Cosmos Mafia (Dawn 1)

[mastina]

If the options are {MMR, PPF, mastina} for an elimination, I'm

never

letting PPF go through (I literally would rather let myself die), and I am not interested in letting myself die--which by default, leaves MMR as the only option.

People want to resolve in that pool today. They'll insist that this isn't going to go away any time soon, that the MMR vs mastina + PPF will still be here tomorrow, unresolved. If those people can't be swayed, then I'm going to vote MMR because PPF is town and I am town so there's only one scum possible even though it is also possible to all be town.

But my preference now would be the scum fanning the flames of this, in the likes of {unwnd, furtiveglance, Firebringer}.

The advocates for resolving it today will say it won't go away tomorrow. That we'll just start it up tomorrow again--but given that was the same logic used to try and push my mislim through yesterday, I'm disinclined to believe that logic and actually as I was writing this out I think I just talked my way into "fuck this" in regards to the people insisting on resolving this today because fuck that logic, it literally was what almost got me mislimmed yesterday so no, fuck that, we can afford to leave it unresolved.
VOTE: unwnd

This is the most important parts btw.

Fuck the logic of "this will still be around tomorrow if we don't resolve it today". The people pushing for a mastina elimination D1 were using

that exact logic

to try and push my mislim through. No, seriously. I can quote their posts on it if you don't believe me, but you should, because you were there to see it happen live and if your memory is in any way not that of a goldfish, you know I'm right in that being true. People insisted that a mastina elimination would give a lot of info and if it wasn't resolved D1, we'd restart the dance D2, and that therefore, the best option was to eliminate me.

Today people are saying eliminating in {MMR, PPF, mastina} will give a lot of info and if it's not resolved today, we'll restart the dance tomorrow, and therefore, the best option is to eliminate in that pool today.

I ain't letting the logic that nearly got me mislimmed yesterday, dictate what has an

at minimum

2/3rds chance of causing a mislim today.

Yes, I realize I said there's no way MMR and I are both Astrologers with the differences in our roles.
Yes, I realize that MMR getting No Result on PPF is seen as a guilty.

But PPF is town and I am town and MMR, while possible scum, has reasons to potentially be town, too.

I'm not interested in having three back to back to back townflips and the town try to scramble to figure out wtf happened and try and find the scum, but be down all the town nightkilled in that time in addition to two of the strongest most active town players giving scumhunting and mechanical feedback who could help the town clarify if they were alive.

Unironically, I think the best option actually IS to vote outside the group of {MMR, PPF, mastina}.
Yes, it will continue to be unresolved, but given time in the event it actually IS all three as town, then we can have that shown with time. Resolution isn't required to come from an elimination today. It can come on any day phase. As long as the town has the majority on the day after the current one, we have the luxury of not resolving on the current day. (Which is to say, we can't wait until lylo to resolve, but we can wait until literally the day before lylo to resolve.)

The conflict will remain, but we can sort the conflict more passively and indirectly.

Pagetopping this.

[mastina]

Fed up of mastina's spamming.

Shouldn't have pushed me when I'm town because I have a long-established history of going ballistic when under pressure as town.

(And, notably, have no experience of going ballistic as scum.)

I guarantee you.
I promise you.

If the elimination pool was players I didn't care about?

I would be fairly muted.

There's genuinely only three players I would be this vocal about: {mastina, PPF, Yume}.
If the elimination pool did not have any of those three, I would be a lot more quiet because as it turns out, I do not approve of my strongest townreads being voted out!

No fucking shit I'm gonna spam when the players being voted are the two I am most certain are town in the game.
The reasons for PPF to be town are solid.
The reasons for PPF to be scum are basically all absolute shit.

The reasons for me to be scum are absolute shit.

And I am not going to allow players, not town but ESPECIALLY not scum, to get away with shit pushes.

[MegAzumarill]

VC 2.0.6



Past Present Future (4) Scarfmanship, MMR, Toogeloo, Dingle Dangle Scarecrow [E-4]
MMR (4) Radical Rat, Yume, Past Present Future, Mathblade [E-4]

Mastina (3) Unwnd, Furtiveglance, firebringer

Unwnd (1) Mastina

Not Voting (3) Ydrasse, Enchant, T-bone ,

Deadline: (expired on 2022-11-14 21:51:23)
With 15 alive it takes 8 to eliminate.

