[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[Caboose]

Second: Jungle Republic

[shaft.ed]

Third

[Korts]

For reference: do nominated setups now go to the certification group for review?

[shaft.ed]

For reference: do nominated setups now go to the certification group for review?

I think there's eventually going to be two threads. Right now we're just in limbo I guess.

[mith]

Yeah, I suppose you may as well keep nominating things here and farside can grab setups as she has been until we settle on some system over in the certification thread.

[Seraphim]

Polygamist Mafia

4 Mafia Lover Goons
8 Lovers

Mod Notes: Nightless
The Mafia are all lovers together; if one dies, they all die.
The rest of the town is paired up as lovers.

Saw this on the wiki. Looks interesting.

[ortolan]

^^ I like that one, very very simple too

mafia have 0.4 odds of winning, town 0.6 by random lynching

that's not that unbalanced compared to other standard setups is it?

I can't help but feel in practice unless mafia played really well it'd be pretty easy to out them. And do the townies know who their lovers are?

[Seraphim]

Yes, they would.

It's not as simple as it would appear. The game ends on Day 2, no matter what. Two mislynches = scum win and one correct lynch = scum win. So, unless no lynch is voted for at some point(which is stupid, because it's nightless), the game ends at day 2.

I looked at the previous game played of this and saw that it ended in a town win on day 2. But it was a long couple of days. I think with good scum, it could be a very interesting game.

[Seraphim]

Question: If this set-up runs, should the scum be able to daytalk?

[ortolan]

Yes I think so because the town have greater odds of winning as it is.

[ac1983fan]

Insanity Runs amok

2 Mafia Goons
1 Insane Cop (Paranoid)
1 Insane Cop (Naïve)
1 Insane Cop (Random)
1 Insane Cop (Standard Insane)
1 Insane Cop (Sane but thinks he's insane)
1 Psychiatrist

The psychiatrist turns insane cops sane as a night choice. The Insane cops don't know what type of insanity they have. The psychiatrist gets a N0 head start (no killing or investigating N0). The psychiatrist also dies if (s)he targets a mafia.
It's kind of like dethy, but with a twist and more players.

[Seraphim]

Wow. Talk about a bastard mod's paradise.

[Adel]

Yes I think so because the town have greater odds of winning as it is.

Yes, all lovers are able to daytalk. The game is the same game as Lovers (2 mafia lovers, 4 townies) except with hydra instead of single players.

Lovers was run three times (Open 97, 102, 113) and Polygamist was run three times (Open 76, 83, 88).

I think either game is great for improving your endgame play.

A similar game is Lovers Multiball, which was run as open 86.

[Seraphim]

Alright then.

Polygamist Mafia

4 Mafia Lover Goons
8 Town Lovers

Mod Notes:
Nightless
All four goons are lovers, so they die together.
Each town lover is paired with another town lover. Each pair dies together.
All lover teams can daytalk outside of the thread.

[Empking]

^^ I like that one, very very simple too

mafia have 0.4 odds of winning, town 0.6 by random lynching

that's not that unbalanced compared to other standard setups is it?
?

No, that's horribly imbalanced.

Nominate: Yos's & Gurgi's 4P

1 SK with RB that can be used in addition to kill
1 Vigilante
2 Townies

Open, day Start, compulsory lynches.

[Adel]

Empking, why do you think it is "horribly unbalanced"? What range of EV do you think defines "balanced"? At which point does an unbalanced setup become "horribly unbalanced"?

~~~


I don't think it is a part of the canonical definition, but in my book a "normal" game requires a scum faction with at least two players. At the very least

Yos's & Gurgi's 4P

needs a better name.

[Empking]

If town has higher than 50% win chance, that's horribly imbalanced. I'd say if they have 45-50 its imbalanced.

Yeah, I just realized that b

Withdraw Nomination

[ortolan]

Is

a 40% chance of winning for mafia imbalanced? (open question)

If town has higher than 50% win chance, that's horribly imbalanced. I'd say if they have 45-50 its imbalanced.

Is there any basis for this? I'm genuinely curious (another open question). It seems to presuppose the deductive power of the town is in general greater than the power of scum to manipulate above the base odds (something that is not at all evidenced by games I've played in).

[Empking]

To answer your first question. Only if there is only two factions.

If town has higher than 50% then they can random play and more likely than not win.

If scum have 60% chance to win then town can do something about it. If town does scum can't.

[Crazy]

Well, the town's chances of lynching scum Day 1 is 1/3.
The chance of lynching scum Day 2 is 2/5.

So even if when it all balances out it's in the town's favor for random lynching, it never is actually practical to do so.

As well, I've noticed that the setup gives scum a lot of the control over the vote.

Day 1 = 7 to lynch (only 8 town)
Day 2 = 6 to lynch (only 6 town)

That should help the scum in the long run.

[Korts]

Insanity Runs amok

2 Mafia Goons
1 Insane Cop (Paranoid)
1 Insane Cop (Naïve)
1 Insane Cop (Random)
1 Insane Cop (Standard Insane)
1 Insane Cop (Sane but thinks he's insane)
1 Psychiatrist

The psychiatrist turns insane cops sane as a night choice. The Insane cops don't know what type of insanity they have. The psychiatrist gets a N0 head start (no killing or investigating N0). The psychiatrist also dies if (s)he targets a mafia.
It's kind of like dethy, but with a twist and more players.

cop result claim and psychiatrist hypoclaim for following nights, and then the same strategy as dethy. It's more a logic game than a game of mafia.

Also, "random" is too hard to find and only disrupts play IMO.

[mykonian]

psychiatrist makes it a bit swingy, doesn't it?

[mith]

If town has higher than 50% then they can random play and more likely than not win.

This is similar to shaft.ed's statement on the previous page (in the other direction). Just because the town *can* do better than 50% by playing random

doesn't mean they should play random

. We assume that the town can scumhunt better-than-random (and we have to, in order for Mafia to be worthwhile), and that assumption doesn't magically go away for games where the town is favored in the EV.

If I gave you a weighted coin that came up heads 60% of the time when flipped, and then told you that I'll give you a dollar if the coin is showing heads the next time it is on the floor, would you flip it? No, you'd set it down on the floor heads-up and take your dollar 100% of the time.

There are very few Mafia games that are perfectly balanced (whatever you consider that perfect balanced to be, whether the Town gets 50%, 40%, 35%, whatever), but games that are unbalanced to either side can still be playable (you could play a game where the scum is only expected to win 10% if you wanted, it would just be that much more impressive when scum actually pulled it off).

[Empking]

Mith: If perfect scum lose more often than they win, that game is broken.

[mith]

You don't seem to understand what "broken" means. Broken means that there is an optimal strategy for either side that "breaks" the game - turns it into a different game ("Outguess the Mod after Massclaim", or "Cop Claim + Protect + No Lynch", for example). Broken does not say anything about the chances either side has of winning.