California Trilogy: City of Angels - On Camera (Game Over)

[zu_Faul]

Ahh, Talilan uses the "scum never make mistakes" defence.

Claim: Assistant Producer. It appears to be the time for that. Yeah, I made some pretty bad choices. Also at first I did not get the thing about the stuntman role, and feared it would be absolutely terrible to give scum the job. Then I wanted to give the role to a player, but that player already had a role which I missed and then deadline was almost over. I made GAB Assistant Director, because before the Gaspar flip I was pretty sure she was town. Afterwards I regretted it. Any more questions?

I think scum are Talilan + [Vp Baltar, Mighty Orbots], but I'll reread first. There is so much again Talilanst just from the top of my head though. Just how badly she chose the last two scenes (it were both, right?) and how GAB conveniently kept them around. And most of the "but I attacked Thok/GAB!" is negligible as there were so many scum and so few to take into endgame.

Tags removed. Use bold only for voting. - Mod

[VP Baltar]

Talilan did you fully explain your offstage choices for the last scene somewhere? I may be missing it, so if you did please direct me to the post number. If not, I'd like to know what you thoughts were and why you put two players you thought scummy offstage with obv-town SL.

[Thesp]

Just a quick note to confirm that I'm not the Assistant Producer. (I'm guessing VP Baltar isn't based on his post.)

I'll try to reconstruct what I have a bit later when I get home tonight, given the restrictive tags allowed in the game.

[Talilan]

Ahh, Talilan uses the "scum never make mistakes" defence.

Please clarify what you mean. This isn't the "scum never make slips" defence, it's the "scum would know not to make themselves look scummy" defence, and it's also the "well, it would have been easier just to sacrifice ourselves last scene". I wasn't paying that much attention to the game at the time but no-one suspected DGB and Thok were scum together AFAIK.

[Talilan]

oh and zu_Faul was obv the AP. When I was re-reading the other day Panzer was obv-town and left a rather obvious breadcrumb or two.

I still don't understand why Thesp was pushing for the claim earlier

- ortolan

[Talilan]

What would people have objected to, at the time, about leaving DGB/Thok/Shadowlurker off-stage?

[Mighty Orbots]

Claim: Assistant Producer.

Before we do anything else, hewitt do you counter?

[VP Baltar]

before we do anything else, hewitt are you playing this game?

[Thesp]

oh and zu_Faul was obv the AP. When I was re-reading the other day Panzer was obv-town and left a rather obvious breadcrumb or two.

I agree that the status of his supposed APness was overt. What did he say or do that made you think he was "obvtown"? I'm asking because not only have you been consistently wrong for much of the game, you've asserted your wrongness at times as though what you thought was plainly evident and obvious. When it turns out you have been consistently wrong about significant things for much of the game, your later reaction is not to show trepidation or uncertainty at your conclusions based on this history (one breakdown-moment after Gaspar's lynch notwithstanding), but instead has been to make bald-faced assertions of things in a similar manner as before. Moreover, when other people express any degree of uncertainty, your approach has been to inadvertently(?) belittle this by proclaiming quite proudly that such things are seemingly obvious.

What was it that Panzerjager and/or zu_Faul did or said that made it obvious to you that he was town?

before we do anything else, hewitt are you playing this game?

This is an excellent question.

[Talilan]

VP Baltar, again I'm disagreeing with you. It's not possible for hydras to always agree. I agree it is desirable that they agree, but also desirable is someone reading the thread rather than asking me to repeat myself. We can't always have what we want though.

The reasoning (that I posted in our QT) was:
Both info broadcasting roles (Thesp & MO) are onstage, but SL can stunt and G&B can fire as a signal. Risk is that one of them is advocate and we lose that method of communication.
Is Thok, SL and Goofballs a good group to leave offstage? Thok & Goofballs are big question marks in the game. If they don't want to lynch one of them, SL can stunt a suspicious person offstage. If SL is made advocate, Hewitt will be offstage. At least one of those 3 was lying onstage yesterday.

