Mini 692: Boost Mafia (Game Over!)

[sthar8]

How so, Incog? We haven't actually had anything from him yet.

[Raging Rabbit]

sthar's claim is surprising, I figured his early massclaim speculation meant he had extra info about the game due to having some sort of PR. Also, sthar, you're saying you're basically vanilla that gets double vote if boosted, right?

[Incognito]

sthar8, I'll explain later but first I've got a question for Huntress.

Huntress, before day's end you claimed that you had this case against me that was going to pretty much bring the wagon of death to me. Do you still think I'm scum? If yes, can you explain why in as much detail as you possibly could? If no, can you explain why in as much detail as you possibly could?

[sthar8]

sthar's claim is surprising, I figured his early massclaim speculation meant he had extra info about the game due to having some sort of PR.

I do have a power role...

It was the structure and wording of my PM that led me to believe that massclaim might be a viable option. I believe electra may be about to ask me a question along those lines, so I won't steal her thunder by elaborating.

You might also want to review how electra's "townie, vaguely described power when boosted" claim made me think she was town.

The type of claim

really

shouldn't be surprising.

Also, sthar, you're saying you're basically vanilla that gets double vote if boosted, right?

I'm a double voter. I have a second, secret vote that I PM to elmo in order to use.

I don't know how to be more explicit.

Incog: Is your reply going to be based on Huntress's response?

Everyone: Is there any reason I should save the second vote, or can I just go ahead and demonstrate, to prove my claim?

[Electra]

Sorry, here's my information. I'm very busy as it is near Christmas, but don't want to stall the game, so what I was told was

1. There are some players in the game that boosts do nothing for.
2. Boosts will only work for a player 2 times, after that, they will have no effect.

[Raging Rabbit]

I don't know how to be more explicit.

If you're a one shot double voter anyways (which isn't much of a power role, btw), what effect did the boost have on you?

[eldarad]

I'm not convinced that using the double-vote to "confirm" sthar is that useful, since it doesn't confirm his alignment, only that he is being truthful about the effect of the boost.
Having said that, on the use it or lose it principle, I have no problem with sthar using his second vote at any point he wishes.

I'm pretty happy with the info Electra has produced, particularly as one of the issues someone had with Electra's claim was that "information isn't testable" whereas the specific information that Electra has given is testable.
The fact that the information is testable is enough for me to not want to test it, if that makes sense.

[sthar8]

If you're a one shot double voter anyways (which isn't much of a power role, btw), what effect did the boost have on you?

since it doesn't confirm his alignment, only that he is being truthful about the effect of the boost.

The thing is, it clears me of being the second kill, which I got the impression some people were worried about. It also increases my probability of being town, because a double-voting scum is

very

powerful, and I don't think it fits with what we've seen of the setup.

Electra's information is not quite what I expected, but is certainly helpful.

Eldarad: how could we test electra's information reliably?

[sthar8]

EBWOP: Happy birthday, eldarad.

[Raging Rabbit]

Wow, that's a really annoying response. Earlier you said:

I'm a double voter. I have a second, secret vote that I PM to elmo in order to use.

Which implies you're a double voter regardless of being boosted. So if you're saying you only got a double vote because you were boosted, how are you a power role? If you were a double voter regardless of the boost, what effect did the boost have?

[sthar8]

Which implies you're a double voter regardless of being boosted.

Only if you take that quote entirely out of context. You need to read

all

the words, otherwise you aren't going to get the whole message.

So if you're saying you only got a double vote because you were boosted, how are you a power role?

Maybe we define power roles differently. I define them as having an ability above and beyond the standard town mechanics for a game. How do you define it?

Also, If I'd had a double vote yesterday, don't you think I would have killed Huntress?

Electra: I'm not sure how any of the information you gave would catch me out if I were lying. Could you elaborate on this?

I'd like to hear more from iceman and GC, and get suspicions from everybody.

I'll save my second vote until I need to use it, but I still want to

vote: Huntress

[Raging Rabbit]

Also, sthar, you're saying you're basically vanilla that gets double vote if boosted, right?

You could've just answered "yeah", y'know.

And everyone gets "an ability above and beyond the standard town mechanics for a game" when boosted, so no, that's not a PR (well, according to electra's info it's not everyone, but I still assume most people do and you didn't have that info before anyways).

What about the structure of your PM made you think massclaiming would be good?

[sthar8]

You could've just answered "yeah", y'know.

I hate having to repeat myself because someone didn't bother to read my post. Besides, I was bored.

And everyone gets "an ability above and beyond the standard town mechanics for a game" when boosted, so no, that's not a PR (well, according to electra's info it's not everyone, but I still assume most people do and you didn't have that info before anyways).

Um, you can have a game in which every player has a PR. Most smalltown games are run this way, I believe. Every player just has some special ability that goes beyond the town mechanics. I could tell that I had one from my PM because it's pretty obvious that not everyone recieved same one as I did, even if they were all the same type.

What about the structure of your PM made you think massclaiming would be good?

