[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[Empking]

Do you mean I don't know what "broken" means in the context of mafia or just in general.

I use it (and my quick search seems to agree with me) as something (such as a group or role) that if you're not it and you're opponent is you'll lose.

[shaft.ed]

Emp, what mith is saying is a set up is broken when an optimized preset strategy exixst that doesn't involve playing mafia.

[Empking]

Emp, what mith is saying is a set up is broken when an optimized preset strategy exixst that doesn't involve playing mafia.

Mith is wrong.

Mith's definition is stupid as any game could be played in a way that's not mafia. So every game is broken. So I was right.

[Thok]

Mith's definition is stupid as any game could be played in a way that's not mafia. So every game is broken. So I was right.

You're missing the words "optimized" or "optimal". The point is that there's no reason to play any other way because it lowers the chance of winning.

[shaft.ed]

Mith's definition is stupid as any game could be played in a way that's not mafia. So every game is broken. So I was right.

You're missing the words "optimized" or "optimal". The point is that there's no reason to play any other way because it lowers the chance of winning.

this

[Empking]

If Mith is right then the Texas Justice method isn't broken because its random instead of scum hunting, right?

[Seraphim]

Anything that's broken means that there's an optimal way to win and that using any other method of play is stupid and lowers the chance of winning. For example, Follow-the-Cop. Cop claims immediately. Doc protects him every night. Town gets free investigations until they find scum.

[Empking]

Sera: So every game is broken because there is always an optimum way of winning.

[Seraphim]

Not true. Take the newbie game for example: there are four possible set-ups. The town doesn't know which set-up is in play. The scum, the doctor, or the cop only know that there are two possible set-ups from which to go from.

So, if the Cop gets a guilty, should the Cop claim immediately even when there's two scum left? If the sacrifice of the cop worth the dead scum? Should the scum counterclaim? It depends on who is playing what the optimal strategy is. A broken game is a game where one side can use a breaking strategy to end the game for their side. The game isn't fun because there's no way for the other side to win due to the breaking strategy.

[Thok]

If Mith is right then the Texas Justice method isn't broken because its random instead of scum hunting, right?

The only random part is the pairing up. If you really want, I can make that not random by making the algorithm for pairing up concrete and saying that you should always pair the 1st, 3rd, 5th, ... player on the list with the 2nd, 4th, 6th, ... player respectively.

Sera: So every game is broken because there is always an optimum way of winning.

You've also seemed to have missed the "boring and not mafia" part of the definition.

Basically, the real point is that mafia is about discussion (asking question, presenting cases and persuading your fellow players), and the broken strategies don't involved discussion.

[Empking]

Sera: Just because we don't know the strategy (and by "we", I mean you and I, I'm pretty sure Mith knows it) doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Thok: That's still worse that scum hunting.

I was responding to Sera's definition. Where was "boring and not mafia"?

[Thok]

Thok: That's still worse that scum hunting.

If you're saying that the game isn't broken because the Texas Justice strategy doesn't work as well as scum hunting for that set up, then I agree (because the Texas Justice method only gives a 25% chance of winning in that set up.)

I thought you were saying that the process wasn't optimal because it's random.

I was responding to Sera's definition. Where was "boring and not mafia"?

Not mafia was part of mith's definition. Boring was an addition of my own: the problem with broken games are not they aren't balanced (if that was the case then nobody would want to play SK), but because they stop being interesting because there's much less actual play involved.

The difference is between "Lynch the person the cop says is scum each day" and "Lynch the person that seems the scummiest after 3-7 pages of discussion." One of these requires skill and the other requires one person to remember to do a night action each night and the rest of the people to vote what that person says.

[Xylthixlm]

Based on further calculations and observations, I think Rebels in the Palace might be actually good if it had three fewer rebels and one fewer guard...

RitP 8

1 King (wins when King + guards >= rebels)
2 guards (know who King is, win when King + guards >= rebels)
5 rebels (win when King is dead)

This has an EV of 56% for the king+guards and 44% for the rebels.

[shaft.ed]

Was reading over the history of the vengeful set up and got to wondering about a 2 v 5 game where the player lynched D1 gets a vengeful kill regardless of alignment and there is no GF. Scum have no NK and wins in a tie.

