Mini 692: Boost Mafia (Game Over!)

[Elmo]

Day 1, Vote Count #15 - Lynching

Huntress (3) <- Mana_Ku, sthar8, Electra
Incognito (3) <- Guardian, Jahudo, Raging Rabbit
iLord <- eldarad
Mana_Ku <- TDC
Raging Rabbit <- iLord
Guardian <- Incognito

Not voting: RandomGem, Huntress.

Boost Count

Electra (6) <- eldarad, Raging Rabbit, TDC, Jahudo, RandomGem, Incognito
Guardian (3) <- iLord, Mana_Ku, Raging Rabbit
TDC (2) <- Incognito, sthar8
sthar8 (2) <- Guardian, iLord
Raging Rabbit (2) <- Jahudo, Mana_Ku
eldarad <- TDC
Jahudo <- eldarad
iLord <- Guardian

With 12 alive, it's 7 to lynch/boost. Mana_ku and Electra have been prodded. The

deadline

is Thursday, 4th December 06:00 UTC, which is 9 days, 7 hours, and 44 minutes from this post.

[iLord]

Okay, all caught up.

Fancy half-formatted post coming up soon.

[iLord]

Okay, updated notes, picked up after my first reread point:

------------------------------

sthar8:

Suspects Crazy for double standards? Notes Crazy’s lack on concern for scum boosting. Suspects Crazy, RR, and me. Suspects Crazy over me. RR suspicion is dropped. Prods Electra, TDC, and skillit. Prods Mana_Ku and FL. Sees me/him link. Boosts TDC. Unsure of Incognito. Suspects Huntress/Crazy, me and RR. Good analysis on sthar8. Prods MK.

Electra:

Says that she is unable to find flaws in several player defenses. Says she thinks the early Incognito/springlullaby exchange is too intense. Notes that Incognito’s reaction to attack is unnatural, and starts to suspect Incognito. Suspects Crazy for “textbook” scuminess”. The too intense, not able to find flaws, and “textbook” scumtells all read newb. Votes Crazy for “textbook” tells, and for weird responses. Still feels Incognito/SL in overview is null tell. Sees attacking people for answering for other people as scummy. Again, examples of reading newb. Continues to suspect Crazy and explains her opinion. Continues to suspect Electra. FOS’s for quickboosts. Suspects Guardian and iLord.

Guardian (springlullaby):

Blows up against Incognito. Anger seems very genuine. Unvotes after Incognito takes offense. Regains composure. Makes up with Incognito. Restructures case, claiming no perfect case. Progression reads very town. Suspects skillit due to relations with Incognito.
Says sthar8 and me are linked. Says eldarad and Incognito are linked. Thinks Incognito is the most supcious. Cautious of Electra. Thinks I’m protown. Boosts sthar8 and me. Gut against Jahudo and skillit. Not much thoughts on Crazy. Weak argument on timing of Incognito’s post. Concedes fallacy of his boosts. Weak attack on Incognito for not wanting to argue. Electra-Mana_Ku/skillit-TDC-Crazy-eldarad-FL = Null, RR-Me = Leaning Town, Incognito = Scum, sthar8 = Town, Jahudo = Leaning Scum. Overall, continuing SL’s view is not scummy. After explaining the Incognito voting him for replacing in, I sort of see it, but it’s really stretching. I also understand his “dismissive’ point about Incognito, but I need to investigate further before I can deem that it’s not a way that Incognito defends himself regardless of alignment which would fit what I’ve seen of his posting style, or because he genuinely feels that the SL attack is scummy, which I find unlikely. Weak attack on TDC. Lots of noise with Incognito.

TDC:

Leaning scum on SL/Guardian after meta and Guardian replacing in. Suspicious of Guardian continuing SL’s work. Gets into discussion with Guardian that’s a lot of noise – not a lot of scum or town tells.

Huntress (Crazy):

Comment about how he reads Electra as town because of her claim read town. Acknowledges that it is only a read, which is good. Disagrees with RR’s attack. Reading Incognito as protown. Reads sthar8 as town. Catch-up post was good.
Suspicious of Electra, me, eldarad, sthar8, SL/Guardian.

RandomGem (fuzzylightning):

Claims unposted analysis. Scummy.

Mana_Ku (skillit):

Nothing.
Crazy/Huntress-Electra = Null, Eldarad-Incognito-RR-Guardian = Town, FL-Me-Jahudo = Scummy. Boosts RR and Guardian.

