" is in fact a scumslip, because Titus would put that thought in the scum PT; Titus would coach her scumbuddies; Titus's scumbuddies, having received the coaching, would channel her thoughts from the scum PT.
Titus wouldn't have told her scumbuddies to say "mastina's claim is fake, but I think she's town", but Titus having thought it in the scum PT and having coached her scumbuddies would make her scumbuddies more likely to channel Titus's thoughts--including her having said that.

[mastina]

I don't have a concrete reason for it in my head but Dannflor doesn't feel like scum to me.

I, however, DO have a concrete reason for Dannflor being town!
Of the living players, he was THE strongest pusher of both Titus being scum AND Roden being town. He didn't just say "Titus is scum, Roden is town" and then let Roden die; he actually HARD-PUSHED for trying to eliminate Titus on D2.

That makes him just as clear as Lukewarm.

Exactly jjh/S_S doesn't seem right, they're also two players that I don't think I'd get a solid townread on easily if they were town (I do think one scum there is probably a good shout though?).

Something_Smart is pretty much hard-spewed not scum from Titus/Ircher interactions.

That, aside from Something_Smart looking town by play.

So even if it were jjh (and I don't think it is), he'd need a scumbuddy.

I've given my reasons for thinking furtive + fire works as a scumteam.
What works as a jjh scumteam? Not much!

[mastina]

Mastina retracted a guilty on Fire.

I did no such thing; the guilty is still a guilty--we just need to prove it.

[Malakittens]

andres Mastina n ydrasse is town

Prove me wrong

[mastina]

As you can clearly see with the Titus push for Ircher / subsequent flip, the Scum came to the quick conclusion that being

on

Ircher was the better place to be than off. I’m not suggesting all of the Scum bussed Ircher (though it’s certainly possible), but I do feel like voting there was the right strategic push.

YO, Andre:

firing

Ircher [11]:

mastina, Lukewarm, Titus, furtiveglance, Ausuka, RCEnigma, Klick, BlueBloodedToffee, Vivax, PenguinPower, petapan

[HAMMER]

Roden [1]:

Uncrowned

If you believe that scum thought being on Ircher was the better place to be than off...

...How do you reconcile that belief with the fact that Uncrowned in fact hopped off? At the very time which you say scum thought being on Ircher was the better place to be?

Uncrowned is town by your own logical thought process. And it happens to be one I agree with.

You CAN clearly see with the Titus push for Ircher and the subsequent flip that the scum came to the quick conclusion that being on Ircher was the better place to be than off.
But Uncrowned hopped

off

of Ircher at

around that time

.

I don't give a rat's ass about 5 scum or 4 scum.
What I do care about is Ircher freezing. Ircher's last log in was today this morning after he was first asked about the question regarding his assumptions. While it may not be a slip, the freezing doesn't look good.

VOTE: Roden

Titus doubled down on the Ircher push

at the same time Uncrowned hopped

off

of Ircher

.

That hard-clears Uncrowned by your own thought process.

Scum, at that point in the game, felt there was more value in being on the Ircher wagon.
Uncrowned hopped

off

of the Ircher wagon.
Ergo, Uncrowned did not feel there was more value in being on the Ircher wago.
Therefore, EITHER: scum at that point in the game did not in fact believe there was more value in being on the Ircher wagon (Uncrowned can still be scum),
OR: scum did in fact believe there was more value in being on the wagon and Uncrowned is town (what I believe).

[mastina]

Btw Mala: Happy birthday!

[Ydrasse]

VOTE: furtiveglance

Okay

[jjh927]

Yoooo birthday paradox

I just turned 25

[mastina]

How does that set me up for success exactly, as Scum?

How does Uncrowned hopping

off

the Ircher wagon when the Ircher wagon was gaining momentum and scum knew Ircher was doomed,
Set Uncrowned up for success, exactly?

It doesn't.

[mastina]

even ending up voting Roden at the end of D1 and not being able to find a way back onto Ircher on time.

And scum gain

what

from being off the Ircher wagon, Andres?
Scum not managing to get back onto Ircher get WHAT from it?

You're literally using your lack of presence on the Ircher wagon as a reason why you are town--

why are you not using the logic that makes you town, on Uncrowned?

The very things which make you town, make him town.

[mastina]

But you know who they consistently SR’ed that actually ended up being mis-executed (and was therefore, not NK’ed)? Roden. I don’t think you should ignore that or brush it off like you are here.

You know who I also consistently scumread that ended up being mislimmed?

Roden.

I don't think you should ignore that or brush it off like you are here.

If you believe I am town, then the proof that a town player could do what Uncrowned did is literally right here.

I'm not going to be convinced a slot is scum for doing a thing that I did when I know I am town.

[mastina]

i mean just the idea that it was being brought up strategically to take pressure off a buddy, i really don't buy that being a thing someone (even titus) actually thinks about. stuff like that almost always gets found organically.

ok, this makes more sense. though I guess the question becomes how do you determine what is and isn't organic
I feel like this might be a good thing to take note of though and return to once some flips have happened

And this is soft defending Titus.

I think you're reading it backwards; that ain't a soft defense. That's a soft Titus-could-be-scum take. It's explicitly acknowledging that peta might be onto something, something that extra flips would then help to evaluate the accuracy of.

VOTE: Roden
time to play the game my friend

And then they find a reason to jump off once Nero starts saying that Ircher might be a mis-execution.

That is a towntell, not a scumtell. Ircher was in antispew mode at that point. Uncrowned hopping

off

of Ircher does not further the scum wincon there.
At that stage, hopping off of Ircher does nothing to prevent the Ircher wagon from going through.
At that stage, hopping off of Ircher removes any credit that could be had from bussing him.

So hopping

off

of Ircher hard-townspews him.

This is a very charitable interpretation of Uncrowned’s posts. petapan was very adamant that Titus was Scum. Them asking them to explain their take and then saying something like “well it really depends on what you feel is and isn’t organic” is surely a soft defense. It’s planting a seed of doubt in the mind of a player that was loudly pushing for Titus.

We were eliminating Ircher that day--"after some flips" = after an Ircher flip and the scum nightkills. There's nothing scum about tabling an elimination of one scum who has no wagon, in favor of eliminating one scum who has a wagon.

You are giving an incredibly uncharitable interpretation of Uncrowned's posts. Tabling the Titus point until a later day phase was the correct play there for town.

[mastina]

Yoooo birthday paradox
I just turned 25

Happ birf!!!

[Datisi]

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