This means D2 opens with either:
1 v 4 (scum has to survive three lynches)
or
2 v 3 (scum has to survive one lynch, or lose a partner and then survive two lynches)

estimated EV <60 for town and >40 for scum.

Not sure if this has been run or not.

[mith]

Empking, obviously "game-breaking strategy" is going to have a different meaning depending on what game you're talking about. But let me rephrase my previous post:

You don't seem to understand how "broken" has traditionally been used in the context of Mafia.

I'm not sure how I can make it any clearer, though, if you don't understand it after all the attempts that have been made to explain it.

[ortolan]

Where is the "list" of "approved" open setups currently? I want to see if an idea I had has already been thought of.

[ortolan]

Anyhow I'm gonna post, if it's a repeat then sue me:

I have an idea for a setup spurred by discussion of lovers which is so simple/obvious I'm sure it's been used/discussed extensively before but I'm unsure how to search for previous setups. Anyhow, in case it hasn't:

True Love

Nightless

8 Players- 2 Mafia, 6 Townies

4 lover pairs.

It is known the configuration of lovers is:

1 townie-1 townie
1 townie-1 townie
1 townie-1 scum
1 townie-1 scum

Everyone is aware of who is paired with whom. Daytalking is allowed between both lovers and scum.

This has exactly 50% odds of being won by either town or scum. Sounds awesome to me.

[Adel]

Where is the "list" of "approved" open setups currently? I want to see if an idea I had has already been thought of.

we aren't done yet, but it currently looks like the first round will include
C9
One of four variations, randomly chosen:

• * 1 Cop, 1 Doc, 2 Mafia, 3 Townies;
  * 1 Cop, 2 Mafia, 4 Townies
  * 1 Doc, 2 Mafia, 4 Townies
  * 2 Mafia, 5 Townies

F11
It consists of four variations, chosen at random

• * 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 1 Sane Cop, 1 Doctor, 5 Townies.
  * 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 7 Townies.
  * 2 Mafia Goons, 1 Sane Cop, 6 Townies.
  * 2 Mafia Goons, 1 Doctor, 6 Townies.

Pie E7

• * 1 Mafia Goon
  * 1 Mafia Roleblocker (for balance reasons, the Roleblocker should also be able to nightkill even if the Goon is dead)
  * 1 Sane Cop
  * 1 Doctor
  * 3 Townies

Vengeful 5P

• * 1 Godfather
  * 1 Mafia Goon
  * 3 Vengeful townies
  Nightless

Lovers Mafia (no wiki page yet)

• * 2 Mafia Lovers
  * 4 Townies
  Nightless

Near-Vanilla

• * 3 Mafia
  * 1 Doctor
  * 1 Jailkeeper
  * 8 Townies

the full list of the previously run games (some of which are not balanced) can be found at http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... &&start=43
but you would have to dig through Little Italy and New York or the "Open Setup Ideas and Discussion" threads to find the specific setups -- some of them are on the wiki.

[Adel]

I'm quite sure that it hasn't been suggested before.

how would you write the role PM and win condition for the scum players?

[ortolan]

I'll just commit for the time being:

Here is an example:

You are ortolan, mafia

Your partner in crime is Adel. You may talk with him/her at any time.

Your lover is mith. [additionally all the lover pairings are listed in the mod's opening post anyhow]. You may talk with him at any time.

You win when the number of living mafia players outnumbers or is equal to the number of living town players.

[Crazy]

What is night-talk in a Nightless game?

[Empking's Alt]

Empking, obviously "game-breaking strategy" is going to have a different meaning depending on what game you're talking about. But let me rephrase my previous post:

You don't seem to understand how "broken" has traditionally been used in the context of Mafia.

I'm not sure how I can make it any clearer, though, if you don't understand it after all the attempts that have been made to explain it.

I actually understand it, I had just been on the the Sirlin site when I said broken.

Wow, Farside was a lot bretter at picking set ups than Adel.

[Korts]

Wow, Farside was a lot bretter at picking set ups than Adel.

The setups Adel listed are those that the Open Certification Group has collectively acknowledged as balanced and not in need of a review.

These are not Adel's choices; we have flagged setups that potentially need more discussion or work, and will constantly be adding approved setups to the list.

[Xylthixlm]

A game with a dominant strategy is called a "puzzle". If you know the dominant strategy, it's a solved puzzle.

[ortolan]

Good point Crazy

Daytalking for all then.