RagingRabbit:

Explains that he is voting on the reaction. Prods skillit. Unvotes sthar8 for massclaim speculation and his recent comment about MC. Genuine reanalysis. Doesn’t read SL as scum. Boosts TDC. Notes Incognito’s unnatural gradual ascension from town to scum on SL. Points out contradiction in Incognito. Thinks SL is town. Boosts Guardian. Weird time to vote for Incognito. Me-Incognito = Scum, Jahudo-Crazy/Huntress-Skillit/MK = Leaning Scum, Guardian-Electra-Eldarad-TDC = Town.

eldarad:

Says he believes a person on skillit wagon is scum, and then unvotes for Crazy. Retracts gut read of TDC. Starts attacking Crazy. Thinks SL’s case is weak, and supports Incognito. Thinks SL aggression is fake. Don’t like this post. Proposes link between SL and Crazy. Thinks Sl aggression might be uncharacteristic. Boosts Jahudo for Electra inactive point? Can’t get firm reads yet. Notes my late Electra agreement. Votes me for that and pushing Incognito from sidelines. Comments that he doesn’t like his possible connection called upon, which is minorly townie. Seeing Incognito as slightly town. Very scummy comment in response to MK in Post 389.

Incognito:

Attacks my view of fuzzylightning – doesn’t understand the motive/magnitude relationship. Continues to push suspicions of springlullaby because he can’t see why SL would attack him – thinks attack is contrived. Refuses to answer SL’s points because wants to avoid more flaming. Thinks my reads are contrived as well. Claims different treatment of RR and SL. Weak attack on the rigidness of my list. Doesn’t think Crazy is scum. Prods Electra, fuzzylightning, and skillit. Joins my wagon, stating eldarad’s points and prior suspicions. Does not understand and does not think anger is genuine. Votes Guardian/SL for suspicions on using replacement as a scum tactic. Cautious of his claim that SL was preemptively OMGUSing – doesn’t seem like a very good point. Boosts TDC. Attacks Guardian’s boosts. Claims Meta on Eldarad reads hugely pro-town. Explains focus on attackers. Weak attack on Guardian for “dirty” tells. Interesting, but weak time attack on Guardian (Not indicative of scum). Weak attack on sthar8. Weak accusation of SL using “too townie.” Defends well on contradiction. Weak defense to gradual point.

Jahudo:

Not liking his posts right after mine – making an excuse for picking out random arguments, rather than defending that he didn’t pick out random arguments. Prods Electra and skillit. Reads. Electra-Me = Town, eldarad-Incognito-SL = GutTown, skillit-TDC-sthar8-FL = Neutral, RR-crazy = Slightly Scum. No reasoning for non-gut reads. Does not think Crazy is scum. Doesn’t argue the lack of reasoning for his boost from Eldarad. Says Crazy and skillit are looking worse because of absence. Prods FL. Fence-sits on SL issue. Think RR is more town. FOS’s me for weak conclusions. Doesn’t think SL request for replacement was unjustified. Confused with SL. Boosts RR because of open-mindedness. Scummy. Votes Incognito, for a very weak point out of Guardians. Changed opinion on Incognito’s relation to the “8 out of 10” point. Weak explanation to it. Very weak explanation. Reading heavily of scrambling to back his proposed view – drops 8/10 example for other stronger ones. Prods RG/FL. Reaching in Incognito case. Prods MK.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Questions:

@eldarad: Why did you boost Jahudo in Post 234?

@Incognito: If SL started off attacking you with weak points, what makes you think that she would drop those points as town after you explained that they were weak?

@TDC: In Post 386, why is a town-town relationship between SL/Guardian and Incognito unlikely because the conversation was intense?

@Incognito: In Post 426, the quotes from R-100 by SL, do you not see a difference between those and those in this game? I really don’t think that SL is a good enough actor to blow up

and

still call herself town. I can understand her anger at being suspected, but people who explode under pressure usually lash out rather than say that they are town, like how SL did that game.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

@RR:

What are you hoping to gain by arguing this?

More information on how you say you scumhunt – and how you have scumhunted.
Which category of scumtells do my actions fall under?

What I'm saying is that you dropped that point because it wasn't convincing anyone - even those who completely disagree guilt can be a scumtell don't think it's very scummy for me to think otherwise - and then attacked me for distracting from it by means you can't even point to.

The point was dropped unintentionally, but now I’m going to drop it because it really is not convincing anyone, which is what a case must do to be successful.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TOWN

. sthar8

. Electra

. Guardian (springlullaby)

. TDC

. Huntress (Crazy)

. RandomGem (fuzzylightning)

. Mana_Ku (skillit)

. RagingRabbit

. eldarad

. Incognito

. Jahudo

SCUM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, accordingly,

Unboost Guardian, Boost Electra
Unvote, Vote Jahudo

Explanations if asked – I just went over everything and slapped my thoughts onto the document.

[Guardian]

Let me try to summarise the position here. Guardian, Incog, if you think I have misrepresented your position, keep your explanation to 6 lines or less - you've both posted enough on the subject that there is no need to repeat it again.

Incog thinks sl was scummy because she attacked Incog for stuff (reserving judgement, relying on other peoples' opinions) that she didn't attack others for. He also thinks that it is at least a possibility that sl replaced out because Incog mentioned that he had discovered a "sl is always aggressive as scum" meta.
Incog also thinks Guardian adopting many of sl's points is indicative of Guardian/sl being scum, and that Guardian's list of his thoughts on other players is very negative and/or leaves wiggle room to attack later.

~~~
Guardian thinks Incog is scummy because he has been dismissive (read: evasive) of attacks on him, and that he provoked sl into replacing out with his dismissiveness. Guardian also thinks that, having read the thread independently of sl, the fact that he agrees with many of sl's points suggests that they hold some weight.
Guardian also thinks that the timing of Incog's vote (immediately after Guardian replaced in) is odd.

