Warrior Cats Mafia [Day Three]

[NorwegianboyEE]

Alisae lost interest in Mastina for some reason im not sure i understand, but i'll revert back to my initial vote until then.

VOTE: Marashu

[Frozen Angel]

Anyway, I am curious to hear a deeper take on some of the things I've said in 261 and 279.

Spoiler:

153 I hate. The posture (facesit, are either of these words even the right word) between SS and Bell just reads wolf.

167 also just reads like scumposting...

Honestly even the vote on bell now that I am reading the context around it...

WindClan activity seems weirdge for them as well
They wanted to go after Misty for 175.
They also said they don't see any reason behind the bear's reads.
He asks Norwee if he feels that he is on the same page I am and here I am going ??? because like what kind of question is that???

Is this scum or am I reading a lot of the things he does as just scummy?

I'm not sure I buy bell's explanation, and I'm also reading an twinge of complaint in SS's 31 regarding the mod having potentially screwed over dark forest - and I don't understand why there would be "a hard time parsing this from any alignment." If you are Starclan, there is no need for a sample PM, because the sample PM is sitting in your inbox, no?

Nobody else seems to have had any trouble, and, while yes, I can see how being simultaneously a member of Starclan + a neighbourhood clan might be a source of potential confusion; I am wondering how it is possible to confirm in reply to the role PM ones "role and alignment" whilst that confusion remains. Surely you sort that out there and then while confirming?

What am I missing?

I don't understand why you hate it, but i do understand that you hate it. He made a conjecture based on the info he had(Like i did), nothing more nothing less.

And I don't think confirming role + alignment rules out clan confusion; it's usually easy to tell alignment from coloring + lack of partners/obvious scum info, even if you don't fully understand the factions or the wincon.

It may be obvious from the colouring + lack of partners that your role pm is one belonging to the uninformed majority, but if you were in possession of such, you would also have (and I assume it's acceptable to quote directly now it is given publicly) the wincon given to starclan -

"You and all other members of the protectors of StarClan win when all Dark Forest cats have been eliminated."

- which is patently clear on the issue bell expressed confusion about.

Shading others while boasting about the knowledge town should have, passively implying he is town - check

That's my hypothesis - that scum!bell was trying to replicate that selfmeta of 'derping about set up early game and asking the most basic questions that are usually also “town slippy”' without access to a critical piece of information - how the wincon was presented to starclan; and thus failing to realise there was zero, none, nada ambiguity there to 'town slip' over. I don't buy the post-sample explanation that starclan!bell thought "dark forest cats" was some larger descriptor for two or more scum clans without also believing that starclan was some larger descriptor for the town clans, and thus windclan, thunderclan, etc to be pure; and that's never going to pass review. It's nonsensical.

The hypothesis makes sense, but overselling it is scummy imo

I can easily see town!SS realising this situation has only arisen because of the lack of a publicly posted sample PM, and thus suffer some sort of second-hand guilt on behalf of the dark forest for having a member outed so early over what is arguably a mod mistake, but why defend him now?

Answering his on question at the end but not forgetting some more shading - check

From a perspective of someone who doesn't know the history between Alisae and norwegian this feels pretty iffy to me.

I am without a doubt the best player on the table to read the player???
- I have lots of games with him. We've been town together, we've been scum together, and we've been oppositely aligned before.
- He LITERALLY came out of his way to play with me. It makes sense, it's been awhile and I just came back from a 1 year vacation.
- I have an understanding of how he is as a person based on things he how he has acted before and past experiences. We've hydra'd before and that gave me a good idea into his thought processes at the time.
- I have a neighborhood with him. In this neighborhood, he is posting his thoughts. I have access to these thoughts.

Like, what is there to be iffy about???

That's why i said from the perspective of someone who doesn't know the history between you two.
I can see you both white-knighting him as well as pocketing him.

This was hell posting on the phone

it is white-knighting regardless of the history. but is it cause of a confident read, an attempt to pocket or to protect a buddy is the real question.

People in wind clan can probably tell how much ali engaged with norwee if any?

yet I dont think it was scum - scum

@FrozenAngel: why aren’t you scum this game?

cause I received a town role pm from mod

what kind of questioning is that?

Busy cookies.

Sorry for vanishing. I learned i passed my entrance exams for drama School and I didnt have time. I am starting next week,wll participate for now but if i dont manage to have free time i moght sadly replace out:( Shame it was a wonderful player list.

