Big Brother Mafia - Town wins!

[SlySly]

Then that has nothing with being too defensive, it has to do with them not scumhunting. That's completely different, and completely irrelevant.

I was replying to this. I think that overdefensivness is titled in one way, and he doesn't belive it exists as a scumtell at all.

Thanks for the clarification. His refusing to offer up true nominee suggestions in a timely fashion and now delaying discussion of the suggested nominees by trying to steer the conversation away from that topic are bigger scumtells to me than his over-defensiveness. He has demonstrated his desire to delay meaningful conversation about the evictee nominations more than once now. His concern is more to blast me than it is to make sure that we have the correct people put on the eviction block. I have seen scum display the extreme over-defensive actions in many games that I have played in and it is somewhat of a scumtell whether he likes it or not.

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Just to make sure everyone knows (as there has been a lot of confusion about the PoV) I don't keep it from week to week. I pass it on, and if you get passed it, you can't give it back to the person whom gave it to you.

I assume that if you use it, it is gone, leaving the town more vulnerable. I think that is good reason to not test your POV just for clarification. That way you can pass it along to someone you feel is a townie and it still be available as a town tool.

[Kmd4390]

So there's really no way to defend against Sly's case.

-Point A) Wanted Zwet HOH
-Defense A) Informational HOH choice
-Counter A) Acknowledges defense, but says it makes no sense.

-Point B) Meta
-Defense B) Really can't defend.

-Point C) Llama wanted me as HOH
-Defense C) Really can't defend.

There's not much I can say about this...

[SlySly]

So there's really no way to defend against Sly's case.

-Point A) Wanted Zwet HOH
-Defense A) Informational HOH choice
-Counter A) Acknowledges defense, but says it makes no sense.

Considering his play in this game so far, do you really still think it would be in the town's best interest to have zwet deciding who is going to be on the block?

Let's hypothesize for a second:
1. zwet-scum is HoH and puts up 2 townies for eviction that everyone disagrees with.
2. A townie gets lynched and unknowingly gives HoH to a seemingly town player that is actually zwet-scum's scumbuddy.

How would zwet-scum be made to pay for his obvscum actions in this scenario?

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-Point B) Meta
-Defense B) Really can't defend.

In my opinion, you are playing very similarly to the way you played in Mirth's game. You said it best when you said...

If scum ONLY said things I disagree with all the time, this game would be a lot easier.

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-Point C) Llama wanted me as HOH
-Defense C) Really can't defend.

It isn't that Llama wanted you as HoH, it's that his reasoning for wanting you in over me was bogus.

[saberwolf]

Also, I'm glad we finally got it clear that saber never had pov. I'm surprised it took that long.

I never said I had it. I mentioned more than just the POV

[saberwolf]

I'm not gonna bother fighting to try to get myself off of nominations. Take that as you will.

[SensFan]

Mod: Replace me

I won't tolerate playing with people who ad hom (saber, Sly) or cheat (saber).

[saberwolf]

Mod: Replace me

I won't tolerate playing with people who ad hom (saber, Sly) or cheat (saber).

hahahahahahaha


ok, I'm finally going to speak up. I fully think sens is scum, hands down now.

He's being childish, whining about the bad attention he has. He can't handle the thought of losing, so he's replacing out. HE even accuses me of cheating! LOL....how am I cheating Sens? Ad hom happens all the time, in almost every mafia game...do you replace out of every mafia game? I didn't think so.

confirm vote: Sensfan

[SensFan]

Ad Hom is something I replace out of every single time, and is against most rulesets.
You cheat (and admit to it) by playing against your wincon and ruining games. Mith doesn't ban people from playing games for shits and giggles.

[SlySly]

Mod: Replace me

I won't tolerate playing with people who ad hom (saber, Sly) or cheat (saber).

Poor Chima!

[SlySly]

I fully think sens is scum, hands down now.

He's being childish, whining about the bad attention he has. He can't handle the thought of losing, so he's replacing out.

I agree. He has moved up in my list of eviction candidates. I would still like some more discussion before changing my suggestions.

[animorpherv1]

Woah.

@Sens: Replacing out because of bad players is a horrible reason to replace out, and if I was mod, I wouldn't allow it. I don't know if your noticing this, but saber has actually started to play. Your being childish, and theres no reason you aren't scum.

vote:SensFan

[PaltryExcuse]

Wha? I'm confused.

Your being childish, and theres no reason you aren't scum.

What are your reasons he is scum? Just the "RAGE...quit"?

[Kmd4390]

Considering his play in this game so far, do you really still think it would be in the town's best interest to have zwet deciding who is going to be on the block?