~~~
I am deliberately not expressing a view until both Incog and Guardian have agreed that my summary is brief but essentially accurate.
In the meantime, someone should Boost Electra, and I will read the thread from the beginning

I don't think you are as fair with either of our POVs as you could be.

He thinks my reading quickly and then adopting my predecessor's opinions

combined

is suspicious -- indicative of me just trying to push the same case on him/same agenda without giving thought to it. He also thinks my singularity of focus on him is suspicious

I am accusing him of being dismissive

and

mean-spirited. I think many of sl's points hold weight independently; my agreeing with them lends them weight only if you already at the conclusion that I am town. You have not fully represented what I disliked about the timing of his vote -- he posted right before I replaced in, no vote, I replace in, vote. There was nothing that changed but me replacing in and so it seems that was why he voted. I also thought many of his points against me are bad/insincere/not well thought out.

Nevertheless, I am getting goosebumps recently. I really hope I have time over thanksgiving to re-read and see if I think Incognito is the best lynch after having read the thread more closely.

[Guardian]

iLord, you boost-hammered electra.
I note that you say Electra is suspicious of Electra... huh?

Why do you think the point about Incognito's vote-timing is stretching? Why doesn't it make sense to you? Maybe you see something I don't.

[iLord]

iLord, you boost-hammered electra.
I note that you say Electra is suspicious of Electra... huh?

I was under the impression that we wanted to boost-hammer Electra.

The Electra suspicious of Electra thing is a typo - I'm not actually sure who - maybe Crazy?

Why do you think the point about Incognito's vote-timing is stretching? Why doesn't it make sense to you? Maybe you see something I don't.

Incognito posted and had an opportunity to vote SL in 276, after the last time she posted. He didn't. Nothing major happened in the game between 276 and 280 except I replaced in. 277 and 278 are just me replacing in, 279 is Jahudo asking for comments on SL vs Incog. The only thing that changed in the game is that I replaced in -- and that caused Incognito to vote SL/me. He "joked" that he was voting because I replaced in -- and sure, maybe that was an "innocent" joke (innocent jokes are few and far between in mafia). But even had he not mentioned me replacing in -- it seems fairly clear that me replacing in/SL replacing out is what caused his vote, and he has provided no explanation for that. I can think of a few scum explanations for it, and cannot think of any townie ones.

"He didn't vote when he could - he voted only after you came in because of SL replacing out is" basically what you're saying here.

First of all, I think that this was probably not a joke. The reason behind that is that Incognito did explain why - he believed that his meta forced him to replace out.

[Electra]

Hm. My best guess (without re-reading SL) is that she didn't think that a player she didn't recognize would pull off this gambit as scum. I just think that if scum could talk pre-game (could they? did mod say? I tried to check and did not see one way or the other) a more experienced partner could have told you what to do.

I think I'm fairly experienced, if you look at my join date. :p However, this doesn't make sense, if I were new and scum, why would an experienced scum tell me to do this? Wouldn't the experienced scum just do it themselves so there would be less of a chance the gambit gets screwed up?

Anyway, I still don't think this gambit would have been a good or even possible scum play.

I'm very confused about what this is asking about, could you re-explain/clarify?

Not really a question, just some comments. I guess, why do you think Incognito would believe that you'd be suspicious of him? Generally replacements leave their counterparts' opinions behind.

That's fair enough but, could you explain why you disagree with my other points about boosting? You might see something I missed and convince me that those points are wrong -- more discussion about the theory of boosting is definitely relevant in this game.

I don't know, I am just not seeing much conversation coming from boosts. It doesn't help find who's more suspicious, it just gives people a town list. If anything, if there's scum who's been on several of these town lists, they may be encouraged.

Hm, that makes sense, but you could end up saying "Guys, I guess my role was unique!" I did not consider this point and it lends some more credence to how I said your claim would be more plausible IF there are other roles that explicitly say what happens when you boost them.

I do NOT want other peopl to reveal if they have such roles, or make it obvious... but if you do have such a role it is possible you have justification for boosting Electra that is unavailable to me.

It doesn't really seem like a unique role, does it? It's too related to the game to be one of a kind.

Why wouldn't town want to get further in the game? Me being lynched as town is the single worst contribution I can make to the town.

I actually have this thought too, and my strategy when I'm town is to try to clear myself as best as I can (hey, if all town can do this, then we win automatically). In general though, I've found town to be very unrelenting in their arguments and scum more friendly.

You are asserting that I made a mistake as scum in my second post that I took two hours to compose after replacing in. I make mistakes as scum, but not like that. I knew I was suggesting a link between them and boosting them, that was a conscious choice/thought process. I boosted them despite the possibility of them being linked.