[mastina]

And as much as I hate Wisdom, I am gonna have to use Wisdom logic. You think multiple players telling you she is town are all wrong?

This, but also, PPF for the same reason.

Literally anyone who has played with Nancy before should know she is town here.

They can't all be wrong.

None of you are cooperating.

That's because they're basically all scum, plus MathBlade.

And the scum are hiding behind MathBlade because when he is wrong he gives them a nice shield.

(I know that someone will try and say the same about me, but the difference is, I am not wrong on PPF being town and I know myself to be town, whereas MathBlade is wrong in either of us being scum, soooooooooooooo. Scum aren't hiding behind me as a shield. They ARE hiding behind MathBlade.)

[mastina]

Also, to those who scumread mastina, show me one game in the past five years where she spammed in the exact manner she does in this game, okay?

Already did.
You ignored it. Don’t have time to grab it again.

You most definitely did not, because none exist.

You linked to a scumgame of mine, that's true!
And then you were told--not ignored, TOLD--why your link showed you weren't making a point in good faith.

And then it was YOU, not Yume, YOU who ignored that. YOU were the one who ignored why the game you linked was not in fact comparable. It was already covered, and YOU were the one who didn't engage with that. Don't blame Yume for what is your shortcoming.

[Radical Rat]

I think having an unresolved guilty result and arguing that needs to be resolved today is a bit different than the people arguing that you (mastina) needed to be resolved yesterday because you were loud and annoying.

I have no intention of voting for anyone other than MMR/PPF today, preference MMR reasons already stated, but eliminating within the bounds of the claim is going to give us mechanical insight and associatives for both scumteams, as well as the ability to analyze how people behaved around the claim(s), and basically gives us a very large hole with which to finally tear this game open. Eliminating outside potentially outs even more PRs than we already have, and tells us very little about anything else.

I know I can't outspam people enough to force my way, and frankly I don't want to try because that's not fun for anyone, but I do want to make it 100% clear that I believe this NEEDS to happen, and the longer we put it off the worse it's gonna get.

I do NOT want a repeat of yesterday where we all just settle on whoever we feel the least about because no one can agree on shit. Get over whatever your (general you) issue with mastina, or unwnd, or MathBlade, or whoever else is FOR NOW, and settle the guilty claim. Then we can go from there.

[mastina]

Astrologer likely exists or a role like it.

at some point im going to have to sit down and actually figure out these games mechanics. But it won't be this game day. Hopefully i don't have to think about this till post game.

By the way, y'all should be ashamed of not calling Firebringer out for transparently having a scum iso.

No, seriously.

This is Firebringer's iso this game.

Can you point me to a single scumhunting/good thought within?

Firebringer is, blatantly, getting away with doing nothing, because y'all are letting him get away with it.

[Radical Rat]

I never thought I'd see a game where "we should do something about a claimed guilty" was a controversial take...

[mastina]

eliminating within the bounds of the claim is going to give us mechanical insight and associatives for both scumteams, as well as the ability to analyze how people behaved around the claim(s), and basically gives us a very large hole with which to finally tear this game open.

Okay, and if all of MMR/PPF/me are town, can you share what groundbreaking mechanical insight we will have? ('Cause to me, it will say "there was a failed result that led to a shitshow where we eliminated two+ PRs and the two strongest town players in the game", which doesn't really say much beyond what we already know today.)

Can you share what insights and associatives for both scumteams will be revealed?

You'll have the analysis around the claims, but all that will tell you is that the long-since-nightkilled players like Yume were town, which--SHOCKER--you already would know.

There's things to be gained from a scumflip, sure.

There's no things to be gained from a townflip.

MMR is still possible scum and I will vote there if I have to--but I'm more interested now in eliminating surefire scum and the likes of {Firebringer, unwnd, furtiveglance} who are blatantly coasting by on the MMR/PPF/mastina situation are surefire scum blatantly coasting by because they can get away with it because you are letting them because you are hard-tunneled on resolving something with an elimination that might involve three town players (and is guaranteed to have at least two).

[Radical Rat]

While I don't expect this to sway you since you've devoted yourself so strongly to a PPF townread based on nothing, a Town flip on MMR DOES point very strongly to PPF being guilty, and vice versa. In which case they'd probably either be dayvigged by Math or nightkilled by scum, depending on which factions are involved, and if they also somehow flip Town?