I got to thinking that I HAD to go off the only concrete thing I knew, and that was that one of Thok, DGB, OR both you and Hewitt lied last scene. I had to dismiss the you/Hewitt thing as least likely. That left DGB and Thok... I was sure one was scum. I hoped that leaving them offstage, the right one would get lynched. I did consider that two of the three could be scum, but did not think that THOSE particular players would blatantly lynch and give themselves away before endgame because they were the question mark players, not the most scummy players, ya know?

I was also trying to figure out the likelihood of SL being made the advocate. I thought the scum might do this so he couldn't stunt someone offstage to be lynched. If SL was made advocate and bumped onstage, Hewitt would have been left offstage. There were a lot off possibilities to think about.

I was on the hunt for the onstage liar (Thok or DGB) and had to leave SL off for stunt switching. I thought SL might stunt you or Hewitt off if the three couldn't agree who to lynch.

~Tal

[Talilan]

The above quotes are my reasoning for the onstage/offstage choices, if that wasn't clear.

I actually do not feel that bad about how the lynch last scene went down. We uncovered 2 scum. We know the alignments of ALL players not in endgame. We actually did OK.

At the moment I'm tired, got no fight in me. Kinda dismayed that AP thinks I'm scum. Won't support a VP lynch either although I find his opinions frustrating.

I think StarKiss is scum but have worrying doubts.

I'm on the fence about Thesp.

I'm on the fence about Hewitt, need to re-read the part where DGB calls him out for his vote hopping to do with Pooky (and would encourage everyone to do this and judge whether you think all 3 could be scum).

A little worried that MO might be scum... It is partially because of the scene he was picked to be advocate of. It was a nice scene to pick a townie-looking scum advocate for, a scene that had a neutral outcome, but could earn the advocate the town's trust.

In summary I need to do a heckuva re-read. I hope I'll have time for it this weekend :/

~Tal

[Talilan]

When it turns out you have been consistently wrong about significant things for much of the game, your later reaction is not to show trepidation or uncertainty at your conclusions based on this history (one breakdown-moment after Gaspar's lynch notwithstanding), but instead has been to make bald-faced assertions of things in a similar manner as before. Moreover, when other people express any degree of uncertainty, your approach has been to inadvertently(?) belittle this by proclaiming quite proudly that such things are seemingly obvious.

(Warning, gross use of generalization and stereotypes below!)

Thesp, ortolan is Australian. All NZers know these brash and brazen neighbours of ours never, ever doubt themselves.

~Tal

[Mighty Orbots]

There was nothing obvtown about Panzer or zu_Faul. We still need to know if hewitt will counter. This is extremely important.

I guess we'll have to treat Talilan as two separate players. Ortolan, can you please give your thoughts about who was left behind last scene? Talitha has given hers.

Just a quick note to confirm that I'm not the Assistant Producer. (I'm guessing VP Baltar isn't based on his post.)

Sigh.

[VP Baltar]

What would people have objected to, at the time, about leaving DGB/Thok/Shadowlurker off-stage?

The objection is that BOTH DGB and Thok were oozing scum from their eyes. Thok the lesser I suppose, but he certainly gave me an uneasy feeling and DGB was essentially confirmed scum after the numbers decision with her fakey fake drama about us getting several nos.

Now, what I don't understand is why you would put TWO people you highly suspected offstage with an obv town. You're theory about SL stunting off is bunk when you very well knew the numbers, as you pointed out earlier, and that we would have been close to getting a worst possible endgame scenario.

The correct play to make in your position there would have been to either a) put two VERY TOWN and one scummy player (DGB) offstage or b) put three very scummy players off stage and hope you chose correctly so they lynch one of their own.

B is obviously the more risky plan, but not nearly as idiotic as the choices you made for that scene.

re: hydras-I don't care if you disagree. Don't have your differences of opinion spill over into the thread. If you can't decide amongst yourselves, then one of you is just going to have to be the bigger person and give in. It's not the town's job to keep your opinions separate.

There was nothing obvtown about Panzer or zu_Faul.

