Datisi's Café [game over!]

[Datisi]

vote count 4.05

with 12 votes in play, it takes 7 to make a decision. day 4 ends in (expired on 2022-10-14 01:15:00).

firing

furtiveglance [5]:

mastina, jjh927, PenguinPower, Dannflor, Ydrasse

fireisredsir [2]:

Malakittens, Uncrowned

Uncrowned [2]:

Andresvmb, furtiveglance

Andresvmb [1]:

fireisredsir

not voting [2]:

Klick, Something_Smart

mod notes

~ this is a mod note.

flavour

flavour

now playing...
♫

x - sunce i mesec

♫
▶ ❚❚ ────────────────────────────●──  2:22 / 2:34

[furtiveglance]

I hear the voices of my ancestors...they call to me. I'm close now.

I want to clear up a few things.

I think Mastina is a good player. I never said they were bad, just that their reads haven't hit mafia since D1. And I'm not mafia either. But they are playing well just by virtue of being obvtown.

I can see that I'm going to be voted out shortly. That's ok. My claim won't really change anything, you can ask for one before hammering if you want to.

I'm not satisfied with how I played this game. I don't mean my reads. I supported 1/2 votes on mafia, and opposed 1/1 vote on town. I mean my interactions with other players, especially town that I scumread. I should have been more diplomatic. I'm starting to see survivalism as a useful trait for both alignments, not just mafia. I know other players think I've refused to engage with them, and I regret that more than anything.

My final guess for mafia is [Malakittens, Uncrowned]. I think these slots will both get voted out long before ELO scenarios. I think town will win this game.

[fireisredsir]

@fire I’m not really going to defend not voting for Ircher. But I’m not sure I get what Scum agenda I’m supposedly pushing. In any case, being wrong doesn’t mean anything, but I can’t fault you for being suspicious I guess. You are, however, way off, and I really wouldn’t play like this as Scum.

its not really just about not voting for ircher. there's a lot of places where it just feels like you're positioned right where, looking back, it seems useful for scum to be. i can go into more detail later if you want

and there's not a lot that really feels like it makes more sense coming from town that i see

what do you mean by you wouldn't play like this as scum? what do you think you've done this game thats different from your scum game?

I don’t agree. As you can clearly see with the Titus push for Ircher / subsequent flip, the Scum came to the quick conclusion that being

on

Ircher was the better place to be than off. I’m not suggesting all of the Scum bussed Ircher (though it’s certainly possible), but I do feel like voting there was the right strategic push. I might have thrown some passing shade at Ircher, but I never voted there, and I questioned the slip. How does that set me up for success exactly, as Scum? Like I said, I don’t know if all the Scum ended up doing this, but to some extent, it wouldn’t surprise me. Ircher was under tremendous pressure from the slip and for the entire period of time they were away from the thread, so that was the right time to create distance from them not to be easily associated with them. I certainly don’t expect any of the Scum to have defended Ircher all that strongly.

Regarding Titus, I was clear from the start that I struggle reading the slot, and it’s also hard to argue a player is Scum when they voted and pushed for Scum to die. I expressed that they had had takes that didn’t seem like they would originally come from Town, but it is difficult I feel to argue with the ultimate result sometimes. But how have I positioned myself right? Most of the players I would typically work with to get a result (and I’ve played with Nero Cain, petapan, Lukewarm, Ausuka in the past, as well as Malakittens, Ydrasse, Something_Smart and maybe fire?) are mostly dead, and obviously mastina and Malakittens are defending me most loudly, and I’m openly disagreeing with mastina’s push, and I haven’t made any approach to work directly with Malakittens. How am I strengthening my position over time? The one player that is trusting me and I’m trusting them back a little bit is Ydrasse who I’m almost certain is Town, and for ~reasons~, I really doubt that perspective helps me long-term. So no, I don’t agree at all with that feeling you have. You’re not giving me any credit for my Nero or Lukewarm reads either but yeah whatever any decent Scum can put out some reads that make sense.

And I mean I don’t really feel like you’re reading me all that closely if you don’t think most of what I’m posting comes from Town. I’m not going to sit here and explain why my perspective is Town. It just is, and if you can’t see it, then that’s on you really. If you want to ask specific questions as to why I came to a particular conclusion, then I can expand upon specific questions but I’m not just going to defend my play against generalities because that’s impossible to do.