I don't really get the link possibility. You said in your original post that they were linked, not that there was a possibility.

No before you right now asked me why I am boosting sth. I find him town for many reasons. He takes a very ubiased stance to the game, his suspicions seem largely untied to anyone else's with possible exception of iLord (I need to re-read/dig deeper) and also he suggested mass claim on page one in a way that made sense. I can try and go into more detail if that is necessary.

Fair enough.

more to come

Also yay for boosthammer.

[Guardian]

I was under the impression that we wanted to boost-hammer Electra.

Why does this matter? Did you want to boost-hammer her?

Hm. My best guess (without re-reading SL) is that she didn't think that a player she didn't recognize would pull off this gambit as scum. I just think that if scum could talk pre-game (could they? did mod say? I tried to check and did not see one way or the other) a more experienced partner could have told you what to do.

I think I'm fairly experienced, if you look at my join date. :p However, this doesn't make sense, if I were new and scum, why would an experienced scum tell me to do this? Wouldn't the experienced scum just do it themselves so there would be less of a chance the gambit gets screwed up?

For precisely this argument; the less experienced a player is the more likely people are to think it is not a gambit. The more experienced, the more likely it is to be a gambit.

Anyway, I still don't think this gambit would have been a good or even possible scum play.

It got you boosted day 1 didn't it? I would like to hear more about it not being a possible scum play, but good, certainly being boosted day 1 is good for scum.

I'm very confused about what this is asking about, could you re-explain/clarify?

Not really a question, just some comments. I guess, why do you think Incognito would believe that you'd be suspicious of him? Generally replacements leave their counterparts' opinions behind.

His joke//past experience playing mafia//intuition.

That's fair enough but, could you explain why you disagree with my other points about boosting? You might see something I missed and convince me that those points are wrong -- more discussion about the theory of boosting is definitely relevant in this game.

I don't know, I am just not seeing much conversation coming from boosts. It doesn't help find who's more suspicious, it just gives people a town list. If anything, if there's scum who's been on several of these town lists, they may be encouraged.

This makes sense but -- we are talking about who is good to boost, no?

Hm, that makes sense, but you could end up saying "Guys, I guess my role was unique!" I did not consider this point and it lends some more credence to how I said your claim would be more plausible IF there are other roles that explicitly say what happens when you boost them.

I do NOT want other peopl to reveal if they have such roles, or make it obvious... but if you do have such a role it is possible you have justification for boosting Electra that is unavailable to me.

It doesn't really seem like a unique role, does it? It's too related to the game to be one of a kind.

I would not have expected such roles to be in the game; maybe my expectations are off.

Why wouldn't town want to get further in the game? Me being lynched as town is the single worst contribution I can make to the town.

I actually have this thought too, and my strategy when I'm town is to try to clear myself as best as I can (hey, if all town can do this, then we win automatically). In general though, I've found town to be very unrelenting in their arguments and scum more friendly.

I find scum selectively friendly/mean, and I think that good town are very open minded... I don't see it nearly as clear-cut as you see it.

Are you categorizing my play as friendly and relenting? I wouldn't imagine that Incognito feels that way :\. And who am I being friendly to? sth?

You are asserting that I made a mistake as scum in my second post that I took two hours to compose after replacing in. I make mistakes as scum, but not like that. I knew I was suggesting a link between them and boosting them, that was a conscious choice/thought process. I boosted them despite the possibility of them being linked.

I don't really get the link possibility. You said in your original post that they were linked, not that there was a possibility.

I sounded much more confident than I was. I said "they are linked" with no qualifications. Obviously I didn't know both pairs were linked -- but I did not describe how sure I felt. I was suggesting a link, not claiming I was sure one was there. My language did not reflect that, I guess.

I am either backtracking or I am telling the truth that I was unclear -- that's for you to decide.

[Huntress]

This is the first of my individual reads on players. I'm trying to avoid repeating things which have already been looked at but I may not always succeed.

So to try to aid this, I'm going to put myself up for being boosted, and also claim-ish. I don't have a role, so I'm vanilla, however my role PM says that if I'm boosted, I'll gain information about the town (reworded, of course). I don't mind claiming since I'm not a power role, and if I'm not boosted, then Mafia have no reason to kill me, and I think that if I can get information, then it's a smart choice for a boost.

Here Electra claims to be vanilla but also claims to have a role PM which is clearly not vanilla; and a role which gains information about the town if boosted could just as easily be given to mafia as to town.

@ TD - you don't know. I am hoping the fact that there was no night (aka the mafia would not have been able to discuss this as a strategy) and that I did it so quickly works for me. In addition, mafia would not know that there would even be roles where it's stated what type of general thing a boost might do for you.

How do you know that the mafia would not know there could be such roles? They might have similar roles themselves. And how does the fact that you did this so quickly prove anything?