I agree, if it weren't for the AP claim I would want to lynch him right away.


I am going to reformat my vote count analysis and try to get it up again today. Deadline is next week, correct?

[Mighty Orbots]

Deadline is next week, correct?

Next Saturday, December 12th.

---

Add lurking to the hewitt case.

[VP Baltar]

Final Vote Counts

Note: Mr. Grey's vote counts are in alphabetical order and not in the order that votes were cast...which is unfortunate and makes this analysis more difficult.

Italics

=Town,

Underlined

=Scum, non-formatted are alive players.

VOTE COUNT SCENE 1

Gaspar

: 3 (

GoofballsAndBaloons

, Talilan,

zwetschenwasser

)

zwetschenwasser

: 3 (

Bagel Eating Cowfrog, Gaspar

, Mighty Orbots)

elmosaurian

: 1 (

MrJellyLee

)

GoofballsAndBaloons

: 1 (

Thok

)
Talilan: 1 (

elmosaurian

)

Thok

: 1 (

ShadowLurker

)

Not Voting: 1 (

Rawr Hydra

)

Current Condorcet Winner: zwetschenwasser

VOTE COUNT SCENE 2

KY Krew

: 6 (

Bagel Eating Cowfrog

,

GoofballsAndBaloons

, Panzerjager,

sottyrulez

, Thesp, VP Baltar)
Panzerjager: 2 (hewitt,

KY Krew

)

Not Voting: 2 (

Gaspar

, StarKiss)[/area]

VOTE COUNT SCENE 3

Vote Count: 4 to lynch.

elmosaurian

: 4 (

MafiaJin

, Mighty Orbots,

sottyrulez

, Talilan)
Panzerjager: 1 (Thesp)

sottyrulez

: 1 (

elmosaurian

)

Not Voting: 1 (Panzerjager)

VOTE COUNT SCENE 4

Final Vote Count: 4 to lynch.

MafiaJin

: 4 (

curiouskarmadog

, hewitt,

ShadowLurker

, VP Baltar)
Thesp: 1 (

MafiaJin

)

Not Voting: 1 (Thesp)

VOTE COUNT SCENE 5

Final Vote Count: 4 to lynch.

Gaspar

: 4 (

curiouskarmadog

, hewitt, StarKiss, Talilan)

curiouskarmadog

: 1 (

Gaspar

)

Not Voting: 1 (

GoofballsAndBaloons

)

VOTE COUNT SCENE 6

Final Vote Count: 3 to lynch.

curiouskarmadog

: 3 (StarKiss, Thesp, zu_Faul)
StarKiss: 1 (

curiouskarmadog

)

VOTE COUNT SCENE 7

Final Vote Count: 2 to lynch.

ShadowLurker

: 2 (

GoofballsAndBaloons, Thok

)

Not Voting: 1 (

ShadowLurker

)




My analysis will come in a few minutes.

[VP Baltar]

@Thesp-can you quantify why you are so assured of Talilan's towniness? What do you think of his decisions this game (particularly Scene 7)?

Also, would you be willing to compile a voting record list in the same format as I did for the onstage decisions so we can have a comprehensive list put together and track individual players' progress across the course of the game. I would appreciate it

Vote Count Analysis by scene

Scene 1

: This scene is a bit of a throwaway because it didn't reach a full majority. GnB bought major town points from me here because she was opposed to the zwet lynch. Orbots was on zwet's lynch here, but his vote (iso 40 off stage) seems for good enough reasons and he did have KY Krew and Rawr Hydra (Pooky) as his next choices.

Scene 2

: I think this is a crucial scene to look at and it probably deserves a full reread. On the scum lynching wagon we have 2 confirmed town, 1 confirmed scum, the alleged AP, Thesp and myself. Now Thesp might appear suspect on the surface because he was the second to last on the wagon (followed only by DGB), but his suspicion of KY seems consistent throughout the day and doesn't appear to be bussing. Also this scene we have hewitt voting Panzer (zu faul) along with mega-obv scum KY Krew, and Starkiss not voting anyone.

