[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[Korts]

Been thinking about the Two of Four concept. Basically the Miller hurts scum because it makes a confirmed innocent towards end game if not countered. Thus forcing scum into a 50/50 situation at massclaim.

Since there is no assurance of there being a Miller at all, it doesn't make them confirmed for lack of a counterclaim.

I'm thinking of a 3 of 4, or a 3 of 5 set up:

9 players:
2 scum
7 town

and either three of the following 4:
1 Cop
1 Doc
1 Vanilla townie/ mafia RB
1 Vanilla townie

OR three of the following 5:
1 Cop
1 Doc
1 Vanilla townie/ mafia RB
1 Vanilla townie
1 Miller

Flipping the RB over to the mafia side helps scum combat the possibility of town power roles and gives a possible solution to follow the cop.

This could still suffer from the situation that happened with Kison in F11 where the mafia RB was the D1 lynch, though a Cop/Doc combo is not gauranteed (or likely) in such an instance.

The 3 of 5 would be better than the 3 of 4 simply because of the bigger variance of role interaction, giving scum better fakeclaiming prospects. with 3 of 4 there'd only be 4 possibilities, while with 3 of 5 there'd be... god I'm lazy to do the math.

I like this idea though.

[Empking's Alt]

Meh Dethy

- it's a logic puzzle, not Mafia.

I think we can agree that there should be a rule that says "games that do not start off with more than one scum player are not mafia" -- that is my objection to Dethy anyway. It needs more scumz.

I'd argue that they're mafia, just not normal.

[Adel]

There's Four Jacks in Every Deck

2 Mafia Goons
1 Mafia Jack-of-All-Trades (one shot each of kill, roleblock, alignment invert (can target self))
1 Neutral Jack-of-All-Trades (one shot each of kill, roleblock, alignment invert (can target self); unlimited NK-immunity) i.e. SK
2 Pro-Town Jacks-of-All-Trades (one shot each of protect, investigate, roleblock)
5 Vanilla Townies

I think I like this one.

questions:
1. what is the sk's initial alignment?
2. what does a investigation of a sk's alignment reveal him to be?
3. do you think that it would be ethical for the mafia jack-of-all trades to lie and tell her mafia partners that she was a goon? I think that would be the dominant tactic, and would lead to some jummy and recursive paranoia.
4. it is broken by a day 1 massclaim. The two jack of all trades out them selves, out the two mafia goons, and invert alignment N1 while one of the protown jack of all trades roleblocks the last mafia goon.

please fix the broken part

~~~
here is one way:

There's Four Jacks in Every Deck

2 Mafia Goons
1 Mafia Jack-of-All-Trades (one shot each of kill, roleblock, alignment shift mafia->sk->town->mafia & can target self)
1 Neutral Jack-of-All-Trades (one shot each of kill, roleblock, alignment shift mafia->town->sk->mafia & can target self) i.e. SK
2 Pro-Town Jacks-of-All-Trades (one shot each of protect, investigate, roleblock)
5 Vanilla Townies

now the massclaim will not happen for fear of treachery... or will it?

I could see this possible scenario:
1. neutral and mafia jacks claim
2. mafia jack claims players

q

and

r

as scum buddies.
3. the town ignores their protests and lynches player

r

, who is revealed to be a townie or even a pro-town jack (random is 2/7 chance of forcing a protown jack to claim).
4. N1 mafia jack roleblocks neutral jack. The mafia kill the Sk. The cops investigate whomever they choose.
5. WIFOM happens as players talk about if player

p

is also mafia or not.

I like the idea of the mafia and neutral jack possibly finding ways to help each other out.

[Korts]

Oh. I originally meant "alignment invert" to mean alignment investigation immunity, but I guess it works both ways.

I assume all your questions are based on the thought that the anti-town jacks can change people's alignments.

1. for the sake of simplicity anti-town just like mafia is; his alignment invert would recruit a partner for him (either from town or from the mafia) or make him town.
2. anti-town
3. ethical? I don't think it's a question of ethics, it would be the correct play.
4. restrict the mafia jack's alignment invert; cannot target self. he can either convert another mafia into town (I don't see any particular motive for that though) or town into mafia. SK would become part of the mafia as well.

[Korts]

here is one way:

There's Four Jacks in Every Deck

2 Mafia Goons
1 Mafia Jack-of-All-Trades (one shot each of kill, roleblock, alignment shift mafia->sk->town->mafia & can target self)
1 Neutral Jack-of-All-Trades (one shot each of kill, roleblock, alignment shift mafia->town->sk->mafia & can target self & has unlimited NK-immunity) i.e. SK
2 Pro-Town Jacks-of-All-Trades (one shot each of protect, investigate, roleblock)
5 Vanilla Townies

now the massclaim will not happen for fear of treachery... or will it?

This is good; gives the mafia jack incentive not to give his old partners to the town even if he converts to being the SK's partner.

[Adel]

my ninja was drinking on the job again: you caught her edits in a major way. sorry.