Hugs and cookies and congratulations!

The strength of Alisae's scumread on Val is overblown, in a way that I feel indicates that Val caught Alisae and Norwee's interaction being scum-scum for what it is.

There is absolutly no way Alisae and Norwee interaction were scum-scum

great minds and all that

[mastina]

I'm late for leaving for work but I have to say: any mentions of me not doing things should perhaps pay attention to how I was last active on Friday, I take Saturdays off, and then I got blindsided by a double-shift on Sunday that instead of leaving me with 8 hours of free time left me with only two and that for the last two days I have done literally everything I can to stay afloat but I'm not there yet because I genuinely haven't had the time thanks to the work double-shift.

But that content IS coming. Today I should have more time.

[mastina]

Btw I have been in a bad mood since Saturday (technically Friday night and onward) and haven't recovered since then. I was in a bad mood Sunday for even more obvious reasons, and my bad mood continued into yesterday.

Today is no different. I am still in a bad mood, worsened by being a hot mess. I was 40 minutes late waking up, still didn't get enough sleep in spite of that, had poor quality sleep, dealt with a wardrobe malfunction, left home without eating breakfast, was 20 minutes late for work, didn’t feed two very hungry cats, and more.

So, if I come across as overly hostile, my apologies. Best I can hope for is that this isn’t going to come across as a personal attack. I normally wouldn't post during times that I'm this angry since they risk getting me removed from the game and/or banned, but I genuinely have no choice but to.

On that note:
I realize that scumastina is well-known for falling behind.
But anyone trying to use that to shade me can fuck off. There's VERY obvious reasons for my inactivity here and struggling to stay up to date. Those factors happen regardless of my alignment and are thus NAI because they are rl-related.

What IS alignment indicative is my RESPONSE to the rl shit.
As scum, I literally do nothing when rl shit hits. The reasons vary, the results are near-universal: literally doing nothing.
And don't you fucking dare try to say, "but mastina, you're doing nothing right now".
I very clearly am not doing LITERALLY nothing.
When I say scumastina does literally nothing, I mean LITERALLY NOTHING BUT PROD DODGING, zero content in the prodges. Literally. Zero.

You can say I'm not doing MUCH right now, but that "not much" is still higher than the absolute zero which is the actual scumastina tell. I, very clearly, am trying.

On that note, more about my FA read in this game:
My FA read in this game is very similar to my StD read in the two concurrent games, Pokémon Gen1+2 and Gypyx's AI Upick.
I knew that StD had a night/day difference between his town play and his scumplay, but I didn’t remember which was which.
I could tell that he was playing to his meta, but I initially didn’t have the time to sort which was which. Like FA is this game, I had a fairly high level of confidence in remembering the tell differentiating his towngame and scumgame. But I didn’t have the time to research which was which, until much much later.

So while I knew that there was a night/day difference between his alignments, I didn't know for SURE which was which. My read on him was only about 90%, until I had the time to do the research.

That took weeks for me to find the time to do, but once I finally DID do the research, the 90% jumped to 100%.

Same story here.
I know FA has a night/day difference between her towngame and scumgame, same way StD did back then.
I am pretty sure that I know which is which, at 90%, same as back then for StD.
But I haven't had the time to do the research YET. It took weeks, closer to MONTHS, for me to find the time to do that for StD.

And here, it hasn't been weeks closer to months for FA, now, has it?
So, I WILL do the research. When I have the time. I just haven't yet, because, y'know.
Too much rl shit.

I'm still confident that this is the town half for FA tho.

[KittyTacky]

I was rereading.

I said my case as for why I'm town

you'll have noticed that i still think you're scum after it

Your mistake.

Why did you not respond to what i said.

I missed it. I often miss things, especially when I'm not quoted.

This?

I think Alisae is town.
Alisae thinks i am town.
Val thinks it’s really unlikely for me/Alisae team.

So what? We’re all scum saving each others ass?

Yes.

Just do the math and back off.

No.

Yah. Any chance for more nuanced thoughts from you would be great. Most players in my hood think your vote on me was bad. So any chance at learning more about your thoughts would be grand

The passive-aggressive tone and appeal to popularity here seems more likely scum than town imho.

