In post 3191, mastina wrote: In post 3169, MathBlade wrote: In post 3168, mastina wrote:Oh so the scumclaim of a role was an actual scumclaim not a Troll, reaction test, or joke???
...WELL THEN.
VOTE: MMR
Can you explain here please?
I don’t see how you get here.
Well, it's both mechanics and play.
Play can be chalked up to mistake from ONE player, but from THREE players, ESPECIALLY mechanics-oriented players, it is so borderline unacceptable that it is genuinely an instant elimination.
Let's start with the Neapolitan half. A Neapolitan is at its strongest by targeting VTs, to generate hard-innocents. And since we have VTs in the game per the D1 flip, that means that MMR would know that they should try to get innocent results.
The D1 elimination proved that there are VTs, but you know what also happened just before the elimination?
...Not one, but TWO different players effectively hard-townslipped a claim which essentially hinted at being VTs.
Scarfmanship spelled this out the night I claimed, that T-Bone and Enchant believing that their role PMs gave no hint to alignment basically hard-spewed them as VTs.
A Neapolitan, with not one but TWO players that essentially accidentally hardclaimed VT, chose to investigate NEITHER if them???
I can get some random player making that mistake.
But Ircher is, infamously, a mechanics-oriented player. Do you think Ircher with a Neapolitan sees two players who basically hardclaimed VT and decides to investigate neither of them?
RH9 from my understanding is ALSO mechanics-oriented. I've never actually played with him to verify, but seeing how he's literally THE most prolific user in mafia discussion, discussing the mechanics of roles, I'm pretty damn certain that he is a mechanics-oriented player, and I don’t buy him making the Mistake, either.
Roden is the only one who could, but even TODEN is no slouch mechanically.
And you want to tell me that not one, not two, but THREE different holders of the role which is mechanics oriented made a night action choice that is woefully suboptimal?
It's beyond improbable.
It's not like Neapolitan is a gimmicky role. It's one of the most common Normal Game roles in existence. So all three of them should know the basic theory of the value of a hard-innocent.
Beyond that? PPF was town enough to be a nightkill option--you don’t try to target players who could be the nightkill, you specifically try to target those who will not be. This doesn’t contradict the above, either since neither T-Bone nor Enchant were likely nightkills ESPECIALLY given being vanilla. Even if they thought ONE VT would be nightkilled, they would know at least one would live--and let's be real, mo scum kills Enchant ever. So they could safely target Enchant.
PPF was more town than scum yesterday.
So being so, which alignment has more reason to effectively rolecop them? (Neapolitan is a hybrid between Cop and Rolecop.)
It ain't town.
Scum had more reasons to rolecop PPF than town did.
AND INE MORE THING--MathBlade was a PR claim, but why not target Dingle Dangle Scarecrow? MY being unable to target either makes sense (it'd potentially hard-clear them), but MMR's role has no such justification--why not check DDS???
This all is play. You can attempt to write it off as a display of absolute sheer incompetence if you'd like, a collective brain shutdown from all three players who should know better. (Roden literally got mislimmed in part thanks to targeting a PPF like player N1. So to make the same sort of mistake twice is even less likely.)
But then we get into the actual role part.
Namely, how the two halves are highly redundant.
ANY result that is successful is an automatic innocent, thanks to Loyal.
Neapolitan is a role which generates innocents in of itself, by targeting VTs.
By stacking the two, it becomes effectively a more powerful cop, NOT ONLY learning if someone is town, BUT ALSO if they're a VT or a PR.
If it were just Neapolitan I'd believe it.
If it were just Loyal with a confirming result of literally any sort, I would believe it. (Checker, Motion Detector, etc. Literally any role which gets feedback at the end of a night, which is not already innately one of the strongest investigative roles in the game the way Neapolitan is.)
Beyond all that?
I don’t believe that the town has a Loyal Neapolitan ON TOP OF the revealing mechanic shown at the end of D1 ON TOP OF my role, which theirs is basically a stronger version of.
My role just checks for attunement, which is a possible indicator of alignment and potentially reveals role or VTs;
Theirs gets outright confirmation of alignment AND role. They're literally claiming a stronger version of my role, which was even able to act a night sooner than me! (BTW free piece of NRG advice: the NRG tends to balance odd/even night roles by putting the weaker one FIRST, not second. Not always, but as a way to keep the power down.)
And then there are two other reasons for why I think that's a mechical scumclaim, but I'll finish with a final non-mechanics one:
I don’t buy MMR being blocked by scum;
I don’t buy PPF being an unclaimed ascetic;
MMR were in the PoE already for scum;
PPF are town enough to be basically conftown.
If they're trying to force a noncommittal guilty where after PPF flip town they go "Oh I guess we were roleblocked", well, I call bullshit. So, because PPF is never scum here, if there WAS a 1v1, by default, MMR would be the scum within.
And to reiterate, I have two extra mechanics reasons for doubting the claim beyond what I've shared.
Maybe a play reason or two, too.