~~~

the investigation invert is an interesting idea. I need to redigest the setup.

[Korts]

Hmm. I see you removed the NK-immunity; do you think it made the SK too strong? They can still be caught by investigation.

But as to your scenario, I don't see why the mafia jack would claim. even if they're converted, they would be partnered with the SK and the town would be aware of this; therefore they'd be lynched as an anti-town faction. Same for the neutral jack. if they convert, they become mafia and don't have any more incentive to claim truthfully than before; probably less.

[Adel]

they would both claim and promise to cross-convert: mafia targets sk and sk targets mafia with alignment change.

I think nk-immune is too strong. investigation-immune totally doesnt work though. I think another problem with alignment conversion is if the sk converts to mafia and still has that extra kill.

I think the original idea is probably better. Sorry for the tangent.

[Korts]

Hm. I definitely think the SK needs the NK-immunity, or unlimited kills. Otherwise it's a significantly weaker role than SKs in general. Even then I could see mafia jack having the SK convert him to his side to form a second mafia group while keeping up the facade of both becoming town. It doesn't break the game this way, it just adds an unnecessary layer of WIFOM.

EDIT: so I agree with

your

edit, the original idea is more workable even if this one is more interesting.

[Adel]

<3 JDodge Mafia

2 Mafia Goons
1 Mafia Goon (fnord)
2 Werewolves
1 Werewolf (fnord)
3 Townies (fnord)
2 Compulsive Vigs / Masons (each has a nk)
6 Townies

day start

Each night each fnord can switch the alignments of two other target players. Those players shall be protected from kills for that night. fnords will resolve in the order that they were received.

Only the original members of each scum group are allowed to talk at night with each other, and that ability to communicate does not change if their alignment changes. Ditto for the Masons.

For scum night kills, the first PM the mod receives is the kill that shall go through.

fnord'd players will be informed (if their alignment changed) by PM at the beginning of the new day.

Too swingy? Too random?

[ac1983fan]

<3 JDodge Mafia

2 Mafia Goons
1 Mafia Goon (fnord)
2 Werewolves
1 Werewolf (fnord)
3 Townies (fnord)
2 Compulsive Vigs / Masons (each has a nk)
6 Townies

day start

Each night each fnord can switch the alignments of two other target players. Those players shall be protected from kills for that night. fnords will resolve in the order that they were received.

Only the original members of each scum group are allowed to talk at night with each other, and that ability to communicate does not change if their alignment changes. Ditto for the Masons.

For scum night kills, the first PM the mod receives is the kill that shall go through.

fnord'd players will be informed (if their alignment changed) by PM at the beginning of the new day.

Too swingy? Too random?

Oh dear god, that's worse than several cult. I don't think many people would want to play in a game where there aligment could be changed at any moment to any of the other alignments in the game. The Scum could end up being completely different that original. I don't really think that this game has the spirit of mafia in it.

[Empking's Alt]

Games where mafia can become town are bad.

[mykonian]

Games where mafia can become town are

bad.

not normal

[Empking's Alt]

Games where mafia can become town are bad and not normal

[farside22]

I'm thinking for the next round of games to sign up for to do

Carbon 14

again. I found the game well balance and many enjoyed playing (well except those killed early.)
Discussion on the game is welcomed.

[Empking]

I'm thinking for the next round of games to sign up for to do

Carbon 14

again. I found the game well balance and many enjoyed playing (well except those killed early.)
Discussion on the game is welcomed.

Good Posting.

[PokerFace]

Clever name goes here

2 Scum
1 Recruiting mason
6 Townies

Scum & masons each get a quicktopic, recruiting mason dies if he targets scum, recruiting is not compulsory.
I was considering putting a watcher/night watchman in there, but wasn't sure if it was necessary... thoughts?

This looks pretty cool on principle

Is it balanced and has it been

seconded

yet?

[Empking]

2 Scum
1 Cult
6 Townies

is imbalanced towards cult so I can't see this set up being balanced.