KittyTacky's response to pressure is a lot different from what I remember of scum!KittyTacky in turing test

here there's a lot more indignation "This is my town game!!~" sorta stuff

there it was "sorry, I'm playing so poorly"

I went and took a look and I don't really see the difference you're talking about? Here's a few select posts from turing test:

Spoiler:

Dear God, this whole "I don't get scumread" thing is insufferable.
I don't think it's necessarily scummy, because the same thing happened somewhat in Terminator, but it IS obnoxious and makes the game way harder to follow for anyone else.


Anyway,
VOTE: Greeting
Ignoring the actual substance of posts in favor of superficial "tells" is probably as scummy as it's gonna get D1.

Did a reread of the whole game so far, yeah I can sheep this.
VOTE: Greeting

I think KittyTacky is a better vote tbh Bell

VOTE: Kitty

Why do you think he's scum?

He is shading without specificity - which tends to be scum going through the motions rather than actually thinking about who is mafia

I do this as town tho.

Don't like Dannflor, mostly.

I have trouble believing you actually scumread Dannflor because you have done literally nothing to push or sort him.

I was busy IRL and feeling out of this game, and I think Greeting is scummier at this point anyways.

@Kitty, I would really like your read on Vivax. Can we not run him up before this gets answered please?

Rather scummy.

I just... do poorly in mountainous games as I found out. It's slightly demoralizing having no play around PRs to find scum/town with.

Here's some posts from this game:

Spoiler:

and the post restriction (which makes no sense given him barely having any posts to begin with

I normally hyperpost my stream of consciousness, I would have already been close to bumping up against the limit if I didn't switch to wallposting. This is what kinda miffs me.

@marashu @kitty what are your reads on each other and what do you think about the cases on each other?

Marashu lowkey independently scum on tone (can't quite put my paw pad on it) but the case also makes sense, I'll switch if the Norwe wagon dies.

KittyTacky's response to pressure is a lot different from what I remember of scum!KittyTacky in turing test

here there's a lot more indignation "This is my town game!!~" sorta stuff

there it was "sorry, I'm playing so poorly"

Then vote Marashu and not me. I'm town.

I don't know what to make of this. Rather than town/scum this feels more like jester play at this point.

yeah idk Kitty might just be scum

I'm town.

I guess you could squint and say there's a bit of a tonal difference where in the other game he was more defeatist but the thing that's standing out to me is the over-reliance on excuses for lack of content - in the other game it was being busy and the setup being mountainous, here it's the game being a large theme and the post restriction (which makes no sense given him barely having any posts to begin with). Like, are these really all that different?

it's not a big difference no, I just mainly thought there was a contrast between

2.1 I am playing, just I feel I'm doing so poorly and I don't know what to do.

and "This is my fucking town game" from this game

Kitty feels marginally more invested in continuing to sort / explain reads / ask questions here than in Turing Test where he made a long string of contentless posts or posts lamenting that he was scum read

it's not really the biggest difference but it just gives me some pause

As scum I just collapse under heavy pressure if I can't think of a play (like a ballsy claim) to save the day. But as town I fight to the end. You can see this in all of my games.

I'm town, I play weird but I'm town. Nothing else to say, if anyone has any questions you can ask.

what are your reads

Charloux, Alisae, Marashu, Norwee varying degrees of scummy. Townleans on most others, but strong TRs on Datisi, fire, catboi, BEAR, and mastina.

I have also used a postcap as an excuse for low volume as scum lol

and I remember dwlee doing it in the geriatric game I modded

I mean why can't it be a town thing. I know it's irrational, but I am an emotional person.

Also: I agree that the post cap has a psychological impact. I bet that's why no one is doing fun things for me to enjoy

Yeah, kinda surprised that people don't get it. I'm not a robot...

also i think there is a very VERY big difference between me and kitty saying "i'll be posting less because of post cap" -- mainly because i have actually produced. alot of content DESPITE THE POSTING WHILE HE HASN'T

And? Different things affect people differently.

more in the vein of "if people are pushing this slot with inaccurate reasoning, why is that not an indicator that scum are faking a case on the slot"

if they wanna bus, they can

it doesn't change the fact that i think kitty is scummy and want to see him run up

This is town, doubt scum would latch on to a townie this hard.

---

Will continue with a second wall for sanity's sake.

