Mini Normal 2283 - Game Over!

[Enchant]

Why do you think Enchant is Town, Frogster?

I'm shamelessly and fearlessly abusing meta

Fool

[Solway Firth]

Reading through the BBT/Shea fight, BBT’s reaction to Shea seems very avoidant of the actual questions Shea’s asking him. I also like the way Shea presents the case, his tone gives off legitimate charisma and annoyance meanwhile BBT comes off as more forced.

[Aisa]

I'd also be interested in Solway's readslist. It doesn't have to be long or thought-out, it doesn't even have to include everyone, it can literally just be a list of gutreads.

Why do you think Enchant is Town, Frogster?

I'm shamelessly and fearlessly abusing meta

What is this meta?

[Eiralox]

busier than usual on my end i'll be cathching up in a few hours

[Thestatusquo]

Herpa derp *towns about*

This post doesnt really fit into my idea of what town frogster looks like.

What do you even envision frogster scum to look like tbh cause i don't townread him, i think i made that clear but im struggling with what scum frogster looks like.


Cause theres points here where i go why does frogster scum do X. Seems antithetical to trying to convince people he town. Yet he wants townreads.
Ive been going back and forth lately on this

I do not feel confident about reading frogster rn.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Will be getting to this tonight at some point. If not, for sure over the weekend

[Aisa]

We seem a bit thinly spread and there are 4 days left. May I suggest we start thinking of a Compromise Wagon? Frogster is my favourite of the existing ones. I'm not really in the mood to do analysis atm, but I promise words tomorrow.

[Aisa]

We seem a bit thinly spread and there are 4 days left. May I suggest we start thinking of a Compromise Wagon? Frogster is my favourite of the existing ones. I'm not really in the mood to do analysis atm, but I promise words tomorrow.

[Thestatusquo]

How about everyone votes BBT instead.

We have a bunch of people who seem not willing to wagon at all.

[Aisa]

BBT I'm willing to consider, though I'd probably want to do a reread and maybe find a case that is not your existing case. But I suppose doing all that is my problem, not yours.

[Solway Firth]

I don’t understand BBT strong townread on Bella. Bella’s ISO is some posts complaining about the game state and a bit fairly good content. I don’t see anything that jumps out as a shining beacon of towniness, Bella’s tone seems neither towny nor scummy and her analysis isn’t very deep.

[Aisa]

Do you think that means BBT is faking the read on Bella?

[Thestatusquo]

BBT I'm willing to consider, though I'd probably want to do a reread and maybe find a case that is not your existing case. But I suppose doing all that is my problem, not yours.

I find this to be a pretty weird way of approaching the game. In one post you're like we need to wagon someone, which is generally true, then when I say ok, lets wagon here, you're like well I am willing to consider that but that's not generally how day 1 wagons work, they start with the smallest thing and then that leads to pressure that then in turn leads to action.

So it's like...I don't really understand your need for an airtight case to wagon someone and I'm having an even harder time squaring that with your stated desire to "find a consensus wagon" because like, homie, how do you think mafia works on day 1? We dont just all sing kumbaya and then hold hands and decide all together on one true scum candidate.

[Thestatusquo]

*willing to consider that but I don't really have enough information

My brain went faster than my typing.

[Thestatusquo]

I also don't think anyone has really dealt with my argument that BBTs response specifically ignoring the important parts and focusing on the hook they can use to make me look discredited represents a scum arguing mindset and not a town one. All the responses have focused on saying that BBT would continue to respond to me like they did after I attacked them (which I don't agree with either, but w/e) but ignore the fact that my point starts before that.

[Thestatusquo]

I am leaving frogster for now. I think they're a pretty easy d1 target for scum and I don't feel super confident there at the moment and I think the slot is going to resolve itself in the long run.

[Firebringer]

I also don't think anyone has really dealt with my argument that BBTs response specifically ignoring the important parts and focusing on the hook they can use to make me look discredited represents a scum arguing mindset and not a town one. All the responses have focused on saying that BBT would continue to respond to me like they did after I attacked them (which I don't agree with either, but w/e) but ignore the fact that my point starts before that.

i def responded to ur argument

[Firebringer]

BBT I'm willing to consider, though I'd probably want to do a reread and maybe find a case that is not your existing case. But I suppose doing all that is my problem, not yours.

why even ask for compromise wagon if u need to have a case or scumread.

