Mini Normal 2283 - Game Over!

[Aisa]

Thanks BBT ^^
I think TSQ comes out of this looking towny. Tbh I feel them getting a bit of a point. I can also see this reaction from Town!BBT, but I think it's a little scum indicative overall, sorry.

What part of it seems town to you, and what part of his reaction moves the needle closer to scum?

Are you asking why BBT's reaction could be town?

I think Town!BBT, like you, wouldn't necessarily give somebody the benefit of the doubt when pushed for a reason he thinks is bad. I think he'd jump right back onto whoever was pushing him, just like he did here.

And although BBT's initial reaction to TSQ's post looks a bit scummy, I don't think there's any point in trying to divine alignment from the fact he continued not to address TSQ's questions for about a page: I think that's something he would do as either alignment. Basically I don't think what he has posted is wholly inconsistent with him being town, there isn't a "part" of his posting that seems towny specifically.

I think you have your answer.

I didn't even say the defensiveness was AI and anyone who has played games with me will know that I don't think defensiveness is a scum tell whatsoever. I was just surprised that the whole tone of the post was as defensive as it was.

As for what moves the needle towards scum for me, this post is worrying because I also interpreted his earlier "defensive much?" as "I think it is suspicious that Eira is so defensive".

[Aisa]

Oh no scratch that maybe it was TvT. Game hard.

[Thestatusquo]

Oh no scratch that maybe it was TvT. Game hard.

what?

[Solway Firth]

Anyways my rough dislike of Aisa reads and reasoning behind it. As said before - seems incredibly superficial.

Both have a sort of playfulness and "unseriousness" while not seeming particularly designed to come across as towny to me. Contrast with my personal experience of playing scum, which is to spend lots and lots of time ruminating over the tone of a post. Not much evidence, but I added the "early page 2" qualifier for a reason.

Not trying to look townie on page one with a early posts that amount to nothing. How surface level is this, do you expect a jump in form Eirlax like "look at me im so town" which frankly goes against your next read with Frogster because if that is your expectation then Frogster was basically trying to shout im town from page 1 and onwards and then you justify your read and double down for lets moveo n.....

I tend to townread lots of quick posting, Frog meets that description, and I don't see where the scum agenda is. Hoping for a textbook case of "guy who appears to be scumhunting is, in fact, scumhunting"

Again. This is superficial and lazy and if you go with your reasoning one first as this person isn't trying to look town, this person is been doing that. Admitted he wanted to be seen as town in later posts when I questioned him on it, and you ignore it because "ohh he is scum hunting so he is scumhunting" I am not expecting in depth analysis but I don't expect it to be this basic for aisa from what I remember of you. This is just like let me throw out townreads and justify them later.

Also what is this

Eira's latest post is also consistent with what I know of their townplay, and my best guess is that the stream-of-consciousness style post would be kind of hard to fake as scum. Did I pocket them or did they pocket me?

Low key buddying. And what even from Eira stream of consciousness couldn't be faked? Do I need to pull it up, because I don't know Eira but i agree that is a "stream of consciousness" I also think it means exactly nothing because their thoughts weren't deep enough to get me to think they were actively engaged high enough for it to be unlikely to come from scum. How couldn't a scum person read the thread and have that stream of consciousness. I don't see it at all. This is saying nothing while trying to say something.

Only thing i like about Aisa is her question to elements on why is bella above null.

This case makes a lot of sense. I admit, I skimmed past several of Asia’s posts on the earlier pages and didn’t take the time to properly verify and analyze Aisa’s points.

[Frogsterking]

The reason it is effective is a psychological difference in how town and scum tend to argue, where scum are generally arguing to win an argument and town are generally arguing to discern alignment. Town is very interested in engaging with the actual meat of a post and discussing where the differences lie whereas scum tend to be more interested in discerning alignment.

I can confirm this is pop psychology and a variation for https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... 27s_Gambit the slayer's gambit.

I wouldn't be surprised if Town is more likely to try to win an argument which makes no sense because presumably they would actually believe in what they're saying and be more emotionally reactive to being told they're wrong.

If anything it's going to be dependent on temperament x alignment hence my survey start.

The more disagreeable someone is the more they will try to win a pointless argument and the less conscientious someone is the less effort they will put into addressing every aspect of a person's argument *in general.* BBT has never filled out my survey and based on my experience with them I can easily see them being low conscientiousness and high disagreeable. In fact I think both Shea and BBT are probably low conscientiousness and high disagreeable.