I think in terms of responses to my original post… first I appreciate the boosts, and I hope that you’re doing so because you think I’m town-ish.
Second, in terms of suspicious responses – Crazy’s “I’d like to just play normally and ignore all this boosting stuff” seems weird to me, it’s a bit passive, and sort of seems like scum trying to have a “safe” opinion. I find eldarad’s post to be unscummy, as I think that there’s no reason for scum to be the first to “react” to such a unique post. :p I also find iLord’s post to be unscummy for a similar reason.

You are misrepresenting Crazy here. He did not not say "ignore all this boosting stuff”. What he actually said was "I'd rather play normally and then find someone pro-townish to boost. I think it's likely that everyone will get at least something from being boosted... so I don't think boosting Electra is conceivably better than boosting anyone else at this point." Why is it 'passive' and 'like scum' not to give his boost to the first person to ask for it? Later on, in post 286, you write, "I know that I at least am being very careful about boosting people, and that before final boosts, I plan to reread the thread and decide which people are the least likely to be scum." So why did you think Crazy was scummy for showing the same caution? And why is it unscummy for eldarad and iLord to be quick to react?

@Huntress: Do you see anything suspicious from Electra that doesn't have to do with boosting/theory talk/setup talk?

The main thing is that, except for one or two of her more recent posts, she seems to be observing rather than actually scumhunting. She almost seems to be using her case against Crazy as an excuse for not going after anyone else, yet when she details her case on him she's listing things that are anti-town, not necessarily scummy.

[iLord]

asdf

Why does this matter? Did you want to boost-hammer her?

Yes - I've expressed as much.

The main thing is that, except for one or two of her more recent posts,

she seems to be observing rather than actually scumhunting.

She almost seems to be using her case against Crazy as an excuse for not going after anyone else, yet when she details her case on him she's listing things that are anti-town, not necessarily scummy.

This. I don't think it's a scumtell though - it's one of the reasons I'm reading her as town.

[Incognito]

@eldarad:

That's not really the full extent of issues I have with Guardian/springlullaby but quite frankly if people can't be bothered to read the thread, I can't be bothered to rehash points that I've been repeatedly repeating and getting crap-wagoned for.

@iLord:

Again, I'm not re-answering stuff that I've already covered.

My comments on your reads: I still think they look very contrived. You seem to just be summarizing the thread and then arbitrarily allotting people into this towniest to scummiest order, and I still have absolutely no clue how or why you've arranged people in the order you have. For example, Raging Rabbit was your number one before. You still seem to have some issues with him but somehow he's moved up your list in towniness? And you didn't even really give an explanation for why that's the case? RandomGem is scummy but he's like 6th from the top? I could say more but meh, I've just become really apathetic about this game lately.

The main thing is that, except for one or two of her more recent posts, she seems to be observing rather than actually scumhunting. She almost seems to be using her case against Crazy as an excuse for not going after anyone else, yet when she details her case on him she's listing things that are anti-town, not necessarily scummy.

This is an issue I have with a

number

of people in this game, actually, and it includes people who I've even indicated that I think might be town. Apparently if you sit around and twiddle your fucking thumbs in this game and pick up your prods regularly you get checked off as obvtown and get boosted but when you make an effort and raise valid points continuously and actually do research on people, you get crap-wagoned.

[TDC]

@TDC: In Post 386, why is a town-town relationship between SL/Guardian and Incognito unlikely because the conversation was intense?

Guardian has asked me the same question and I have answered it to the best of my ability in Post 400.

I don't think it's a scumtell though - it's one of the reasons I'm reading her as town.

Is scum more likely to scumhunt in your eyes, or what are you trying to say here?

[eldarad]

@eldarad: That's not really the full extent of issues I have with Guardian/springlullaby

Right. The issues you have with Guardian are many and varied, and are all integral to the massive case you have laid out in the thread. Indeed, to summarise the case in a single, readable post would fail to do the case justice.

Or possibly most of your case is waffling and repetition, and that explains your reluctance to accept an abbreviated summary of the case as it shows how little there is, at it's core.

Think I'm wrong? Have a go at summarising the case in a few sentences, without all of the quotes etc to back it up. Just so everyone is clear exactly what it is you are saying.

I can't be bothered to rehash points that I've been repeatedly repeating

I suspect that this is somewhat nearer the truth than you meant to reveal. I think the 'repeatedly repeating' thing is pretty accurate - hence why I was able to boil your case down to 6 lines despite the pages and pages you have written.

[Jahudo]

I've got limited access for about a week but I should be able to keep up with this game.

I'm okay with boosting RR, sthar, then TDC in that order of preference.

Beyond my suspicion of Incog I am looking at Mana more closely because I don't like his only post. There was some summary that was all over the place in early and I think some insignificant points but he ignores the major points of discussion; some boosts that aren't explained; and some questions that seem like he's asking for information that would be known if he read more closely.

The main thing is that, except for one or two of her more recent posts, she seems to be observing rather than actually scumhunting. She almost seems to be using her case against Crazy as an excuse for not going after anyone else, yet when she details her case on him she's listing things that are anti-town, not necessarily scummy.