Hewitt's vote on Panzer is very interesting because KY Krew does not even appear in his Condorcet AT ALL, and yet after KY flips scum hewitt says "I obviously agree with the KY Krew lynch so yeah that was good." (iso 14).

Starkiss was basically a non-entity during the scene. He did have KY Krew at the top of his voting list, but never actually voted him.

Scene 3

: This is a somewhat interesting scene, but I think we need to look at the onstage scene in relation to it because ALL of our confirmed scum were onstage in that scene...I guess I feel less bad about reaching a bad outcome in that scene somewhat (but not really). If there were any scum offstage in this scene, I would put my money on Talilan.

Scene 4

: I brought the real case again MafiaJin here, so I am willing to accept whatever blame people want to put on me for that. I really did feel like most of the folks off stage were town in this scene. Hewitt and MJ were the only two I really considered lynching. If there was a scum here, it was very likely hewitt. Again, I think this scene needs to be put side-by-side with the onstage thread, because I think the scum were dominating there.

Scene 5

: Yeah, so my top three scum suspects of those still alive lynched a town-Gaspar and DGB didn't vote....this isn't all that helpful. I am going to have to look back and read closely and see hewitt and Starkiss' reasons for voting. Talilan obviously wasn't a newcomber to the Gaspar lynch.

Scene 6

: It's already been pointed out multiple times that Starkiss stinks to holy hell this scene. It is obvious that DGB and Thok lied their asses off on stage. I believe MO is town and hewitt didn't lie onstage, but he might not have had to due to the other two already screwing up the list beforehand.

Scene 7

: Blamo.


My final analysis from just these votecounts is that I probably still want a Starkiss lynch today and Talilan is my second choice, though hewitt continues to look awful and his apathy doesn't help anything. I want to compare the onstage scenes, and now we should be able to single out the scenes that were dominated by the scum.

[Mighty Orbots]

Oh look someone's actually playing this game.

@zu_faul: Unless and until hewitt counters, you are confirmed town. Congrats.
VP has just posted a ton of stuff ^^ there. What is your take on all this?

@Thesp: Opinions on things that didn't happen Scene 1 plz?

@StarKiss: Post a case on somebody. Anybody.

@hewitt: Post or die.

I'm going to rejoin my conversation with Talilan tomorrow if hewitt doesn't post.

[Talilan]

VP it's nice to have the benefit of hindsight when calling someone idiotic isn't it.0

Regarding hydra thing, I'm about ready to quit the game due to someone on a high horse with stupidly high expectations of me.

~Tal

[VP Baltar]

I'm not trying to be a jerk, honestly. I'm sorry if I was being rude. I just think that you have to keep the rest of the town in mind when you guys post and cut down on the confusion. Just forget about it.

I do stand by my point that putting two scummy people and one non-scummy person off stage was a bad move. It isn't hindsight really because you said you were suspicious of both DGB and Thok.

Explain to me how leaving them off stage would help figure out which one of them lied? Did either of the alternative plans I proposed occur to you when you were making your choice?

Also, care to comment on the vote count analysis I posted? I'm interested in everyone's thoughts.

[VP Baltar]

Thesp, don't bother with the On screen stuff. I'm doing it right now and will be posting it in a bit when I finish.

[StarKiss]

{Kise}

Apologies. Don't have time to read but I will try to post no later than tomorrow night.

Off-Topic - Anyone here write screenplays?

*looks at mod*

[Talilan]

VP I understand your point, and understand what you want and why you want it but I'm not sure how to play like you're demanding I play without ruining my own enjoyment of the game. Have asked ortolan if he will carry on solo.

To answer again about my onstage choices (Hope this will be the last I have to post about it, so getting it all out there.)

Warning, random ramblings about onstage/offstage choices to follow...

You seriously have no idea how many possibilities my mind went through about who to leave offstage. My head hurt after it. I didn't have enough info to guarantee a good decision and I'm not ever sure how I could have made a safe decision.