[KittyTacky]

there is a whole lot of sass coming from datisi rnow and im associating that with towniness maybe incorrectly

I'd think scum would be more subtle. Datisi pretty strongly town, imo latching on to someone like a tick is more likely a town thing as scum rarely kamikazes like that.

KittyTacky occupies a space of... I would not be surprised at all if they flipped scum and they are overtly scummy, but that I have a hard time telling whether that scumminess is just a facet of their personality or not. and so I feel there are bigger and better fish to fry

Anyone who played with me often enough can attest to my weird playstyle. It often gets me scumread. But it's how I play.

ISO of kitty tacky I can see why the slot is scum read and I share the notion

The Charloux slip case makes sense so far but I'll keep reading. FOS: Charloux

the fos seems too vanilla and opportunistic and then on same post made jump on char wagon when they saw the titus vote for some reason? if you think it was a scum slip then you would vote right at start what was about the titus vote significant there?

them they are convinced by case on norwee and jumps on next popular wagon

---- so kitty votes at this point:
[4] KittyTacky: catboi, Cephrir, fireisredsir, Datisi
----

This wagon was legit when created and I can see the real push on it for solving in general

I wont go further in kitty iso yet as I wanna read rest of game as a whole and not iso first.

I was a little afraid of jumping on so early in my read. In general I don't vote at the start of backreads unless I see a second scummy post. That is what happened.

I guess that's not fair

I thought Kitty's entrance was scummy but I thought it was a different flavor than what I'd just seen in Turing Test and didn't really know what to make of that

One of my points of paranoia about you is just that Kitty feels too easy and I am not getting the same confidence on that slot as you are at all. And I'm having trouble putting myself in your shoes and getting the same level of confidence on Kitty as you.

like my head says Kitty is scum but my heart says maybe no

Right. You only played with me as scum. Here's the thing, I have something of a (true) reputation of being LHF town. I mostly play Normals though so I guess that's why I'm being scumread more in this theme.

VOTE: Kitty
Norwee abandon ship

Opportunism. Scum.

[catboi]

And if my goal was to create an interaction with Marashu, why do I then move on without a response from Marashu? The theory doesn't even hold up to its own internal logic. I really don't believe this is something you actually believe is true. As it stands, what happened was kittytacky made some posts I thought were bad, so I moved my vote to him instead of Marashu. It's not very complicated. I vote hop a fair bit on Day 1 and the idea that I'm obligated to keep my vote on Marashu until he responds to me is nonsense.

i mean this was more or less my thought process for why your moving your vote off marashu didn't make sense if you were s/s with him (you likely wouldn't have an awkward pivot onto a partner if you didn't actually want to commit and get anything out of voting there) and you told me that was bad process but ok

no it's fine this is probably a big waste of energy like I thought it would be

what did you mean by this

do you still scumread dann

i mean big wall wars literaly never resolve anything and no one pays attention to them

i stillthink dann is scummy but i'm not as confident in it as i was last night

[PenguinPower]

no one pays attention to them

very true

[Charloux]

I started commenting on Kitty's post then i noticed my line of thought went like this:
He is scummy because he did x. But he is scummy if he does the opposite as well. Guess i'm too biased on him right now

[catboi]

the catboi/dann thing is interesting ig. it feels like they're both kinda puffing their chests up a lil bit, maybe just bc it's all very... cordial? it feels like there's a slight lack of. something. behind the posts, intensity or conviction maybe. some of it feels a bit like writing for the sake of writing rather than like, a true reflection of a passionate scumread of the heart

Could be theater

It has occurred to me that Alisae hasn't played in a full year and their approach this game doesn't really reflect that at all, which is pretty confusing to me. They're confident they can read Norwe better than anyone else, but Norwe has been playing an additional year of mafia while they haven't. It doesn't make sense to me, but I actually don't think it's scummy. Just weird.

What is the ideal of me that you have in ur head?
I don't really have anything else to go off of other than what I know.
I feel like what I see is clearly in line with what I know of town!Norwee. I remember Norwee as scum being pretty aggro but I don't know how that developed but I also know that however that did develop, that's probably not what I am dealing with here? Seems more likely he's just town that's the simpler conclusion to come to right now and I imagine Norwee will only get easier to read as time goes on so I am happy to leave it at that.

