Mini 183: Quick and the Dead - Town Wins!
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I think I'm against mass claims for now. There may be a time when it's a good idea, but it will probably end up hurting us without giving us much gain in return. Plus, with what MGM has hinted at, we can't really be sure we'll get
Okay, I see what you were saying, Shadow. That's a good point. I've been thinking about this, and I'm not sure there's a great way of organizing these things. For example, one kind of easy idea would be: Let's pick someone we know for sure is innocent, say from a cop investigation. We could agree that we go down the line having everyone duel with him and intentionally losing as per the Shadow's suggestion. Unfortunately, this doesn't work...if scum ever have equal numbers, they just win the duel and take a majority, and hence the game. Nonetheless, there may be a way of tweaking things to make it work...for example, if we ever knew like
Anyway, that's just food for thought.
Zippy, if you have questions that don't pertain to the game, feel free to PM me, the mod, or any of the experienced players with questions.
Cam
anything
out of it.Okay, I see what you were saying, Shadow. That's a good point. I've been thinking about this, and I'm not sure there's a great way of organizing these things. For example, one kind of easy idea would be: Let's pick someone we know for sure is innocent, say from a cop investigation. We could agree that we go down the line having everyone duel with him and intentionally losing as per the Shadow's suggestion. Unfortunately, this doesn't work...if scum ever have equal numbers, they just win the duel and take a majority, and hence the game. Nonetheless, there may be a way of tweaking things to make it work...for example, if we ever knew like
four
confirmed innocents, we just leave them out of the dueling pool, and the mafia would never get a majority. Unfortunately, getting 4 confirmed innocents is usually not that easy...Anyway, that's just food for thought.
Zippy, if you have questions that don't pertain to the game, feel free to PM me, the mod, or any of the experienced players with questions.
Cam
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Hi all.
I will random
Two issues leap out at me as things we need to consider from the start.
Firstly, how the duel resolution works. Mathcam referred to that earlier in connection with the death scene. RPS obviously implies an equal chance to win (with the multiple choices even implying that ties dont go one way or the other).
The description of cort implies differently. Further my role at least contains a general statement as to my duelling ability (not in game mechanics but generally how good i am).
Im interested if others have a similar description. I would have thought that if peoples duelling abilities were uneven we would each have a general statement of a similar nature.
Can people confirm this without quoting their pm of course and without stating what their ability is if it is stated. If there are different grades of duelling ability or a hierarchy I dont think we should indicate what that is (at least for now) as those with good ability may well be targeted at night with the weak duellers challenged.
Secondly, I can only presume at this point that the scum can initiate duels like the rest of us. If we have a cop reveal and indicate a scum or even if we have a near lynching vote on a scum we are going to have to be prepared for the possibility that the scum will simply try and duel as many people as they can. Again I can only presume that you cant interrupt a duel by going to night. At the least I would expect the scum to duel the cop. While there might be some benefit from that in the sense that we might confirm some innocents (people challenged by the scum) but theres nothing to stop the scum having perhaps killed someone, duel one of their scum buddies and intentionally lose to try and confirm their partner.
This concerns me if we have a typical allocation of town/scum as each scum might well take a person or two down with them.
As to the mass claim idea im against it for now. Im only very vaguely aware of the theme and for the reasons stated above we need to be even more vigilant about outing our power roles than we would be usually.
Thoughts?
I will random
vote puzzle
.Two issues leap out at me as things we need to consider from the start.
Firstly, how the duel resolution works. Mathcam referred to that earlier in connection with the death scene. RPS obviously implies an equal chance to win (with the multiple choices even implying that ties dont go one way or the other).
The description of cort implies differently. Further my role at least contains a general statement as to my duelling ability (not in game mechanics but generally how good i am).
Im interested if others have a similar description. I would have thought that if peoples duelling abilities were uneven we would each have a general statement of a similar nature.
Can people confirm this without quoting their pm of course and without stating what their ability is if it is stated. If there are different grades of duelling ability or a hierarchy I dont think we should indicate what that is (at least for now) as those with good ability may well be targeted at night with the weak duellers challenged.
Secondly, I can only presume at this point that the scum can initiate duels like the rest of us. If we have a cop reveal and indicate a scum or even if we have a near lynching vote on a scum we are going to have to be prepared for the possibility that the scum will simply try and duel as many people as they can. Again I can only presume that you cant interrupt a duel by going to night. At the least I would expect the scum to duel the cop. While there might be some benefit from that in the sense that we might confirm some innocents (people challenged by the scum) but theres nothing to stop the scum having perhaps killed someone, duel one of their scum buddies and intentionally lose to try and confirm their partner.
This concerns me if we have a typical allocation of town/scum as each scum might well take a person or two down with them.
As to the mass claim idea im against it for now. Im only very vaguely aware of the theme and for the reasons stated above we need to be even more vigilant about outing our power roles than we would be usually.
Thoughts?