Yes.

Let's hypothesize for a second:
1. zwet-scum is HoH and puts up 2 townies for eviction that everyone disagrees with.
2. A townie gets lynched and unknowingly gives HoH to a seemingly town player that is actually zwet-scum's scumbuddy.

1. This helps town by making Zwet obvscum and evicted at first opportunity.
2. How is this different from the evictee picking a scum HOH in any other scenario?

How would zwet-scum be made to pay for his obvscum actions in this scenario?

Easy. The next HOH after Zwet's buddy nominates Zwet and his now obvscum buddy. Town has identified two scum in your hypothetical scenario. Doesn't sound so disasterous to me. Best part is, you just showed how a Zwet-HOH can net us two scum if Zwet is scum.

In my opinion, you are playing very similarly to the way you played in Mirth's game. You said it best when you said...

I try to make my scum game as close to my town game as possible. I guess I did a good job of that in Mirth's.

It isn't that Llama wanted you as HoH, it's that his reasoning for wanting you in over me was bogus.

Fair enough, but unless Llama flips scum first, how is that a point against me?

[animorpherv1]

Wha? I'm confused.

Your being childish, and theres no reason you aren't scum.

What are your reasons he is scum? Just the "RAGE...quit"?

Poor sport, over-defensivness and general anti-town behavior.

Off topic: Is it just me or is it ironic that farside is modding a mafia game that's open?

[PaltryExcuse]

What was anti-town about Sensfan's play?

[animorpherv1]

Tunnelvisioning, imo. IMHO, it's a scumtell.

[SlySly]

Considering his play in this game so far, do you really still think it would be in the town's best interest to have zwet deciding who is going to be on the block?

Yes.

Thanks for the clarification. You are strengthening my case, at least in my mind.

1. This helps town by making Zwet obvscum and evicted at first opportunity.

zwet is already pretty much obvscum in my mind, as are you and Sens. Your perpetual support of zwet just keeps solidifying it for me.

2. How is this different from the evictee picking a scum HOH in any other scenario?

In my scenario, that gives the zwet scum team 2 shots in a row to take out non-faction members. Luckily, zwet was not put in power. zwet-town HoH would have put in no effort and would have reasonlessly put 2 random people on the block and zwet-scum would have non-randomly put 2 non-faction members on the block, getting someone evicted that putting his team closer to victory.

How would zwet-scum be made to pay for his obvscum actions in this scenario?

Easy. The next HOH after Zwet's buddy nominates Zwet and his now obvscum buddy. Town has identified two scum in your hypothetical scenario. Doesn't sound so disasterous to me. Best part is, you just showed how a Zwet-HOH can net us two scum if Zwet is scum.

Yeah, once again assuming that zwet 2nd scum buddy didn't end up in power right after that somehow. I am finding it very hard to believe the persistence you are demonstrating to keep the rose colored glasses on in this game!

It isn't that Llama wanted you as HoH, it's that his reasoning for wanting you in over me was bogus.

Fair enough, but unless Llama flips scum first, how is that a point against me?

Llama's persistence to defend you over me and to perpetually attempt to make difference in our stated stances, when our stated opinions were basically the same, show connection to you the same way your perpetual defense of zwet, to me, illustrates your connection to him.

[saberwolf]

Sly: what happens to your views on sens and kmd if zwet was voted off first and flipped town?

what happens if only one of the three flips scum, and the other town, how does that affect the third's alignment in your mind?

[Kmd4390]

I'm not supporting Zwet at all. I would have picked him as the first HOH, but after that, I have done nothing in his favor. Hell, I haven't even called him town and you make it out like I have this massive town read on him. I don't.

About your scenario, If two players who are either town or in a specific scum group have to die to take out two scumbuddies, I don't mind the sacrafice.

Yeah, once again assuming that zwet 2nd scum buddy didn't end up in power right after that somehow. I am finding it very hard to believe the persistence you are demonstrating to keep the rose colored glasses on in this game!

You seem to think we will never have a town HOH.

Llama's persistence to defend you over me and to perpetually attempt to make difference in our stated stances, when our stated opinions were basically the same, show connection to you the same way your perpetual defense of zwet, to me, illustrates your connection to him.

Again, unless Llama is scum, how is this a point against me?

[Kmd4390]

Sly: what happens to your views on sens and kmd if zwet was voted off first and flipped town?

what happens if only one of the three flips scum, and the other town, how does that affect the third's alignment in your mind?

^This is the problem with Sly's suspicions. Too many of them rely too much on other suspicions being accurate.