BBT is lim bait from my experience and if Shea flips Town they can eat crow for putting themselves on a pedestal for rational townplay. If you two complete my survey I might be able to shed some additional light here.

Pedit

My first thoughts reading Shea's posts were "no that's wrong" and "looks like TvT"

[Thestatusquo]

Nah, personality tests have no predictive validity how you're using them so I'll just continue to ignore it.

[Frogsterking]

In fact I think both Shea and BBT are probably low conscientiousness and high disagreeable.

I am low conscientiousness and high(ly) disagreeable

Pedit:

You're wrong Shea the five factor model used by the NEO-IPIP has significant predictive power and you should have taken more classes than Intro to Psychology, you would have learned something

[Thestatusquo]

Not the way you're using it it doesn't.

[Frogsterking]

Not the way you're using it it doesn't.

There is a forum user with a PhD who writes surveys and does research on the five factor model and they collaborated with me to select the questions for this survey I'm using based on their research from on apying the NEO-IPIP.

As for whether or not I'm able to accurately apply it to determine what is AI and NAI, I probably make a lot of mistakes, game is hard, it's bad faith on your part though to suggest I'm completely incompetent.

[Aisa]

Ha
haha
Gotta love that what seemingly unites 80% of the game is a scumread on me. I don't know if I should panic, laugh, shrug it off, or all three. Anyway, let me try to explain.

Also, while I would still like to receive my Personality Reading (TM) from Frog, I would like it to be in a spoiler so everyone else can skip it if they are not interested.

Spoiler: BBT's post

i mean I don't know who made you the grand arbiter of post rating, like is that some sorta accolade comes with a crown? and joking? about what? Fire liking NM? And when did frogster TR me for sorting..... i didn't really sort jack skwat thus far, only got my Asia feel, said i feel greenish on grib, and then later the iffy vibes i got from bella and elements, which isn't much tbh, i think bella is a ghost so meh and elements.... tbh hard to read for me atm.

And then you go on to say i said Elements i chasing the bunny?> after I said, in the post you kwouted, that Fire said that?
And fire did say that, and by that allusion i meant fire's numerous callouts and early focus on Asia.... which pinged me tbh, this early it's just weird, some actions perk me up like a gopher out a hole and that's one of 'em. I mentioned elements having Asia beneath the line, which again, pinged me cos what did Asia do that's scummy when elements posted that list?

So i mean i don't mind if u think my post is bad, whatever, i wasn't amalgamated to impress u, Asia feels town and that's that. This early I like to trust my gut, so i'm a happy sheep >.>

Defensive much?

I can give my opinion on whether a post is bad or not and your post was pretty bad. I did misread some of the post though, I missed where you mentioned Fire being focused on Aisa right after you spoke about Elements. This wasn't as much a defence of Elements as it was an accusation of you not reading the game closely (ironically)

Despite all those words you just posted, you also still haven't explained why you feel so strongly that Aisa is town.

The PEdit was not a reference to you, it was a reference to the post that popped up before I posted. That's pretty clear.

I read this again and on what was the 3rd? 4th? reread I finally wasn't trying to write a post, didn't have 5 different tabs open, and could concentrate on taking in the ~vibes~ of the post. And I sort of buy that BBT was just trying to express confusion rather than trying to shade Eira.

It's a close call and I'm unsure but also hey, at least I got that Shea was town out of the whole exchange so at least that's progress in my book.

[Aisa]

Oh no scratch that maybe it was TvT. Game hard.

what?

(This is what I'm responding to with my previous post).

[Frogsterking]

I would be more open to listening to your idea about the Weak Argument Method even though it's clearly not supported by any research if you weren't so quick to put me down at every opportunity.

[Bellaphant]

I can see what bbt was saying though? Tsq kinda jumped on a thing and then was like 'haha you did a thing' when he responded. It felt like siblings more than s v s or s v t. I don't think tsq is scummy for what they did and I feel they believe in it, I still think it's lame and weird.

[Thestatusquo]

I would be more open to listening to your idea about the Weak Argument Method even though it's clearly not supported by any research if you weren't so quick to put me down at every opportunity.

I think disagreeing with your methods does not equal putting you down. But I also don't think this is a productive use of either of our time, this argument. I do not buy your methods and I don't think there's anything you can say or do that will make me given my experience reading a bunch of your games.