My role PM gave nonspecific qualities of my character, and implied that boosting me would amplify these charactersitics into a power. Scum would likely not know this, and if they did their qualities would necessarily be different from town ones. An early claim would force scum to commit to "vanilla," "vanilla with boost," or "normal PR." If they claim vanilla, and no townie has a "vanilla without boost" role, then they are caught. If we have true vanilla townies, we narrow the pool significantly, and know who our safe lynches are right away. If they claim "vanilla with boost," they are forced to lie, and making scum lie is the easiest way to catch them, especially since they have no standard example of how "vanilla with boost" works for town. I would not have discounted scum assuming that "boostees" would be explicitly informed of their powers, before electra elaborated on her claim. If they claim "normal PR," they are stuck in whatever role they chose, we gain information if they continue to live, and we might catch scum through counterclaim. I originally thought that there would be no traditional power roles in this game, obviously that assumption was wrong, and the strategy is weakened considerably. I guessed that if my speculation was correct, other players might come to the same conclusion and support the idea of massclaim, giving us a good chance of catching at least one scum on D1.

[Electra]

@sthar - The information I didn't want you to know is that some people didn't get boosts. If you knew this, then you could just claim it if you were scum. Similarly, if you claimed it but didn't know the information beforehand, it would make you more cleared.

I was actually lying in my game setup speculation in the very beginning, because of the wording of my role, I thought that there were no traditional power roles, just roles that became power if boosted (so I thought I would become a cop, and said that I believed there were other power roles and that I was "vanilla" so Mafia wouldn't bother to kill me). Turns out my fake speculation was more correct.

Huntress, I forgot if you mentioned, but what is your role's flavor?

[Huntress]

Huntress, before day's end you claimed that you had this case against me that was going to pretty much bring the wagon of death to me.

Wow! That's quite an exaggeration . Would you care to point out where I said that? I believe I said I was suspicious of you and was doing a re-read.

Do you still think I'm scum? If yes, can you explain why in as much detail as you possibly could? If no, can you explain why in as much detail as you possibly could?

Yes, I still think there is a reasonable likelihood of you being scum, but the detail will have to wait until after Christmas now.

Everyone: Is there any reason I should save the second vote, or can I just go ahead and demonstrate, to prove my claim?

It seems a waste to use it just to prove your claim. I can see it as being useful if we are ever in danger of failing to get a majority in time for a deadline. One extra vote then may make all the difference.

Huntress, I forgot if you mentioned, but what is your role's flavor?

There was no role-name or title but the wording indicated flavor of a spiritual nature.


I'm going to be very short of time over the next few days. I'll try to get some posts in if I can but no guarantees.

[Incognito]

Huntress, I exaggerated that deliberately. I really am quite interested in reading why you still believe I'm scum so I look forward to reading that very soon.

There's something about sthar8's role claim that I really don't like. I'm intentionally being non-specific here, and I'll likely explain why later.

sthar8, according to your sig you've completed 5 games of forum Mafia on here. How much forum experience do you have outside of MS? How many games have you read just for the heck of it? In how many of your games on here and outside of here have you seen Day 1's where exactly both of the competing lynch wagons happened to be on scum?

[Incognito]

Oh and

Boost: Raging Rabbit

because he's obvtown.

[Raging Rabbit]

Um, you can have a game in which every player has a PR. Most smalltown games are run this way, I believe. Every player just has some special ability that goes beyond the town mechanics. I could tell that I had one from my PM because it's pretty obvious that not everyone recieved same one as I did, even if they were all the same type.

That's technically correct I guess, but the definition I use which I believe is more common is a role that's has more power in relation to other members of the town.

My role PM gave nonspecific qualities of my character, and implied that boosting me would amplify these charactersitics into a power. Scum would likely not know this, and if they did their qualities would necessarily be different from town ones. An early claim would force scum to commit to "vanilla," "vanilla with boost," or "normal PR." If they claim vanilla, and no townie has a "vanilla without boost" role, then they are caught. If we have true vanilla townies, we narrow the pool significantly, and know who our safe lynches are right away. If they claim "vanilla with boost," they are forced to lie, and making scum lie is the easiest way to catch them, especially since they have no standard example of how "vanilla with boost" works for town. I would not have discounted scum assuming that "boostees" would be explicitly informed of their powers, before electra elaborated on her claim. If they claim "normal PR," they are stuck in whatever role they chose, we gain information if they continue to live, and we might catch scum through counterclaim. I originally thought that there would be no traditional power roles in this game, obviously that assumption was wrong, and the strategy is weakened considerably. I guessed that if my speculation was correct, other players might come to the same conclusion and support the idea of massclaim, giving us a good chance of catching at least one scum on D1.

Given what we know now that would've worked horribly, but I guess it works as an explanation for your page 1 thinking.

I can't find anything really wrong with either of our bostees - though sthar's claim is certainly disappointing - but that doesn't shake the nagging feeling that one of them is scum. I need to reread this game and look at Jahudo interaction anyways, since I don't have much of an idea where I want my vote right now.


Incog - I'm always obvtown, but what made you realize that here?