[SlySly]

Sly: what happens to your views on sens and kmd if zwet was voted off first and flipped town?

what happens if only one of the three flips scum, and the other town, how does that affect the third's alignment in your mind?

If zwet flipped town, obviously. I would be forced to reevaluate my suspicions about kmd. zwet flipping town would have no effect on my thoughts about Sens because I don't sense any connections from zwet and kmd to Sens.

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I haven't even called him town and you make it out like I have this massive town read on him. I don't.

I think zwet being the HoH at this point would be terrible for the town.

You seem to think we will never have a town HOH.

You seem to think that everything is going to work out perfect for the town every step of the way and that making scum acting players pay for their actions is going to be as easy as it is in any old regular game of mafia. I don't see it that way.

Again, unless Llama is scum, how is this a point against me?

If Llama is scum, the connection I sense is a point against you. Obviously if Llama flips town, that wouldn't be a point against you and I would have to reevaluate my position.

^This is the problem with Sly's suspicions. Too many of them rely too much on other suspicions being accurate.

The problem with your position is that it relies too much on everything working out perfectly every step of the way. I can only see scum trying to convince the town that it will work out so well.

[PaltryExcuse]

I say we go one step at a time. Assuming connections without scum flips will drive us into ugly corners, hence why I don't support a kmd lynch.

I really don't understand the Sens lynch, at all. Beyond a bit of showboating about him not liking ad hominem arguments, I can't say what he has done is overpoweringly scummy in comparison to saber's wishes to rush the day IMO, and zwet's uninformative behaviour.

I won't support the idea that putting zwet in a position of power in order to make him talk would be a good thing. He could've just of easily gone with the town, and done what they might have wanted. We had one chance to give town in particular power, and it would have been foolish for us not to take it.

[animorpherv1]

I won't support the idea that putting zwet in a position of power in order to make him talk would be a good thing. He could've just of easily gone with the town, and done what they might have wanted. We had one chance to give town in particular power, and it would have been foolish for us not to take it.

This. Anyone who doesn't contribute anything should get lynched/voted off.

[LlamaFluff]

I dont really get the replace out, ad hom does put me on tilt a bit, but I see it more as confirmation on my basic views of humanity then anything else.

The fact that people are using a meltdown as a scumtell does however make me uncomforatable. The few times I have seen complete meltdowns, they have been town. Scum usually are able to use the chaos to help them a bit.

People using the breakdown I am happy with adding to an acceptable nom list (which is just ani I guess). PE and kmd showing sense over it are town tells in my book.

Needless to say, I hate a kmd nom.

[Snow_Bunny]

3) If you are very suspicious of someone, would you pick him together with a seemingly town person if you were HoH to be sure your suspect gets lynched?
No. I'd pick the town's top two suspects. If I'm very suspicious of someone that town isn't, I would discuss it with town and expose my case.

But if town doesn't want it that way, chances are that I will end up following the people's voice.

There's a difference between saying the above and saying "If the town doesn't want it that way, I will follow the people's voice." The phrase "Chances are that I will end up..." is language that shows that you are hedging and saying that you'd end up following the town, but it's not your choice and it's against your will. You lack of conviction in saying this is what gets me. And I am construing this as putting your will into others' hands - which at this point I see as scummy. There's a different sense I get in the words that you chose to use.

I believe that such position is not to encourage a player to do as he will, rather to follow up the town's voice. I insist, this game should be played as just another normal game, and the HoH being nothing more than a formality.

...Gut helps sometimes, but

chances are that such gut feeling about the scumminess of another player will end up as a mislynch.

Unless I have a very, very strong feeling about someone, I would do as town says.

I disagree with this statement, but that's personal preference. I do not think that gut necessarily leads to mislynch. But the way this is said you are showing distaste for gut feelings. I can respect that point, but I also don't see you doing too much scumhunting yet.

I rely on gut ofter, but as I said before, HoH should be nothing more than a formality, and nominating another player basely on gut and ignoring the town wishes is not the strategy I'd follow.

4) If i were HoH, i would pick ___ and ___
I don't have much now, but let it be note this: saberwolf's post about mufasa struck me as opportunistic, and his laziness on answering the question doesn't help him either. Probably mufasa wasn't in the same scum team as saberwolf, and now he suspects the accounts were in different teams.

So, if I had to nominate someone,

I'd go with saberwolf for now.

Again the language is "if I had to nominate", not "I would nominate". Minor change, but again sounds like you really wouldn't have put up your choices unless you had to.

I meant "had" and not "would" as I had no concrete reading so far. Not because I didn't want to, but because I didn't have.