The only thing that's annoying here is you trying to hold me hostage by saying you wont even consider my arguments unless I agree with your scum hunting methods. Which I'm just straight up not going to do because I've seen no evidence they catch scum anywhere.

[Thestatusquo]

Anyway, I doubt I'm moving off of BBT today and I don't like Bellephants response to it because its not really engaging with the point I'm making at all.

[Aisa]

[case on Aisa]

This case makes a lot of sense. I admit, I skimmed past several of Asia’s posts on the earlier pages and didn’t take the time to properly verify and analyze Aisa’s points.

Maybe you might like to vote me or to ask me some questions?

[Grib]

Thanks BBT ^^
I think TSQ comes out of this looking towny. Tbh I feel them getting a bit of a point. I can also see this reaction from Town!BBT, but I think it's a little scum indicative overall, sorry.

What part of it seems town to you, and what part of his reaction moves the needle closer to scum?

Are you asking why BBT's reaction could be town?

I think Town!BBT, like you, wouldn't necessarily give somebody the benefit of the doubt when pushed for a reason he thinks is bad. I think he'd jump right back onto whoever was pushing him, just like he did here.

And although BBT's initial reaction to TSQ's post looks a bit scummy, I don't think there's any point in trying to divine alignment from the fact he continued not to address TSQ's questions for about a page: I think that's something he would do as either alignment. Basically I don't think what he has posted is wholly inconsistent with him being town, there isn't a "part" of his posting that seems towny specifically.

I think you have your answer.

I didn't even say the defensiveness was AI and anyone who has played games with me will know that I don't think defensiveness is a scum tell whatsoever. I was just surprised that the whole tone of the post was as defensive as it was.

As for what moves the needle towards scum for me, this post is worrying because I also interpreted his earlier "defensive much?" as "I think it is suspicious that Eira is so defensive".

I had similar thoughts, but I think that's mostly because TSQ treated me similarly and that makes it almost too easy for me to put myself in BBT's shoes there - I can definitely see a world where a villager pushes back on what they would feel is a cheap "gotcha."

Also agree that all of the posts past the initial reaction are probably more personality-based rather than alignment.

The main point of TSQ's that I agreed with was when BBT cited defensiveness for no real reason. Yeah there are definitely times when I think someone, regardless of alignment, responds to me in an overly-defensive fashion, and that is worthy of poking at. But BBT kind of just left it hanging. I'm also not crazy about the voteswap to TSQ, since it came pretty closely after BBT was leaning into a soft townread on that slot, but that feeling is pretty weak.

[Grib]

I can see what bbt was saying though? Tsq kinda jumped on a thing and then was like 'haha you did a thing' when he responded. It felt like siblings more than s v s or s v t. I don't think tsq is scummy for what they did and I feel they believe in it, I still think it's lame and weird.

This is kind of a unique post and I want to townread it.

[Grib]

I realize I'm townreading most of the active posters.

Problem.

I wish I could murder all the people who aren't really playing.

[Thestatusquo]

@mod feel free to add a he/him to OP for me.

done! -csf

[Aisa]

Link to FB's whole case on me because that is the subject of this post. This has turned out to be a big rant - sorry. However, I also feel like I'm saying stuff that no-one else has said, so I'm still hitting that submit button.

Spoiler:

I think the combination of low-effort post + Eira still throws out two or three reads is more consistent with town that scum. Town has nothing to lose by saying "I think X, Y, Z look green". I think it's a scary thing for scum to come into the game and take position so decisively.

don't think it wasn't such a decisive stance it couldn't be moved easily without anyone even bothering questioning it. So no, disagree.

I agree it could have been moved easily, "decisively" was probably the wrong word. I don't think this undermines my point that it can be a scary thing to do for many players. Or, to be more precise, maybe it does undermine my point slightly, and maybe my logic is broken, maybe I can't explain my judgment in a way that looks reasonable retroactively, but it is still a real judgment.

I see no sign of you being interested in understanding if this is a read I actually *feel* and *believe in*. I feel like you're more interested in nitpicking my argument and holding me to a higher standard than you are holding yourself. If you're town, I would like to ask you to please stop and consider this.

You criticised my page 1-2 read for being "surface level". What else do you expect? It's not like I presented it as anything different.

You said my argument was shallow and did the "I expected better quality from you" thing. Hey, I mean, maybe you're right and there's some sort of difference from my usual play that I cannot perceive. But I actually feel like I am the same Aisa as ever, and behind the quick-and-dirty "I tend to townread lots of quick posting" I did stop, reassess, and decide that I still wanted to stand by that tell.