Do you think she is ignoring other cases besides Crazy then? Do you think her observing is scumy or just anti-town?

You have not fully represented what I disliked about the timing of his vote -- he posted right before I replaced in, no vote, I replace in, vote. There was nothing that changed but me replacing in and so it seems that was why he voted.

But he said this in that same vote Guardian post:

I think she was agitated that I found this meta against her, and she stormed off because of that. I did nothing to provoke her, so her reaction seems over the top. Also, I still think my case against her is valid.

@Guardian: Do you think he believes the point about discovering SL's meta? Do you think that before this post he was trying to switch cases?

[iLord]

asdfasdf

@iLord: Again, I'm not re-answering stuff that I've already covered.

Could you at least show me around which posts you answered it? I must've missed it.

My comments on your reads: I still think they look very contrived. You seem to just be summarizing the thread and then arbitrarily allotting people into this towniest to scummiest order, and I still have absolutely no clue how or why you've arranged people in the order you have. For example, Raging Rabbit was your number one before. You still seem to have some issues with him but somehow he's moved up your list in towniness? And you didn't even really give an explanation for why that's the case? RandomGem is scummy but he's like 6th from the top? I could say more but meh, I've just become really apathetic about this game lately.

Basically what I do is I list stuff that could possibly exhibit town or scum tells. Then, I look over what I've typed up, and that combined with my impressions generates my tells. I don't think RR's that scummy anymore - I've been reading him as more town, and I think he genuinely thinks guilt is a scumtell. He might be even higher than the spot I gave him. RandomGem has done nothing - fuzzylightning was minorly scummy for one post - not enough for me to feel that he is scummy.

I didn't put explanations for a lot of my reads, so I'll explain anything you ask me - the last post was relatively quickly thrown together.

Is scum more likely to scumhunt in your eyes, or what are you trying to say here?

Like I said, her posts fit the newb mold really well - lots of talk and looking for "tells," not enough scumhunting. I'm reading it as a newb town tell.

---------------------------------------------------

Hopefully Jahudo case soon, but my computer has had some pretty major problems.

[Incognito]

Sorry if I came off a bit snippy in that last post. I'm just a bit frustrated by a few things related to this game. iLord, maybe this will help answer your question too. I don't expect this to change anyone's mind since it hasn't done so yet but here are the points rehashed:

Points against springlullaby

• Consistently pushing weak or untrue points to the point of exhaustion after I repeatedly explained what it was I was trying to do during early game.
  
• When these points didn't stick, she then resorted to personal insults and (probable) manufactured anger to try and get her "points across".
  Note: I've been attacked for ad-hom so those people who are willing to allow this to slide really crack me up.
  
  
• Double standard treatment of me when compared to iLord in relation to his fuzzylightning read, and double standard treatment of me when compared to Crazy's "QFT everything eldarad said" and my "appealing to eldarad".
  
• Contradictory questioning ("why ask scum questions? don't you expect scum to lie?"<- this probably goes into the weak or untrue points section)
  
• My meta read of her suggests that her PPD rate, her pushing of weak or untrue points, and her anger/super aggressive tone matches her scum meta quite well when compared to her town meta.

Points against Guardian

• Dirty reads.
  
• Backtracking.
  
• (RR's gonna love this one): Trying too hard to appear pro-town. "OMG guys boost me! I'm town!" "I'm replacing springlullaby, and I got my role (pro-town obvobv)!"
  
• Lightning fast read that quickly adopted his predecessor's view and when his points didn't stick, he quite
  conveniently
  reviewed the thread and began to have a change of heart.
  
• There's other more intangible things I can't put into words here.

@iLord:

I'm assuming that your towniest to scummiest list has made no attempt to draw connections between people or suggest a possible scum team. Is this a far assumption?

[iLord]

@iLord: I'm assuming that your towniest to scummiest list has made no attempt to draw connections between people or suggest a possible scum team. Is this a far assumption?

Yes - I don't believe in basing your reads too heavily on ties before dead bodies start showing up. Some players like to do that, but I find the recovering of your mindset after your "scumteam" has been torn apart to be quite detrimental on your scumhunting view afterwards.

The list you typed up is basically the points I got from the thread, and thanks for condensing it - it makes it a lot easier to comment on. Here's my opinion on these points:

Points against springlullaby

Consistently pushing weak or untrue points to the point of exhaustion after I repeatedly explained what it was I was trying to do during early game.

I don't believe that this is a scumtell - from what I've read, I believe that she genuinely believed that her points were strong, hence her refusual to take the opportunity to drop the weak points at my suggestion.

When these points didn't stick, she then resorted to personal insults and (probable) manufactured anger to try and get her "points across". Note: I've been attacked for ad-hom so those people who are willing to allow this to slide really crack me up.

She is "ad-homing," She is resorting to insults. But I'm reading her anger as genuine, and I don't believe that the anger is manufactured. I'm reading her anger as genuine - she's fuming at how she's not succeeding in executing her lynch, and fuming at the way you're defending from her attacks. Her position is a perfectly common position for townies to be angry in, and I don't believe that it is scummy.