Firstly I was never sure that Shadow Lurker was innocent. Never played with him before, I had taken Gaspar's advice and had my eye on him. 2nd it didn't cross my mind that DGB & Thok to be scum together, although I was kicking myself in the QT for not figuring it out when I was calling DGB out for her inconsistencies regarding Thok in the last off-stage bit. I had believed DGB was so obviously town for most of the game and was kinda resistant to change my mind on that even though I was starting to notice the evidence against her.

Yes, I could've done better, admittedly. Now that I know (..and remember that the mod refused to answer the question about it) that the last lynch of the last pre-endgame scene is considered "early", it

was

a bad move and I should have at least attempted safer options (even though I was likely to be wrong). I really thought the rules wording didn't support this being the case. I gambled and left two big question marks offstage.. because knowing their alignment before endgame would be very beneficial for town.

I knew that at the very least if one of them was lynched and town, that the other had to be scum.

I did envisage the possibility that SL would stunt me off, so that the 3 people suspected of onstage lying could thrash it out. If not me, then Hewitt of Starkiss would be stunted off, and I wanted to see the discussion of who they chose and why.

I did consider leaving someone very scummy offstage with 2 townie looking people but I had a premonition that whoever I chose as most scummy would end up not being scum at all.

I also thought that even if I left 2 scum offstage, one might lynch the other to look good going into endgame. If the rules were how I imagined them, this could've been a pretty likely scenario.

As I've said I thought it was best play to go with the objective info (that someone onstage lied).. rather than the subjective player X seems scummy.

~Tals

[VP Baltar]

On Stage Final Vote Counts

Note:

Italics

=Town,

Underlined

=Scum, Unformated=Still Alive. I will put the real name of the player in as a substitute for the character for easy reference, as well as whether the outcome of the scene was good, bad, or neutral.

Scene1

:

Final Vote Count: 5 to Decide.

Follow (Panzerjager): 5 (Talilan, Mufasablade, Starkiss,

curiouskarmadog

, Panzerjager)
Follow John Locke: 0

Not Voting: 4 (hewitt,

MafiaJin, Sottyrulz

, Thesp)

Outcome: Good

Scene 2

:
Final Vote Count: 5 to Decide.

Door 1: 5 (

KY Krew

, Mighty Orbots,

Thok

,

MafiaJin, MrJellyLee

)
Door 2: 1 (

Elmosaurian

)

Not Voting: 3 (

ShadowLurker

,

Pooky

,

curiouskarmadog

)

Outcome: Good

Scene 3

:

Final Vote Count: 5 to Decide.

Crone: 5 (

Elmosaurian

, hewitt, VP Baltar, Starkiss,

Goofballsandballoons

)
Mother: 1 (

curiouskarmadog

)
Maiden: 0

Not Voting: 3 (

Gaspar

,

Thok

,

Shadowlurker

)

Outcome: Bad

Scene 4

:

Final Vote Count: 5 to Decide.

Push The Button: 5 (

Gaspar, Elmosaurian

, Mighty Orbots, Starkiss, zu faul)
Don't Push The Button: 3 (Talilan,

Thok

,

sottyrulz

)

Not Voting: 1 (

Tabris

)

Outcome: Bad

Scene 5

:

Final Vote Count: 4 to decide.

Tequila: 4 (VP Baltar, Mighty Orbots,

sottyrulz

, Thesp)
Vodka: 0
Buttery Nipple: 0

Not Voting: 3 (

Thok

,

Shadowlurker

, zu faul)

Outcome: Neutral

Scene 6

Final Vote Count: 4 to decide

41: 4 (Mighty Orbots, Talilan, VP Baltar, hewitt)

Not voting: (

Goofballsandbaloons

,

Thok

,

Shadowlurker

)

Note: All of the not voting players either voted 41 in their Condorcet or expressed intentions of voting it.

Outcome: Very Bad

[VP Baltar]

Tal, don't let me ruin your fun in the game. I won't bring it up again and I don't want to be responsible for driving anyone from the game. I find it a touch frustrating, but it's not worth making someone not have fun over.