Well, I'm back. Looks like there are several questions that need clarifying. Like how many duels a person can have in one day. Also, can a person get lynched after he challenges someone, but before it gets accepted? The mafia could really abuse the duel otherwise, as noted above.
FOS to Mgm: my initial take on his remark was that he's got a "bad guy" role. Does this make him mafia? No. But I would be very interested in hearing if anyone does have a role that was a villain in the movie, but is a "townie" in this game. You don't even have to say who your role is, just whether it was a villain. If no one steps up to say they have a villain role, then I would be much more in favor of a mass name claim. Leaves the mafia with few outs (not too many roles in the movie after all). Of course they could try to claim a generic role, but there are risks in that as well--only true townies will know the way a generic role is described.
I don't have a villain role btw.
(also, FOS to anyone who cops out and says they haven't seen the movie and don't "know" if their role was a villain in it)
FOS to Mgm: my initial take on his remark was that he's got a "bad guy" role. Does this make him mafia? No. But I would be very interested in hearing if anyone does have a role that was a villain in the movie, but is a "townie" in this game. You don't even have to say who your role is, just whether it was a villain. If no one steps up to say they have a villain role, then I would be much more in favor of a mass name claim. Leaves the mafia with few outs (not too many roles in the movie after all). Of course they could try to claim a generic role, but there are risks in that as well--only true townies will know the way a generic role is described.
I don't have a villain role btw.
(also, FOS to anyone who cops out and says they haven't seen the movie and don't "know" if their role was a villain in it)
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Actually, that reinforces the possibility to ask shady characters to fight one another. They won't be able to break all hells loose in reprisal.
I suggest that if at some point we have two suspects without enough way to clear them, we ask them to challenge each other. At the very least, even if the loser turns out to be a townie, we don't need to lose one night investigating him anymore and can investigate the winner. It's a good way to accelerate the rythm and diminish the number of possible scums beyond the mafia's night kill abilities.
The drawback is that with such a set-up, I'd bet that we've got a Godfather, probably Hebor.
I think everyone should answer Axelrod's question. I have already more or less, but to clarify, I am indeed not a villain from the movie.
I suggest that if at some point we have two suspects without enough way to clear them, we ask them to challenge each other. At the very least, even if the loser turns out to be a townie, we don't need to lose one night investigating him anymore and can investigate the winner. It's a good way to accelerate the rythm and diminish the number of possible scums beyond the mafia's night kill abilities.
The drawback is that with such a set-up, I'd bet that we've got a Godfather, probably Hebor.
I think everyone should answer Axelrod's question. I have already more or less, but to clarify, I am indeed not a villain from the movie.
For now, I'll ask Thoth to come up with reasons why I should be voting for him, and I'd like him to respond to those.
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I'm positive that any real townies will know I'm innocent as soon as I claim. I just don't want a mass claim to reveal this info to the mafia. The fail safe I talked about earlier is that scum can claim that role as soon as a real townie claims it.Axelrod wrote:FOS to Mgm: my initial take on his remark was that he's got a "bad guy" role. Does this make him mafia? No. But I would be very interested in hearing if anyone does have a role that was a villain in the movie, but is a "townie" in this game. You don't even have to say who your role is, just whether it was a villain. If no one steps up to say they have a villain role, then I would be much more in favor of a mass name claim. Leaves the mafia with few outs (not too many roles in the movie after all). Of course they could try to claim a generic role, but there are risks in that as well--only true townies will know the way a generic role is described.
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In which case we can ask all claimers to duel each other.Mgm wrote:I'm positive that any real townies will know I'm innocent as soon as I claim. I just don't want a mass claim to reveal this info to the mafia. The fail safe I talked about earlier is that scum can claim that role as soon as a real townie claims it.Axelrod wrote:FOS to Mgm: my initial take on his remark was that he's got a "bad guy" role. Does this make him mafia? No. But I would be very interested in hearing if anyone does have a role that was a villain in the movie, but is a "townie" in this game. You don't even have to say who your role is, just whether it was a villain. If no one steps up to say they have a villain role, then I would be much more in favor of a mass name claim. Leaves the mafia with few outs (not too many roles in the movie after all). Of course they could try to claim a generic role, but there are risks in that as well--only true townies will know the way a generic role is described.
You just made a point in favor of mass role-claim, whereas you're saying to be against it. I may misunderstand this, but for the time being, I think it deserves a
FOS MGM
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We still don't know if scum can influence the outcome of a duel.
I'm not about to try to find out with a mass townie slaughter.
What if the scum decide not to claim townie and let all townies kill each other?
I stand by my point that this early in the game a mass claim won't help the town.
I'm not about to try to find out with a mass townie slaughter.
What if the scum decide not to claim townie and let all townies kill each other?
I stand by my point that this early in the game a mass claim won't help the town.
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If scums had too much of an advantage in duels, they would anyway go for it. Saying nothing won't prevent any mass townie slaughter. Right now, they are the only ones who know about it and therefore have a better understanding of the duels than us. I'd rather compensate by having the town choose their duel targets for them as much as possible.