And didn't u say BBT posting was bad awhile back.
I specifically thought u distanced urself from him or was that frogster.

[Thestatusquo]

Nah, you said

ohh yeah and shea push on BBT is a nothing burger. I read it. Not impressed could go over point by point if anyone interested but mostly it amounts to pushing BBT for saying things that serve no purpose for alignment hunting (dismissing and poisoning well) - which i don't read that into the posts
like just this part

Which is not what my argument was. That was the cause of the discussion and questions that led to my argument, but it wasn't the reasoning behind why it was scummy, which was this:

I didn't even use the buzzword of 'overdefensive' that you keep referencing. I said 'Defensive much'. This isn't even a big thing and is certainly not the bulk of what was my response to Eira so why are you focusing on that?

So this is fun, because what I'm doing here is a reaction test called "deliberately weak argument."

Which is where I make a post with a bunch of interaction points in it and one of them is "deliberately weak." I.e. a point thats easily refuted and responded to whereas the others require actual work or analysis.

The reason it is effective is a psychological difference in how town and scum tend to argue, where scum are generally arguing to win an argument and town are generally arguing to discern alignment. Town is very interested in engaging with the actual meat of a post and discussing where the differences lie whereas scum tend to be more interested in discerning alignment.

This is one of the more blatant fails of the deliberately weak argument test that I've ever seen. Obviously you didnt say over defensive, but I fail to see how that is relevant to the questions I asked you which you completely ignored in order to ridicule me for using the wrong turn of phrase.

anyway VOTE: BBT

I didn't respond to you at the time because you claim to have read the exchange and didn't even end up with an accurate understanding of my argument, which I thought I was pretty clear about.

[Thestatusquo]

Ok, can you answer me this then. If you're not saying that its alignment indicative, what is your point in pointing it out using a buzz word like "overdefensive" which is frequently associated with scumminess? If you're not saying its scummy it seems an awful lot like well poisoning to me.

What are you trying to accomplish in your questions with Eirolox? Because it seems to me a lot like you're grandstanding with no particular purpose towards discerning alignment.

I didn't even use the buzzword of 'overdefensive' that you keep referencing. I said 'Defensive much'. This isn't even a big thing and is certainly not the bulk of what was my response to Eira so why are you focusing on that?

The discussion which you're responding to is a followup to this interaction. This interaction followed by the post I'm just quoting is why I think BBT is scum, the discussion of my actual questions, when they actually got around to answering them, which is what you're talking about here, and my interpretation of that discussion is independent of this original point.

[Firebringer]

my brain not working ill read this later

[Thestatusquo]

Town addresses my questions. Town doesn't spend their whole post harping on whether they said "defensive much" or "over defensive" while ignoring the rest of the post.

It's not 100% because scum tells never are but I think its more than enough for a day 1 wagon.

[Aisa]

That's a very good explanation of why you're confused.

If we were 1 hour from the deadline I would be willing to wagon, hammer, double-hammer, triple-nuke-hammer anyone including myself. If we were 2 days from the deadline I'd look at like, the top two wagons and pick my favourite. We're 4 days from the deadline which means that realistically we're actually not in *that* much danger, but I wanted to start ramping up the rhetoric around finding a consensus because hopefully, by the time we are at the deadline, we will actually have a decent elimination rather than whatever poor soul we felt like panic-flash-wagoning at the time.

There's also the fact that your pick just happened to be unfortunate because I'd feel bad about voting BBT *right now* specifically because, aside from your case, which I've been over, I couldn't tell you something I find scummy about him, I just find him hard to read and would be scared of townreading him without a lot of evidence. But also maybe I'm still being unfair because if you poke around you'll find that I have more townreads-I'm-not-willing-to-wagon than average this game.

But also, uh, you're right, maybe I'm being a bit too conservative. I don't know if this does anything since maybe I have killed any pretense of pressure with this post and my previous one, but have this as a show of good faith:
VOTE: BBT

I guess BBT said he'll be looking at the game soon, so let's say that I will commit to seeing what he comes up with and decide whether to leave my vote here or not based on what he says ^^

P-edit: oh dear you guys are prolific

[Thestatusquo]

Aisa do you have a town and scum game of yours I could read?

[Aisa]

Town game: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=89712

Scum game: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=89811
PT: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=90&t=89813