Double standard treatment of me when compared to iLord in relation to his fuzzylightning read, and double standard treatment of me when compared to Crazy's "QFT everything eldarad said" and my "appealing to eldarad".

I consider the Double Standards under the weak points.

Contradictory questioning ("why ask scum questions? don't you expect scum to lie?"<- this probably goes into the weak or untrue points section)

You might need to explain this point more a little - I'm not really familiar.

My meta read of her suggests that her PPD rate, her pushing of weak or untrue points, and her anger/super aggressive tone matches her scum meta quite well when compared to her town meta.

Can't say much against this one since I haven't had time to read the games over. I can say that the parts that you have quoted haven't exactly convinced me, but again, example where she faked anger would be very interesting.

Points against Guardian

Dirty reads.

Weak - many town explanations as well as scum ones - the simplest being he actually holds said opinions.

Backtracking.

Going to have to look back on this one too - don't remember it either.

(RR's gonna love this one): Trying too hard to appear pro-town. "OMG guys boost me! I'm town!" "I'm replacing springlullaby, and I got my role (pro-town obvobv)!"

"Trying too hard to appear pro-town" is really a vibe thing, and I'm not getting that vibe. Any townie would want to be boosted, and the "pro-town obviously" is very much a null tell - Guardian knows that it doesn't make him look town at all (actually making him look scummy), and is sort of a joke.

Lightning fast read that quickly adopted his predecessor's view and when his points didn't stick, he quite conveniently reviewed the thread and began to have a change of heart.

I don't think it's "convenient" at all. I think it's natural. Adopting his predecessor's view is definitely not scummy, and the lightning fast read serves to back-up his rereading.

There's other more intangible things I can't put into words here.

This may be a bigger part of your read than you realize - it's certainly a big part of mine. It's when we start ignoring this part and start looking for "scumtells" then we lose our ability to scumhunt accurately.

[Raging Rabbit]

More information on how you say you scumhunt – and how you have scumhunted.
Which category of scumtells do my actions fall under?

I don't really have it that clear cut in my head, attacking a pro town fits the "hurts the town and makes sense from a scum point of view" definition, but obviously doesn't mean much by itself - what makes me suspect you is that the contradictions and contrived sounding statements in your case make it look like you don't actually believe it and are just looking to have a convincing sounding case - so dishonesty is the key word here, I guess.

The point was dropped unintentionally, but now I’m going to drop it because it really is not convincing anyone, which is what a case must do to be successful.

To be "successful" yes, but a case isn't only meant to convince others - it's main purpose for pro town players is to gauge the suspect's reaction and figure out if you still think he's scum based on his defense. This statement along with your unvote of me following my unvote of you and your big post that contains mostly objective summary, which like Incog said looks pretty arbitrary; you could dramtically change the order of your scum-town list with relatively little editing - make me think you dropped my suspicion for the sole reason of lack of support and tried to smooth it out in the most pro town looking way you figured possible.

"He didn't vote when he could - he voted only after you came in because of SL replacing out is" basically what you're saying here.

First of all, I think that this was probably not a joke. The reason behind that is that Incognito did explain why - he believed that his meta forced him to replace out.

No idea what you're saying here.

This is an issue I have with a number of people in this game, actually, and it includes people who I've even indicated that I think might be town. Apparently if you sit around and twiddle your fucking thumbs in this game and pick up your prods regularly you get checked off as obvtown and get boosted but when you make an effort and raise valid points continuously and actually do research on people, you get crap-wagoned.

Your point here seems to be "I post a lot, therefore I'm town", which is totally fallacious.

My meta read of her suggests that her PPD rate, her pushing of weak or untrue points, and her anger/super aggressive tone matches her scum meta quite well when compared to her town meta.

What town meta do you have of her? How did you form it?

Electra - what do you think of Incog and iLord?

Eldarad - now that the summary thing has extorted any usefulness it might've had, what do you think of Incog/Guardian?

Mana_Ku, RandomGem and Huntress - we need this town way more active, and you've had enough time to catch up by now. Post, boost and vote asap, please.

[Incognito]

Your point here seems to be "I post a lot, therefore I'm town", which is totally fallacious.

Uh, no. That's not my point at all. Try harder.

What town meta do you have of her? How did you form it?

I've commented on this before. I formed it by reading her town games. Duh.

[Raging Rabbit]

Uh, no. That's not my point at all. Try harder.

Once you strip away all the empty refences to your points as "valid" and your wagon as "crap", what you're left with in a nutshell is that we should go attack the people who aren't saying as much as you are.

I've commented on this before. I formed it by reading her town games. Duh.

As far as I recall, you read one town game where she didn't get pissed off and one scum game where she did.

[Incognito]

First off, I said nothing about

attacking

people who aren't saying as much as I am. So again, try harder. I specifically mentioned that I think that these certain players who aren't really doing much are players who I think might even be town. Why would I want people to attack other people who I think might be town? I'd like these people who are being non-contributive to finally contribute.