This is just like let me throw out townreads and justify them later.

Note how the tone is shading, but, even assuming I did what I am accused of, is that scum indicative? If so what am I trying to accomplish?

This is saying nothing while trying to say something.

Hard disagree (with love). I stated reads and stated reasons for having those reads, that gives people plenty to work with.

Also uh, in before this becomes a problem:

[...]
fully expected u to double down in this read.[...]

im chill voting frogster

I actually can't tell if Fire is still sring me from these posts. But it doesn't matter, because I am the one scumcasing Fire now. In Soviet Russia, etc etc

[Aisa]

[...]
I'm also not crazy about the voteswap to TSQ, since it came pretty closely after BBT was leaning into a soft townread on that slot, but that feeling is pretty weak.

I think that's fairly standard for BBT, I wouldn't read much into it.

I can see what bbt was saying though? Tsq kinda jumped on a thing and then was like 'haha you did a thing' when he responded. It felt like siblings more than s v s or s v t. I don't think tsq is scummy for what they did and I feel they believe in it, I still think it's lame and weird.

This is kind of a unique post and I want to townread it.

I realize I'm townreading most of the active posters.

Problem.
[...]

Same and same!

[Solway Firth]

[...]
Also what is this

Eira's latest post is also consistent with what I know of their townplay, and my best guess is that the stream-of-consciousness style post would be kind of hard to fake as scum. Did I pocket them or did they pocket me?

Low key buddying. And what even from Eira stream of consciousness couldn't be faked? Do I need to pull it up, because I don't know Eira but i agree that is a "stream of consciousness" I also think it means exactly nothing because their thoughts weren't deep enough to get me to think they were actively engaged high enough for it to be unlikely to come from scum. How couldn't a scum person read the thread and have that stream of consciousness. I don't see it at all. This is saying nothing while trying to say something.

Only thing i like about Aisa is her question to elements on why is bella above null.

why even are ya'll on Asia? Solway Firth is a sagacious wagon, like they havent even posted yet. Element coming in putting Asia under some line, and fire being like..... ultra focused on finding 'the bunny'......

while Asia has felt pretty much wholly green to me after a few one-liners exchanged.

this whole frogster/fire thing is cluttering up this early imo, it all seemed mostly to be i nterpersonal meta and as eira dont meta eira dont read.... much at least. I mean of the two i'd say i'd ay i feel worse on fire..... pretty much for abhorrent mood page 1. then again fire adores n_m so there's hope i gues >.>

SO meh today is a lazy day for me imma play monster train and endless legend. I think my vote's in a pretty good spot tbh........ firth's gotta pitch at least, and enchant. I'll trust Asia for now, no strong feelings on others buuut maybe..... Grib doees feel a bit more green than the mass? Like viewing things with an open yet uninformed mind. So yeah like way later gators

Like this is the "stream of consciousness" aisa says would be hard faked from scum.
And I read it and thought "this person skimmed and didn't think that intensely on posts" that was my take away from the stream of thought I got from reading the internal mindof Eira.

What I'm doing is *high-key buddying, you growlie.

You yourself say you read that post and thought it was low effort. Will you humour me and let me assume it was a low-effort post for a second?
I think the combination of low-effort post + Eira still throws out two or three reads is more consistent with town that scum. Town has nothing to lose by saying "I think X, Y, Z look green". I think it's a scary thing for scum to come into the game and take position so decisively.

Hence, I think your impression that Eira "skimmed and didn't think that intensely on posts" would actually support Eira being town.
Agree/disagree?

Also UNVOTE: from RVS.

This doesn’t actually address the original point. Your argument was previously that Eira’s stream of consciousness post couldn’t be faked, but now you’re arguing that Eira is town because of a general principle. And, the general principle you’re using to justify your read on Eira is something that is easily faked. You’re also misrepresenting Eira’s stream of consciousness post. Eira expressed fairly weak townreads on a number of people, but you’re framing Eira’s post as if they’re declaratively stating that X, Y, and Z are town. This looks like scum faking a read and then flubbing the response under pressure.

[Thestatusquo]

I'm kind of confused by the "everyone posting is town and ughhhh" sentiments.

Everyone has posted in the last day except for one player. Most of them fairly substantively. Is there anyone in the lurkers y'all in particular want more conversation from?

[Thestatusquo]

I should have lurkers in scare quotes because I don't really think anyone is super lurking this game so far.