Well, then I'll admit I was wrong, and offer a sincere apology for flipping a bunch of Town, but also we still gain mechanical information from the flips, that we seemingly can't get otherwise due to MMR's addiction to making shit up for "reaction tests" and at least one scumteam having a janitor.

In particular, I'm curious about this Loyal claim, because it doesn't match with your claim in either form or function, and if it's real it casts serious doubt on your claim, and vice versa.

[mastina]

I never thought I'd see a game where "we should do something about a claimed guilty" was a controversial take...

That's the thing.
It's not.

It's the blind consensus take.

It is the thoughtless take.

You pushing it isn't controversial.

You aren't pushing a minority opinion. You are pushing a majority opinion. The majority disagrees on which name to vote to resolve, but does not disagree on the principle of resolving it today, agreeing with the premise.

It's me who has the more controversial take, of leaving the three names alone--but that's because mine is actually done with giving thought to the situation at hand and reading by play, not by claim.

Has everyone pushing to resolve forgotten a holy golden rule?

Play > Role.

PPF are 100% town here by play, period.
I am town by play.
MMR are possible town by play.

The role is not a hard-guilty. So while it is a soft-guilty, it is not a "100% PPF must be scum".

Given the guilty is not 100%, you should still be using play to analyze if you feel the guilty is a guilty.

Since PPF is town by play, the guilty is not a guilty.

So the options are MMR town or MMR scum--and to resolve

that

, you need to look at...you guessed it! Play.

By play, MMR could be scum, admittedly--so if I were to vote to resolve the role, it would be on MMR.

But,

A non-100% guilty should still involve players reading situation by play to determine the alignment of players.

PPF is town;
I am town;
MMR is possible town;

If the three are all town, then what does that mean we should do?
Blindly eliminate by role in spite of it not being definitive?

OR, analyze by play, and see if there are scum hiding behind the role discussion and blatantly getting away with being scum doing fuckall of anything?

Turning a brain on to focus on thinking about play is perhaps a controversial stance but it is mine and it is why I prefer an elimination on {unwnd, Firebringer, furtiveglance} right now.

[mastina]

While I don't expect this to sway you since you've devoted yourself so strongly to a PPF townread based on nothing

Fuck that narrative.

I've explained my PPF townread and don't you fucking pretend that's based on nothing.

That's based on fucking play.

Yaknow.

The thing we use outside of roles to read players???

PPF is town by play here 200%.

Don't fucking pretend my read is hot air there.

[mastina]

I don’t think spending 3 hours on a questionnaire is ignoring.

It is when literally half a dozen players pointed out your answers to the questionnaire were disingenuous as fuck, pointed this out, and you have fucking repeatedly ignored them having said as much.

Every time, this discussion keeps repeating:
"point to where mastina has done this as scum"
"I did, when I did the questionnaire, you're ignoring that"
"No, we answered you and pointed out why your points were wrong/flawed/disingenuous/etc., and then you didn't engage"
*silence*

You. are. not. engaging. in. the. people. telling. you. that. you. were. wrong.

They have, repeatedly, pointed out why you were wrong.
They have, repeatedly, explained why you were wrong.
And then instead of engaging them and analyzing if maybe, just maybe, you were wrong--you just say "well I disagree", move on, and say you did it already.

[Radical Rat]

I had another response typed, but fine we'll address that.

Tell me WHY PPF is Town by play, because so far all I've seen you say is that Nancy is only "like this" as Town. Define "like this," and explain why she can't do whatever it is as scum.

[Yume]

I had another response typed, but fine we'll address that.

Tell me WHY PPF is Town by play, because so far all I've seen you say is that Nancy is only "like this" as Town. Define "like this," and explain why she can't do whatever it is as scum.

She has. In multiple posts. You and everyone else would know this if you actually read her posts. So I don't get why are you repeatedly asking her questions that you could find the answers to yourselves BY ACTUALLY READING HER POSTS.

[mastina]

Tell me WHY PPF is Town by play, because so far all I've seen you say is that Nancy is only "like this" as Town. Define "like this," and explain why she can't do whatever it is as scum.

I have!

I can see all town except PPF.
Can you elaborate on that?