--

maybe ig, it just kinda feels like if it was theatre then it was clearly orchestrated and way planned in advance, since catboi had his "secret spicy scumread" for a while to build up to it, and it just kinda feels to me like they'd go at it a little more?

i don't really know what dann scum looks like tbh though

are you saying you think this looks like how dann does theatre? what's your read on the two of them

Why would they go at it more and waste their own posts when no one cares?
I'm not necessarily saying it is theater, I didn't read because it looked fucking obnoxious, and you know what, maybe that's obnoxiousness is intentional, maybe it's not, it's not easy to tell with that posting and asking me to find out I would rather bang my head against a wall while drooling
I remember liking Catboi and Dann seems fine but they're also good scum players so it's not like something like this can't be theater

I mean if you're not scumreadig us why would you bring up the possibility of it being theater?

[T3]

Catching up

[T3]

I’m gonna post my conclusions and a read list when I’m done

[Dannflor]

I tend to be a cordial person in general. I'd say I probably tend towards being less cordial with my scum buddies because I'm not worried about hurting their feelings

anyway, I just feel bad for the walls because I think there are much better ways to handle that situation and I feel like I've made that mistake before and should know better

This is town, doubt scum would latch on to a townie this hard.

so like does this apply to catboi too? why wouldn't scum be latching onto you hard?

[Dannflor]

I can't tell if mastina has actually read and caught up or not

if she hasn't then I don't really know how she seems to know people are shading her for being in catchup mode

[catboi]

I feel less like yeeting kittytacky after these most recent posts. They feel a little more substantial than his previous ones.

[NorwegianboyEE]

I can't tell if mastina has actually read and caught up or not

if she hasn't then I don't really know how she seems to know people are shading her for being in catchup mode

I think she could be scum for other reasons that has nothing to do with inactivity.

[Dannflor]

VOTE: marashu

[Dannflor]

what are those reasons

[catboi]

This, also is something tht is going to be hard to explain without getting into everything about his playstyle but in the simplest possible terms, he's involved and has actual thoughts about the game ad is trying to figure things out. By his own description his scum playstyle is "basically treading water". I realize he's consciously altering his playstyle this game because normally he never gives this many reads or is this proactive as either alignment but I lean toward believing it's real and town-motivated, because he's self-aware of how his own meta is perceived and is able to play into that as scum, and I think he'd be less likely to try a playstyle ateration as that alignment. There's also little things about who he's choosing to give reads on and the stuff he's saying about being paranoid of the people he likes solving with that rings very real to me.

this was about SS btw. I wanna know what posts gave you such impressions. can you be more specific about how you got there?

416 is actually probably more in terms of reads than I've ever seen from him as scum. The analysis in 473 feels very real for him as well. Stuff like 743 and 757, while entirely fakeable, shows him having a continuous stream of takes that he'd feel less obligation to make as scum, that's why it's a bit hard to point to a singular post from him because I think the overall body of work shows him continually trying to evaluate the game.

This is also

after

I posted my townread on him but he's been suspicious of Datisi in a way I feel is very genine and showing legitimate paranoia of Datisi's motivations.

[Dannflor]

I am more hesitant on town reading S_S for this posting. It is somewhat of a pattern with S_S to act like he's trying to change up his playstyle during his scum games, because it without fail gets him town read.

I still have flashbacks to this post from Baton Pass: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11321463

because who the fuck has ever seen S_S make a colored reads list wall before?? and I town read him for it

that being said, his effort here does seem more sustained than I've seen in his scum games previously. And I think it does follow from recent games where he's been mis-eliminated. so it's still probably net towny but I don't have super strong feelings about it yet

[catboi]

I should note that that's a game from 3 yaers ago - in all his more recent scum games I've seen (holiday dance, PYP) he's played significantly more to what people expect of him by not giving many reads and basically treading water. (of course he still played better than me in pyp IMO, have to give credit where deserved). Might be that he's just more confident playing to an expected 'meta' now in games. I still think when he has some part of the game he actually really cares about it shines through pretty clearly.

[Dannflor]

jesus baton pass was 3 years ago?

yeah that's fair, I've been largely absent this year so my meta might be outdated

[Titus]

VOTE: NorwegianboyEE

Haven't read. Just making wagons.

[NorwegianboyEE]

what are those reasons

I'd rather go into it after Mastina has made an catchup post and not before.

[T3]

By page 20 I’m strongly scumreading Datisi, Mistyx is scummy, Val is moderately scummy, Dann and Norwee are mildly scummy