Why don’t I think I’ve played like Scum? Because I’ve kept up, read through the game a few times, tried making sense of what’s been going on, and I certainly was focused on getting Titus right yesterday for example which I really don’t have any incentive to do as Scum. I think the biggest differentiator between my Scum and Town game is that you can tell when I care and when I don’t as I make an argument or express a point of view, and I think that piece of my game is really difficult for me to fake. But that’s my take on my own game so take that as you will.

for your first point, yes i absolutely expect that scum took different strategies in how they approached ircher. with titus pushing him pretty hard, id imagine at least one would try to be on the opposite side of things. that seems pretty standard play

as for your play, it's true that you're not like making a whole lot of alliances here which is a decent point tbh. ig it's true that you might be more likely to try to keep people alive that you can play around as scum. i def do the same thing so i understand. but like, peta said you were an easy read later in the game to people who know you, and so i feel like it actually in that case makes a lot of sense to kill the people you've played with before rather than keep them alive to try to get them on your side?

the things that im talking about are like:

- your re-entrance to the thread in 772, not having posted since 77, where you right away push on vivax and say that he's scum "too", even though your ydrasse vote was after only 2 posts from her and seemed p clearly rvs. you then call out a few ydrasse posts, but those are later in your catchup, so there doesn't seem to be any justification for why you think she's scum at this point. and at this point ydrasse is still the second leading wagon behind ircher. seems like you would have a lot of motivation as scum there to stretch an rvs vote into a real one

- your 1049 is throwing shade on people for vote movement within the first 5 pages which seems kind of... a stretch, but more importantly, it seems inconsistent with your earlier reasons for suspecting vivax. before you said he was suspicious if ircher flipped town due the post where he put ircher at e-1 early, but here he's suspicious because he was trying to create a counterpush for ircher, and you ignore the part where he put ircher on e-1, only later talking about his switch to ircher once roden brings it up. it feels cherrypicked and doesn't read as a real town progression

- 1052 is you pushing back against titus scumreads by saying that it's unlikely scum bussed as hard as she did. yet here your position on what the scum were likely doing seems like it's coming from a completely different angle. like yea titus has flipped now and given some info, but based on that post it seems like you would think she was the exception, not an example of how all the scum acted. it's possible for opinions to evolve but this doesn't really feel like a natural evolution, it feels like you coming up with a reason to back up whatever point is convenient to you at the time

- in 1123 and 1190 you overemphasize how lost in the gamestate you are right now (again -- the justification for this makes no sense. one person that you suspected claimed vig, and now your whole gamestate view has been shaken up? it just feels super performative) and use it to hide behind mastina, voting roden, while also absolving yourself of any real guilt or needing to take strong stances by telling roden that "oh actually im not sure who scum is, i just think mastina knows what's going on"

- you return to the thread when roden is at e-1 and say basically that you're still deciding and unsure (but also don't feel any need to move your vote off him while you're deciding) in 2052 (which luke calls you out for). eventually you commit to a stronger read on roden and not wanting to move off him, while also making sure to have a bit of progression on titus in 2256 while still providing a weak reason not to vote there. its really kinda hard for me to view this section of posts as uninformed, the progression on titus and approach to the day just feels incredibly unnatural to come from town

- your approach to the titus/ydra claim situation also felt kinda perfomative, especially 2306, 2317, and 2489, but i don't think there's anything that's not believable coming from town in them. they're just kinda exactly how i would expect scum to respond to their partner getting caught in a lie, and knowing they're inevitably going down




i think you're pretty good at scum from what ive read of bunnies, i don't really feel like anything you've done here is out of the range that i saw from that. the closest thing ive felt to you caring about an argument that you're making and feeling like that passion behind your posts that i felt in ktane was again that argument you had with vivax around page 65 and 66. that's the towniest thing ive seen from you, but i don't think it's at all impossible to fake. in fact you seemed to kinda be going out of your way to stall on having to care about any reads on d2, which would make sense coming from scum who is aware of that being a weakness

[fireisredsir]

anyway i would still like to hear from the people who are strongly townreading andres about reasons for why they are doing that bc maybe im missing something but i really don't see much towny about his play here

on furtive, reading between the lines a bit i think i finally get what mastina is saying better than i did previously, and i think that makes the push there a bit more understandable. i don't really feel it though, i think it's possible for furtive to have the opinions he has as town, and i think he's less likely to express them in the way that he has if he's scum

like the post that jjh called out as not coming from town, it seems like that's a post that isn't going to accomplish anything as scum besides annoy the people that he's talking about?? furtive scum felt p meek and conciliatory when i played against him, i still don't really feel like the attitude matches here

that was one of his first games onsite i believe so it is possible his play has evolved ig, i don't see any recent scumgames so it's hard to know. i still just find the arguments kinda unconvincing tho

[Dannflor]

Yeah actually my head hasn’t really been in this game

But I think FG’s latest posts read a lot like defeated town and honestly I think he behaves much more conciliatory towards me as scum.