Nancy has a certain ~energy~ as town, and is particularly passionate and emotional as town. She is fairly active and engages a ton. It's hard to really describe, but the difference between her scumplay and dayplay is night and day. If you can see Yume as town from her being in her day compared to her scum/night, then you should be able to see Nancy as town from her being in her day.

And Titus is also in her town meta. The things she is focusing on, her areas of engagement, the way she is talking to others, the reads she has, all of it is what I would expect from a town Titus, in being good but not perfect. She's also not visibly defending scum, in a game that we know scum have extra reason to defend scum in. Who could Titus be scum with? She can't be scum with anyone, really, which makes her town.

they are town through and through.

But, basically: a town Nancy is incredibly active (a scum Nancy, far less so), incredibly emotional (a scum Nancy, far less so), incredibly erratic (a scum Nancy, far less so), all over the place, not strategic, not focused, is basically ADHD manifested both the attention deficit part and also randomly hyperfocusing on things and ignoring things to focus on one specific thing which she locks onto. She has an energy. She knows she is town and this affects her worldview. She is extra prone to OMGUS behaviors, because with her knowing she is town, she has a FIRE on those scumreading her because in her eyes, there's no way that player could be genuinely scumreading her because clearly if they were town they wouldn't be scumreading her.

And THAT is the Nancy we have

this

game.

Titus is a harder read to explain but it is also meta and explaining without meta is more difficult.

There's also the combined meta of them specifically in a hydra. Titus has a hydra town/scum meta, so does Nancy; they're both in their town hydra meta.

Nancy is not a good scum player. Nancy's scumplay and townplay are night and day different. Nancy's scumplay has virtually zero resemblance to her townplay, and thus there are no superficial similarities.
Nancy's scumplay is bad enough that there's no reason to assume she's suddenly having the game of her life as scum, where suddenly inexplicably she's somehow leveled up her scumgame to be ten times better.

And even if Nancy were a good enough player to keep up the non-superficial similarities to her towngame temporarily--the length she has done so THIS game makes it genuinely impossible for her to be scum, here. If Nancy's townness was temporary, then she could be scum plausibly. But Nancy has only been getting stronger and stronger with time, getting more and more in her towngame. If she were scum, her scumgame would come out more and more and she'd stray further and further from her towngame.

But it's literally the opposite. She's getting more and more into her towngame and further and further from her scumgame.

Nancy is genuinely clear enough to be an Innocent Child in her own right.

So much of PPF's iso this day is the same things repeated again and again,all of which are entirely self centered and do not read other players.
- mastina is town
- i would never kill prof
- people who oppose me are scum
- mathblade, please stop reminding people that there is a guilty on me

- i have a confirmable role as early as tomorrow*

*terms and conditions may apply

Compare this to how Titus apparently is going to make a reads list in the future, but nancy won't even post an inkling of information, because, uhhh, when nancy makes readslists nancy gets shit on? Why is getting shit on a concern to you when you are at death's door + you are already getting shit on? Why won't nancy even take the first step to making reads on other players when I asked who was scum on wagon? Why is nancy concerned about getting shit on if they have a role that is confirmable as early as tomorrow**?

** professional driver on closed course, do not attempt

Bunny knew they were dying soon and did their best to give all their information away, even though they had next to nothing. PPF is one of the top posters in the game and refuses to give anything away. I think the answer is that they know they are dying soon and don't want to give any information away. They will instead quote this post and make a snarky remark.

Funny thing about this.

You know what that is?

It's that not all players are the same.

There's no cookie cutter universal playbook.

What Bunnyonce did is reflective of Greeting and Aisa as players. That matches what you are saying you feel a town player should do.

But not all town players fit that mold.

And Nancy in particular does not. (As a general rule of thumb, players whose posting style is more reactive overall typically are the ones furthest from the "expected mold", because being reactive, their reactions mean they are reacting in ways that do not match the mindset assumed to be default, because the assumed default mindset is that town would be proactive, in spite of that not being universally true. Nancy is a perfect example of that.)

The things you mention are cookie cutter scumtells.
They are not Nancy scumtells.
In fact, quite the opposite!
They are some of the strongest possible towntells for Nancy to display.

If you really don't care which of the two you want to eliminate, why are you still on PPF and equaling the wagons, rather than MMR to tip the wagons in one direction?