The advantage of having double-claimers duel is that if the loser ends up a townie, then the winner will look VERY scummy.
Why would townies kill each other ? Why would they claim another townie's role ?
I was willing to listen to your arguments, but I see less and less sense in them. Additionally, your "knowledge" that there is a safeguard appears to be just fake.
The advantage of having double-claimers duel is that if the loser ends up a townie, then the winner will look VERY scummy.
Why would townies kill each other ? Why would they claim another townie's role ?
I was willing to listen to your arguments, but I see less and less sense in them. Additionally, your "knowledge" that there is a safeguard appears to be just fake.
Unvote Coron
, Vote MGM
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The townie dead was Cort, the Preacher (if I recall the movie correctly, he was in the semifinals against the girl, and they faked the duel), and in his death description it says he was very talented at dueling. This means there are some townies who are good at dueling.
At this point, I think some characters (both in mafia and town) have some advantages at dueling. Perhaps that means that, in case of a tie in the first RPS choice they win; or something like that.
But I believe the duels are not too one-sided in favor of the mafia, because that would make the game very hard for the town.
At this point, I think some characters (both in mafia and town) have some advantages at dueling. Perhaps that means that, in case of a tie in the first RPS choice they win; or something like that.
But I believe the duels are not too one-sided in favor of the mafia, because that would make the game very hard for the town.
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FOS: Mgm (again) I take it that you are now claiming some kind of "generic" role, i.e. NOT a character from the movie? This is how you "know" there is a failsafe against a mass name-claim? And you don't want to say because once you reveal yours then the mafia will be able to copy it? Have I got that right?
If that's not right, please clarify. If it is right, it doesn't change much. Fact is, even if there are "generic" roles that the mafia can try to hide as, it is still greatly to the town's advantage to clear as many people as possible from being mafia. And if everyone with a "name" role comes out (assuming there are a few) and they do not get counter-claimed, then they are looking much better than folks in generic type roles (assuming for the moment that there are no Mafia who have roles that were not Villains in the movie.)
Anyway, if anyone else wants to come out and claim to have a "generic" type role (i.e. not a named character from the movie) you can do that also. Don't reveal specifically what the role is called, but you can just say it's not a named character form the movie. Maybe we can divide into groups claiming to be roles from the movie and groups claiming "other."
If that's not right, please clarify. If it is right, it doesn't change much. Fact is, even if there are "generic" roles that the mafia can try to hide as, it is still greatly to the town's advantage to clear as many people as possible from being mafia. And if everyone with a "name" role comes out (assuming there are a few) and they do not get counter-claimed, then they are looking much better than folks in generic type roles (assuming for the moment that there are no Mafia who have roles that were not Villains in the movie.)
Anyway, if anyone else wants to come out and claim to have a "generic" type role (i.e. not a named character from the movie) you can do that also. Don't reveal specifically what the role is called, but you can just say it's not a named character form the movie. Maybe we can divide into groups claiming to be roles from the movie and groups claiming "other."
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Humm. I think overall I agree that name claiming at the moment would be a bad idea. But there's got to be a way we can work this duel thing to our advantage. I'll admit, I'm not entirely sure at the moment how. Mainly because we don't know if there are any variables in dueling. Looking up the film, it appears Cort was the best, or one of the two best maybe. Anyhow, I'm not sure at the moment. I'll get back to you.
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i'm going to
vote: Puzzle
for now...I think MGM has some very good points, at least of the ones I can see. Obviously, I don't know anything about this "failsafe", but I agree with the rest of his points, becuase they make sense. However, I think Puzzle has grossly overreacted to MGM's posts. He may not agree with the idea behind them, but that's no good reason to put a vote on him. Also, since you seem to think mass role-claiming is a good thing, what do you propose we do once we out a doc claim? At that point, you've just sentenced the doc to death.Permanent V/LA.
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Axelrod wrote:FOS: Mgm (again) I take it that you are now claiming some kind of "generic" role, i.e. NOT a character from the movie? This is how you "know" there is a failsafe against a mass name-claim? And you don't want to say because once you reveal yours then the mafia will be able to copy it? Have I got that right?
Who says the generic role isn't from the movie? Also, assuming "that there are no Mafia who have roles that were not Villains in the movie" isn't a smart thing to do. What about GFs and the like?Axelrod wrote:And if everyone with a "name" role comes out (assuming there are a few) and they do not get counter-claimed, then they are looking much better than folks in generic type roles (assuming for the moment that there are no Mafia who have roles that were not Villains in the movie.)
Anyway, if anyone else wants to come out and claim to have a "generic" type role (i.e. not a named character from the movie) you can do that also. Don't reveal specifically what the role is called, but you can just say it's not a named character form the movie. Maybe we can divide into groups claiming to be roles from the movie and groups claiming "other."
BTW, I'm not the only one opposing a mass claim. Why is it that you're FOSsing me when there's people that seem to agree with me?
FOS:Axelrod
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