I thought he needed to scum read me but that doesn’t really make sense, in what world am I a necessary scum read to anyone? Especially when slots like malakittens exist

I think FG admitting he has too many scum reads and not really doing anything about it is Town Actually. I think jjh not seeing that is a little weird but eh

I like the Andres push. I especially hated “if Ircher flips town, flip this” in reference to Vivax. It feels like directly preparing for an Ircher scum flip.

VOTE: Andres

[Uncrowned]

My final guess for mafia is [Malakittens, Uncrowned].

when did you start to feel this way about me bby

[furtiveglance]

My final guess for mafia is [Malakittens, Uncrowned].

when did you start to feel this way about me bby

When Andres started pushing you

[Uncrowned]

I don’t think I’ve said that Uncrowned is just laying low. You can make that accusation of so many different players. The point I did make is that while voting for Ircher for the slip, they shaded basically every Town that’s flipped (and me for that matter), and put a lot of focus on getting Roden executed,

even ending up voting Roden at the end of D1 and not being able to find a way back onto Ircher on time.

i don't really get this

scumcrowned never needs to vote take vote off ircher i don't think there's a world after what transpired that ircher wasn't the d1 elim

unless you really believe i had enough influence to get roden miselimmed over ircher d1 and still think that ircher would be let off the hook and survive for more days after that

seems a bit contrived to me but that's all wine so do with it what you will

and ok @furtive

idk if i believe it but i don't think you're the elim today so it's chill

let's get mala or S_S!

[Uncrowned]

VOTE: S_S

[Dannflor]

Why S_S

I feel pretty confidently town on SS and I never feel confidently town on SS

[furtiveglance]

I'll vote for Malakittens if that one looks likely.

[Andresvmb]

Just to get it on the record - I suspect Scum wanted to be on Ircher early so not to get suspected given the slip. My thought was that Uncrowned moved away because they (i) chickened out and (ii) could maybe get some momentum going against Roden and divert the wagon away from Ircher. You see, both things can be true: it was advisable to push Ircher given the slip, but perhaps you get cold feet about murdering your Partner so early and look for a way to jump off.

[Andresvmb]

So it doesn’t hard clear Uncrowned that’s ridiculous.

[Andresvmb]

even ending up voting Roden at the end of D1 and not being able to find a way back onto Ircher on time.

And scum gain

what

from being off the Ircher wagon, Andres?
Scum not managing to get back onto Ircher get WHAT from it?

You're literally using your lack of presence on the Ircher wagon as a reason why you are town--

why are you not using the logic that makes you town, on Uncrowned?

The very things which make you town, make him town.

Like I’m not saying this and you’re equating two progressions that are decidedly not the same. It’s almost like you don’t read carefully enough. I was never on Ircher, and I questioned the slip. Uncrowned acknowledged the slip, but found ways to shade every other player around them (and a lot of flipped Town) while not strongly pushing Ircher, and then found an excuse to jump off onto a Town slot that was later mis-executed.

But sure, you convince yourself they’re the same thing.

[Andresvmb]

When your biggest SR claims Vig with a shot that makes sense and they’re not counterclaimed, you assuming that it shouldn’t shake my confidence or my view of the game fire is nonsensical to me.

[Andresvmb]

I was unsure about Roden. I had considered Luke’s argument about the vote movement closely and I was beginning to think I was wrong. I didn’t have time to move and this may come across as revisionist history to you but it doesn’t matter because it’s the truth.

[Andresvmb]

And sure you may expect my reactions to Titus being “Scum who knows their Partner is going down”. You know what they actually are though? Town who finally sees bullshit and isn’t letting them get away with it. But you seem to be interpreting everything I do in the worst possible way so you do you. You’re wrong and the game will prove itself out but I don’t think I need to spend a tremendous amount of time proving that yet.