'cause I think PPF is solar and solar acts tonight, now because interacting with you and PPF is the pinnacle of unproductive content,

PPF is not the pinnacle of unproductive content and saying they are is disingenuous as fuck.

Nancy is giving reads almost every post.

Those reads are constantly shifting.

Those reads are constantly changing.

But everyone voting Nancy for not giving reads is literally lying their asses off when they say she isn't giving them.

She has changed her vote how many times this day phase? Has to have been at least eight times.

Every time she changes her vote that post is accompanied with reasons why she feels her current vote is worth voting.

That ain't unproductive content. That is content that gives tangible things to interact with and engage with and leave a legacy with.

It's not organized all into one place.

But it ain't absent, either.

idgaf about meta, i haven't played on this site in something like 6 years.

And I have explained why PPF is town without using meta:

Nancy is literally the easiest player to read onsite. Genuinely, literally, the easiest.

Any player who has ever played with her before and doesn't insist meta is trash,
Should be townreading her--a lack thereof from any meta-user is genuinely a scumclaim.

It's hard for me to describe why she's town without using meta because I know the meta is right.

But, basically: a town Nancy is incredibly active (a scum Nancy, far less so), incredibly emotional (a scum Nancy, far less so), incredibly erratic (a scum Nancy, far less so), all over the place, not strategic, not focused, is basically ADHD manifested both the attention deficit part and also randomly hyperfocusing on things and ignoring things to focus on one specific thing which she locks onto. She has an energy. She knows she is town and this affects her worldview. She is extra prone to OMGUS behaviors, because with her knowing she is town, she has a FIRE on those scumreading her because in her eyes, there's no way that player could be genuinely scumreading her because clearly if they were town they wouldn't be scumreading her.

And THAT is the Nancy we have

this

game.

There's also the combined meta of them specifically in a hydra. Titus has a hydra town/scum meta, so does Nancy; they're both in their town hydra meta.

Of course there's pushback to them being scum--because they're self-evidently not.

Nancy has shown incredible thought progression and engagement in the game in a way that scum are incredibly unlikely to have.
Nancy has shown emotion that is incredibly unlikely to come from scum that know they are scum.
Nancy has shown a perspective of believing herself to be town and knowing it to be so obvious that any suspecting her are more likely to be scum.

While those are all augmented by meta, they are also generically town traits. Nancy has shown constant evolving thoughts, and given countless contributions, having given thoughts on basically every player in the game. She has never once been in anti-spew mode. She has never once avoided explaining her stance when directly posting about the player she holds that stance on. When engaging with a scumread she gives the reasons for the scumreads.

Nancy is very very very heavily neurodivergent.
Nancy, with how neurodivergent she is, does not point in ways that are considered typical or fit a mold. She does not play by the standard set of play.

However, she is not unreadable even without meta.

You can look at Nancy's progression in thoughts across the entire game to see an organic evolution in her thoughts, changing fluidly off of new posts. I realize Past Present Future's iso is ludicrously long--so nobody actually will do that. But if anyone were to actually do it, they'd see exactly what I mean with that. The PPF iso is filled with constantly changing thoughts that demonstrate an evolution of perspective.

Their stances have never been static.

Their stances have been shifting.

They have given thoughts on every slot at various points, and those thoughts have gone through entire spectrums of reads. Nancy in particular has made strong reads/stances known.

In spite of being a leading wagon today with a high chance of going through, Nancy is not interested in being survivalistic by voteparking MMR. She has turned to all of her scumreads and voted them and at one point even voted MathBlade in protest to his stubborn wrongness.

She has shown constant indignation, she has shown constant belief in herself that she is town. Her very worldview is that she is town and players should know she is town--that's how she thinks when she is town. And by having this viewpoint, when players do not match her viewpoint, she sees it as suspect. To her because she is obviously town here, players thinking she could be scum are automatically more likely to be scum.

"Can't she fake that as scum?"

Well, that's where meta comes in, the thing you're constantly ignoring me about being true on.
No, she can't. Her scumplay is flat in comparison, because while she can OMGUS as scum, she can't muster up the same level of conviction, especially not the flipping-on-a-dime focus.
The very way she OMGUSes is different based on alignment.

As scum, she OMGUSes to protect herself. Her OMGUS is designed to be survivalistic, to try and fight out of being in the hole she is in.