[Green Crayons]

I'd like to hear more from iceman and GC, and get suspicions from everybody.

During the holidays I am skimming the posts but not really reading too deeply. As that is the case, my ideas are hardly finalized and more in a rough draft format. As things currently stand, these are the ideas floating at the surface:

I'm comfortable with sthar still. He can use his boost ability to show he wasnt the extra kill (but as eld says it doesn't confirm his alignment.. a double vote scum would be powerful in the later days, but only because we put that power in his hands - I don't know if Patrick would think this would be excessive, because if we're giving scum a power that is only (truly) useful in the late game it's only speeding up our demise, not really turning the game on its head), though if we truly want to go down that road, that leaves open the possibility that Electra was the extra killer (that being, those two pieces of town info could be something she knows from her (antitown?)role description, Patrick's post 2 or just outright lies). I don't know if I can subscribe to this theory of a boosted second kill as of yet (I still find RR's reasoning behind the notion a bit weak), but since RR was so insistent on the extra kill being boost related, I would like for him to be reminded of this aspect of his suspicion.

Still working from the sthar line of thought, I don't think his mass claim idea would have worked.

And jumping from there, I would like to say that I came to the opposite conclusion of Eld's 712 re: Huntress and role suspicion. I will flush this (and other points) out more post-holidays (the weekend is looking pretty good), but I want people to know my thoughts based on my skimming.


Oh, and Incog: how is it that RR is obvtown?

[Incognito]

All right. I was going to wait awhile longer before I did this but since people are asking questions now, I think I'm just going to claim. The reason why I'm claiming is because it should be glaringly obvious to the scum what my role is, and therefore I think it's best to just come forward with it so that the whole town and not just myself and the informed minority know about it.

I'm a vigilante. According to my role PM, I began the game with a single bullet. I have absolutely no clue what happens to me if I'm boosted but if I had to venture a guess, I would think I might gain an additional bullet. I killed Guardian (obviously) since I thought he was scum yesterday and after reading the thread and looking at Jahudo <-> springlullaby/him interactions I thought they stood a higher than average chance of being scum together. I also thought that there was no way Guardian would have a power role because of what he mentioned here:

If someone claimed a role that was vanilla but had a pretty obvious thing that should/would get improved upon boosting, I would be about the same likelihood of believing her. If someone claimed another role that explicitly stated the exact nature of what would happen if they were boosted, but it was no informational, I might be more likely to believe her.

I don't really understand the difference between these two. Can you clarifiy?

Like if someone was a vanilla but it says their job was a nurse, then if they get boosted it would be pretty obvious they would be a doctor.

It seemed to me like he had no clue how the boosting mechanics worked for power roles since I knew by my own role that I began as a vigilante and didn't have to be boosted to a vigilante level while he seemed to be suggesting that someone could begin at nursing level and be boosted to a doctor. I figured he either had to be scum or if he was town, he had to be vanilla which would be a loss, but not too great a loss as the loss of a power role is to the town. Now that his role has been revealed, it's clear the above quote was a breadcrumb to his role unfortunately.

I say Raging Rabbit is obvtown because of how he's approached this game from the start of Day 2 -- he seems genuinely suspicious of sthar8 in that he believes that sthar8 may have been responsible for the second kill. Also his speculation about this being a vig-less or SK-less set-up seems town to me since scum would pretty much be absolutely certain that I performed the Guardian kill since they were responsible for the iLord kill. Lastly, his switch from his vote of me to Jahudo just had a really town feel to it and he's continued that train of thought into today despite the fact that I was one of his top suspicions yesterday. His vote was a major turning point towards getting Jahudo-GF lynched.

Also, I might as well reveal why I'm suspicious of sthar8's claim. Judging by Guardian's reveal as Doctor and judging by my own role, I really don't think true town power roles need to be boosted in order to gain their abilities. I think they begin with the ability they would normally have but might possibly gain a perk if boosted (I guess this could be compared to Electra's claimed information). Therefore, I'm suspicious of the fact that sthar8 is claiming that he didn't

begin

with his second vote abilities and needed to be boosted to that level. If he really

does

have this ability, I get the feeling that by being boosted he's actually gained this ability a second time so that if he uses it today to "prove" himself, he might still have a spare copy available further along into end-game. There are other things that I disliked about sthar8's D1 play that make me suspicious of him as well that I will likely go into in the near future. But yeah, that's my problem with sthar8's claim.

If anyone has any questions about my claim, I'll gladly respond. I should have much more content later on after the holidays.

[Raging Rabbit]

That actually makes a lot of sense. I'm contemplating boosting Incog to gain another likely town kill, but I'm not sure I trust him that much yet. I'll review it again during my reread.

[Incognito]

Bump. Reread hasn't been completed yet, and I've been too exhausted to really put together an analytical post. I hope everyone had a nice holiday. =)

[Huntress]

I haven't been able to look at this since my last post but I hope to get down to it tomorrow.

[Raging Rabbit]

Beginning a reread now, will come back with notes asap.

[Elmo]