[Andresvmb]

And again just to be more precise - I don’t think any of the Scum defended Ircher. I don’t think all of them necessarily voted for Ircher, but if they all caught the slip (and clearly they did since Titus was pushing it super early and obviously they all came to the conclusion that distancing was the better choice given Titus’ play), then you should consider how I responded to Ircher versus how Uncrowned reacted to the slot (a vote, shade, not really strong arguments against Ircher, and loudly advocating for two days straight for the execution of Town). As much as it suck to hear, me being wrong or not sure in the face of a relentless push by a Town with sway doesn’t make me Scum.

[Andresvmb]

furtive doesn’t strike me as Scum so I’m not voting there. If they are, great. Then you can execute me next and I can be removed from the POE for defending Scum twice then. But I don’t buy that execution at all and it just screams of being wrong to me.

[fireisredsir]

Just to get it on the record - I suspect Scum wanted to be on Ircher early so not to get suspected given the slip. My thought was that Uncrowned moved away because they (i) chickened out and (ii) could maybe get some momentum going against Roden and divert the wagon away from Ircher. You see, both things can be true: it was advisable to push Ircher given the slip, but perhaps you get cold feet about murdering your Partner so early and look for a way to jump off.

how does this square with the perspective you stated here, which you used to push back on people suspecting titus?

Titus could have been bussing but you would have to think they were on top of Ircher’s case very aggressively and maybe? It’s possible the Scum decided to take alternative tracks in order to not all get lumped together, but I seriously doubt all of the Scum bailed on Ircher immediately.

in the first quote you say that you think scum wanted to be on ircher early, and in the second you say that it would surprise you for most of the scum team to be on ircher early

like if this was real, i would expect that you would see that titus had pushed ircher aggressively early, and decide that she was the exception to your idea that most scum probably didn't do that. i would think it would make you think it's LESS likely for the rest of scum to also be on ircher early, since titus already was. instead it seems like it made you think it's MORE likely

or at least i would expect some acknowledgement that you changed your mind. town change their mind all the time and that's fine. but it doesn't feel like you even noticed the inconsistency in your thought process until i pointed it out which makes me feel like it wasn't a real thought process

[fireisredsir]

When your biggest SR claims Vig with a shot that makes sense and they’re not counterclaimed, you assuming that it shouldn’t shake my confidence or my view of the game fire is nonsensical to me.

i think it makes sense for you to believe that this would happen. like, clearly you do think that's the town reaction. that's my point

but i don't think it makes sense to the extent that you were expressing it, and that's what makes it feel performative

like viva was a lot of people's top suspicion. ik roden, luke, ydra all voted there, and at least a few more were suspicious. luke had way more of a case and way more of a reason to be suspicious of vivax than you did. but after the claim his reaction looks way more natural, evolving thought, and relatively smoothly taking that new info into account and adjusting his worldview based on it and starting a new push

but it's a lot harder for scum to come up with a new genuine-sounding direction and suspicion after the person that they hoped would be a miselim suddenly claims. i think scum is way more likely to get stuck in that position and not feel like they have anywhere else to go, because they aren't genuinely reacting and evolving their worldview

especially like, this is early d2. if it was d5 and you had been pushing vivax as your sole scumread all game, then sure okay, i would expect you to be shaken up a bit. but i don't think the reaction you had makes sense from town, and i think that's evidenced by the fact that none of the other town who were in the same position as you had remotely the same reaction

[fireisredsir]

And sure you may expect my reactions to Titus being “Scum who knows their Partner is going down”. You know what they actually are though? Town who finally sees bullshit and isn’t letting them get away with it. But you seem to be interpreting everything I do in the worst possible way so you do you. You’re wrong and the game will prove itself out but I don’t think I need to spend a tremendous amount of time proving that yet.

and again i just don't really think this is how town responded? like you stick out pretty strongly reading back as someone who really wanted to make sure everyone was aware of how much we needed to eliminate titus, i don't think anyone was performative to that same extent. so saying "well of course town would have this reaction" just doesn't really do much for me bc most of town didn't

like at the time you said that obviously we were eliminating titus. the "im not letting you get away with this!!" just screams performance to me

[Datisi]

prodding PenguinPower and Klick.

[PenguinPower]

v/la through the 16th

[PenguinPower]

I actually don’t really want s_s anymore today…prefer furtive or fire. Will vote mala if needed.