[farside22]

I'm thinking for the next round of games to sign up for to do

Carbon 14

again. I found the game well balance and many enjoyed playing (well except those killed early.)
Discussion on the game is welcomed.

Also saw this game getting 2 or three noms:

Two of Four b9

So again thoughts on both games. Yes or no. Problems or disagreement?

[Lord Gurgi]

I'm thinking for the next round of games to sign up for to do

Carbon 14

again. I found the game well balance and many enjoyed playing (well except those killed early.)
Discussion on the game is welcomed.

Also saw this game getting 2 or three noms:

Two of Four b9

So again thoughts on both games. Yes or no. Problems or disagreement?

Carbon-14: Seems that massclaim is the best thing to do after nolynch day one. That should keep the town in confirmed players for the rest of the game. It is important that there is no discussion day one, though.

24B9: I don't really see the purpose. It seems like the setup was designed to make a setup that has both cop and doc in a non-broken way. There's no particularly bad element, though it seems like other setups would be better run in its place.

[farside22]

I'm thinking for the next round of games to sign up for to do

Carbon 14

again. I found the game well balance and many enjoyed playing (well except those killed early.)
Discussion on the game is welcomed.

Also saw this game getting 2 or three noms:

Two of Four b9

So again thoughts on both games. Yes or no. Problems or disagreement?

Carbon-14: Seems that massclaim is the best thing to do after nolynch day one. That should keep the town in confirmed players for the rest of the game. It is important that there is no discussion day one, though.

This depends on many factors.
Who did the mafia kill that night 1? Counter claiming is the bomb thing to do as scum or claiming said role first.

[Lord Gurgi]

I'm thinking for the next round of games to sign up for to do

Carbon 14

again. I found the game well balance and many enjoyed playing (well except those killed early.)
Discussion on the game is welcomed.

Also saw this game getting 2 or three noms:

Two of Four b9

So again thoughts on both games. Yes or no. Problems or disagreement?

Carbon-14: Seems that massclaim is the best thing to do after nolynch day one. That should keep the town in confirmed players for the rest of the game. It is important that there is no discussion day one, though.

This depends on many factors.
Who did the mafia kill that night 1? Counter claiming is the bomb thing to do as scum or claiming said role first.

No lynch without discussion is the best way to preserve both of the investigators. Counterclaiming assures that the scum dies. Then it's just a witch hunt for the last scum. I should also say that whatever happens, counterclaiming is only a good idea for the mafia if there are 5 alive.

[mykonian]

Clever name goes here

2 Scum
1 Recruiting mason
6 Townies

Scum & masons each get a quicktopic, recruiting mason dies if he targets scum, recruiting is not compulsory.
I was considering putting a watcher/night watchman in there, but wasn't sure if it was necessary... thoughts?

This looks pretty cool on principle

Is it balanced and has it been

seconded

yet?

I've played something like this before, and it is hard enough with only one scum. I think town will lose quite often by misrecruiting.

[ac1983fan]

Clever name goes here

2 Scum
1 Recruiting mason
6 Townies

Scum & masons each get a quicktopic, recruiting mason dies if he targets scum, recruiting is not compulsory.
I was considering putting a watcher/night watchman in there, but wasn't sure if it was necessary... thoughts?

This looks pretty cool on principle

Is it balanced and has it been

seconded

yet?

Well, actually I took thok's idea into consideration and thought up the following revision:

Clever Name Mafia

2 Scum
1 Recruiting Mason
6 townies

Mafia can nighttalk, Masons

cannot

nighttalk, however, all masons are informed when a new mason joins the group. Daystart.

I don't think it should be actually nominated yet, unless other people think it's is well-balanced.

[Adel]

I'm thinking for the next round of games to sign up for to do

Carbon 14

again. I found the game well balance and many enjoyed playing (well except those killed early.)
Discussion on the game is welcomed.

Also saw this game getting 2 or three noms:

Two of Four b9

So again thoughts on both games. Yes or no. Problems or disagreement?

Carbon-14: Seems that massclaim is the best thing to do after nolynch day one. That should keep the town in confirmed players for the rest of the game. It is important that there is no discussion day one, though.

This depends on many factors.
Who did the mafia kill that night 1? Counter claiming is the bomb thing to do as scum or claiming said role first.

No lynch without discussion is the best way to preserve both of the investigators. Counterclaiming assures that the scum dies. Then it's just a witch hunt for the last scum. I should also say that whatever happens, counterclaiming is only a good idea for the mafia if there are 5 alive.

I figured that the best town tactic is:
no lynch -> cop claim if guilty Else hypocop + no lynch again