Second, I didn't only focus on whether or not she got pissed off as town and whether or not that was only a characteristic of her scum play, and I didn't only focus on one game each. TDC linked to a bunch of other games where she was town that I also looked into. There were other characteristics of her play aside from her demeanor that I looked into also that I commented on previously.

[Incognito]

Oh and just to note: I might be V/LA from now until like Saturday due to Thanksgiving.

[iLord]

To be "successful" yes, but a case isn't only meant to convince others - it's main purpose for pro town players is to gauge the suspect's reaction and figure out if you still think he's scum based on his defense. This statement along with your unvote of me following my unvote of you and your big post that contains mostly objective summary, which like Incog said looks pretty arbitrary; you could dramtically change the order of your scum-town list with relatively little editing - make me think you dropped my suspicion for the sole reason of lack of support and tried to smooth it out in the most pro town looking way you figured possible.

Exactly! I have pressured you, and I have deemed that your reactions are not indicative of scum. Believe it or not, my reads have reasons behind them. If you want to point out a specific reasons behind my reads, I’ll answer your inquiries.

No idea what you're saying here.

Sorry if I was unclear – what I was trying to say is that I don’t think it’s a joke, and that Incognito voted because of SL replacing out, and that he stated his reason for doing so.

[Raging Rabbit]

First off, I said nothing about attacking people who aren't saying as much as I am. So again, try harder. I specifically mentioned that I think that these certain players who aren't really doing much are players who I think might even be town. Why would I want people to attack other people who I think might be town? I'd like these people who are being non-contributive to finally contribute.

You did sort of attack them being "obvtown", but I'll revise - you said you're more town than them because you post more.

Second, I didn't only focus on whether or not she got pissed off as town and whether or not that was only a characteristic of her scum play, and I didn't only focus on one game each. TDC linked to a bunch of other games where she was town that I also looked into. There were other characteristics of her play aside from her demeanor that I looked into also that I commented on previously.

I'll try and read some into these games when I'll have the time, but her frustration reads totally genuine and I have a hard time believing she's that brilliant an actress. And I don't think the parts you quoted in-thread, at least, are very convincing at all.

Exactly! I have pressured you, and I have deemed that your reactions are not indicative of scum. Believe it or not, my reads have reasons behind them. If you want to point out a specific reasons behind my reads, I’ll answer your inquiries.

Obviously you would say that, but that "I'll drop the point because it isn't successful" statement along with the timing and manner of your unvote make me think otherwise.

Sorry if I was unclear – what I was trying to say is that I don’t think it’s a joke, and that Incognito voted because of SL replacing out, and that he stated his reason for doing so.

Guardian's point, I believe, was that Incog posted after SL asked for replacement without voting her, and then he voted Guardain with nothing changing besides his replacing in.

[eldarad]

Eldarad - now that the summary thing has extorted any usefulness it might've had, what do you think of Incog/Guardian?

In a nutshell, I am unconvinced by both of them. In an either/or choice I would lynch Guardian over Incog, if it ever came to that. I expressed a similar sentiment (believing Incog over Guardian) a while ago and my opinion hasn't really changed since.
However, I don't think that's a healthy choice for the town to have to make.

I still find springlullaby's anger to be feigned rather than genuine, and for a while I have been trying to work out whether that was because of playing as a different persona to her real life personality, or whether it was a product of her alignment.

I'm now swaying towards sl's anger being faked as a way of manufacturing heat between herself and Incog. That would also explain why Guardian jumped in with all guns blazing and why Incog and Guardian have expended so much effort making their exchange drag on and on and on and on despite that fact that, when you get down to it, the case can be neatly summarised in, at most, 10 bullet points each - and probably 8 would be enough if you really tried.

~~~
I still find iLord scummy, and could see him as scum independently of my Guardian-Incog scumpair theory. Although I also think an iLord-Guardian-Incog scumteam is totally consistent with what I have seen so far.

#452 does nothing to alleviate my concerns, and I share the view of RR and Incog that his "reads" are objective summaries rather than his own opinions.
If I had to summarise the whole of #452 in one word, I would use "contrived"
The bit that, if anything, bothers me the most is how iLord unboosts

someone he thinks is town

in order to have the top two in his list as the ones he boosts.

The pieces of the iLord-Guardian-Incog scumpuzzle begin to come together when you see that iLord has - in his characteristic devoid-of-actual-opinion way - listed one of his scumbuddies as "town" and the other one as "scum".
Gosh, he's as cunning as a fox who has just won the Nobel prize for Cunning.

@eldarad: Why did you boost Jahudo in Post 234?

Accumulated towniness. And he was a 'safer' boost in my eyes that some of the more high profile posters.

~~~
Mana_Ku, sthar8, Electra: are you still happy with your vote on Huntress (Crazy)? What's your opinion on the Guardian/Incog cases now that you can read them in one handy post?