As town, she OMGUSes because of absolute confidence that she is town and looks town. Her OMGUS is her scumhunting, because she fully believes that only scum will see her as scum.

How much more do you want me to explain? Do you want me to pull up examples of this?
I already did that, too!
I've shown her scumgame and how flat it is in comparison.

I. have. explained. why. Nancy. is. town. By every metric.
I've explained the meta.
I've explained the read without relying on meta.
I've shown why it is town in this game specifically, as well as town in general for her.

I'm not wrong on Past Present Future being town, here.
It's 90% Nancy 10% Titus, but PPF is town by every metric here.

[unwnd]

Her posts are tangential and don't have any structure to them

I believe this is intentional but her defenders keep telling uhhh no that's her town meta

I don't want to believe this obstructive way of engaging with the thread is in any form town

[unwnd]

Mastina will write more overwrought babble to accentuates how much she cares but how little she actually does

Yawn

[mastina]

I had another response typed, but fine we'll address that.

Tell me WHY PPF is Town by play, because so far all I've seen you say is that Nancy is only "like this" as Town. Define "like this," and explain why she can't do whatever it is as scum.

She has. In multiple posts. You and everyone else would know this if you actually read her posts. So I don't get why are you repeatedly asking her questions that you could find the answers to yourselves BY ACTUALLY READING HER POSTS.

<3

Yume is right.

I get that my iso is ludicrously long.

I get that my posts are ludicrously long.

But you guys are going to have your minds blown by a neat trick that can make it much easier to find these things.

It's a little thing called "control-F".

You'll miss some content from it--I'm pretty sure I've defended PPF in some places that my own control-F search of my iso didn't bring up. (Yes I need control-F for my own iso, it's long.)

But even basic control-F searches help narrow it down.

I literally took less than five minutes to compile 4090 by just searching my iso for "Nancy". Not every post had useful info from it since a lot was just 'Nancy is town', but it took less than two minutes for me to find

explanations

for 'Nancy is town'.

[Yume]

Her posts are tangential and don't have any structure to them

I believe this is intentional but her defenders keep telling uhhh no that's her town meta

I don't want to believe this obstructive way of engaging with the thread is in any form town

Because it is! But you're just scum anyway. And before you say I am sheeping mastina, I scumread you before she did.

[Yume]

I need to distance before this thread gives me apoplexy...

[mastina]

Her posts are tangential and don't have any structure to them
I believe this is intentional but her defenders keep telling uhhh no that's her town meta
I don't want to believe this obstructive way of engaging with the thread is in any form town

This is disingenuous as fuck and genuinely the only reason I'm not reporting unwnd for discrimination against neurodivergencies (he said literally this exact sort of bullshit in response to me being verbose) is because I believe it comes from scum being deliberately disingenuous rather than from town being harmfully ignorant. (And yes, if unwnd is in fact town I am reporting 4091 and 2703 as being the abusive-violates-site-rules ableist posts they are.

Because unwnd is in fact being ableist with saying that neurodivergencies are indicative of the user being scum.
If he is scum he has an excuse; being that disingenuous is playing to his wincon by trying to discredit town players.

If he is town he has no fucking excuse.

[unwnd]

This is the top postcount when I replaced in



Here it is now



It's just the same people talking to another

[unwnd]

Her posts are tangential and don't have any structure to them
I believe this is intentional but her defenders keep telling uhhh no that's her town meta
I don't want to believe this obstructive way of engaging with the thread is in any form town

This is disingenuous as fuck and genuinely the only reason I'm not reporting unwnd for discrimination against neurodivergencies (he said literally this exact sort of bullshit in response to me being verbose) is because I believe it comes from scum being deliberately disingenuous rather than from town being harmfully ignorant. (And yes, if unwnd is in fact town I am reporting 4091 and 2703 as being the abusive-violates-site-rules ableist posts they are.

Because unwnd is in fact being ableist with saying that neurodivergencies are indicative of the user being scum.
If he is scum he has an excuse; being that disingenuous is playing to his wincon by trying to discredit town players.

If he is town he has no fucking excuse.

You're playing a game and I'm reading you based on what you input on the game

This has no barring on your individuality

I don't appreciate being accused in this way,

[Yume]

SHUT UP!!!