California Trilogy: City of Angels - On Camera (Game Over)

[Mighty Orbots]

I think straight voting works for every other game on this site just fine and work just as well here. I see no reason, at all, to add another variable into the mix.

The Condorcet BS muddies the D1 votecount for me. Maybe you're better at parsing it than I am.

[VP Baltar]

Don't want to rush things. I'm hoping to review at least 2 other players tomorrow. What are you looking for, zu?

To be honest, I do think the only incriminating thing about VP is the player he replaced. Whoever said town is f*cked if he's scum is right. Won't bother iso'ing VP tomorrow since deadline is less than 3 days away.

Honestly, if you're town, I really want to see something significant from you. I gave hewitt more than a chance at this and I don't believe you are both town. I do believe it is possible one of you just made a lot of bad choices, but you guys have to give me some sort of reason to believe that.

Basically, your analysis is the only thing preventing me from calling harder for either of your lynches immediately.

re:condorcets-they are useful MO, but we should still reach a majority before deadline. It makes every player accountable for their stances on the overall game and can show continuity of thought.

[zu_Faul]

Read the thread for the context, but it wouldn't have made a difference, imo. Even if MO had asked if 41 was very good and got a no, what would that have changed? We would have been guessing anyhow because it was one or both of Thok and DGB who lied in that scene. It would have been a complete shot in the dark either way and we wouldn't have had any better of a chance to get a Very Good with another guess.

Unfortunately, I didn't push hard enough to reask DGB's question when that thought occurred to me. I'm guessing she was the one who lied there, so if MO had asked hers again we would have at least had a slightly better chance of guessing correctly.

Your whole argument was stupid. What you said:

But if noone is lying then there's not point in checking 41 because it's guaranteed to be our Very good.

Therefore, the proper play would be to check one of the previous players wouldn't it?

If no one is lying it would not have mattered one bit who to check.

You were only mentioning GAB

once

, hidden in some umimportant sentence. You also said Thok was trustworthy. It was never like you even began pushing for a re-check of GAB.

This looks like scum play to me, telling useless information and helping the scum.

Tags removed. Use bold only for voting. - Mod

[zu_Faul]

I already have voted. Condorcets are ridiculous. I said that at the very beginning.

Meanwhile, the off-camera crew is busy lynching people. I'm guessing this functions like a regular mafia game. That weird voting system (which I think we should avoid, really) comes into play here.

Did no one ever ask you why? If someone did, what did you reply? Because right now I think concordets are really awesome in the situation we are in. Scum really can't kill tonight because of them (or they'd leave a CI alive).

[zu_Faul]

Reading until the end of the thread is tech.

[Thesp]

I think straight voting works for every other game on this site just fine and work just as well here. I see no reason, at all, to add another variable into the mix.

The Condorcet BS muddies the D1 votecount for me. Maybe you're better at parsing it than I am.

The extra variable of condorcets is already in the mix - you're not adding it. I agree with you that we should get a traditional lynch - we ought to have someone strung up by the deadline. However, if that doesn't happen,

it will be a Condorcet lynch

. Currently, you have an outstanding Condorcet vote that looks like (using "fakevote" so it doesn't look like a real attempt to vote):

(fakevote): hewitt, [Mighty Orbots, No Lynch, StarKiss, Talilan, Thesp, VP Baltar, zu_Faul]

If this vote ends up swinging the lynch, I will hold you responsible for it.

(Granted, I doubt it will, and I think and hope we'll have an actual lynch instead of a deadline lynch, but I want to be crystal clear about my expectations, and my surprise at your refusal to actualize your stated full voting preferences.)

Still awaiting Starkiss.

[Mighty Orbots]

re:condorcets-they are useful MO, but we should still reach a majority before deadline. It makes every player accountable for their stances on the overall game and can show continuity of thought.

This is exactly what I was driving at.

Reading until the end of the thread is tech.

XD

my surprise at your refusal to actualize your stated full voting preferences

This is BS. I gave my full voting preferences.

Still awaiting Starkiss.

This.

[VP Baltar]

If no one is lying it would not have mattered one bit who to check.

I did not believe no one was lying. If no one was lying, then there wasn't even a point in using the last question, was there?:roll:

What was my scum motivation for wanting to check someone?

This is why I hate confirmed towns. They never put any real effort into a game and they say stupid shit that makes no sense because they won't be lynched. It has never failed in all of my games on MS.

You were only mentioning GAB once, hidden in some umimportant sentence. You also said Thok was trustworthy. It was never like you even began pushing for a re-check of GAB.

I never said that i was arguing vehemently for it, but I did suggest it. In fact, I was the only one to bring up any such idea and you can see in hindsight from DGB's reaction that I was on the right track. So, if I am scum for actually suggesting checking her, what does that make everyone else who said nothing?

[Thesp]

my surprise at your refusal to actualize your stated full voting preferences

This is BS. I gave my full voting preferences.

I think you're reading me wrong - why not put those preferences into a vote (where they are actualized) if you're already willing to state them? I understand the argument against Condorcets where people are afraid to give out their entire list of suspicions, but I'm not understanding why it's bad to

actually vote your list

as a stop-gap in case the real lynch doesn't happen in time. Can you help me understand?

[VP Baltar]

I dont' think the argument over condorcets is particularly relevent. Let's find the scum.

[Thesp]

I dont' think the argument over condorcets is particularly relevent. Let's find the scum.

True. Still awaiting Starkiss.

[Mr. Grey]

Deadline:

Approximately 52.5 hours from this post.

Vote Count:

4 to lynch.

hewitt: 2 (Mighty Orbots, VP Baltar)
StarKiss: 2 (Talilan, Thesp)
Talilan: 1 (hewitt)

Not Voting: 2 (StarKiss, zu_Faul)

Current Condorcet Winner:

StarKiss

To view the complete table of pairwise results, put the following information into this form.

1,hewitt
2,Mighty Orbots
3,StarKiss
4,Talilan
5,Thesp
6,VP Baltar
7,zu_Faul
8,No Lynch

1:4>3>2>5>6>7>8>1
1:1>3=4=5=6=7=8>2
1:1=2=4=5=6=7=8>3
1:3>5>1=2>6>7>4>8
1:3>1=2>4=6>8>5=7
1:1>3>5>4>2>8>6=7
1:3>6>2>1>4>5>8>7

[StarKiss]

{Kise}

No support for a Taliban lynch?

I think concord.. condor.. however you spell the shit, it allows for longer phases. Rather than making it easy for someone to be put in hammering range, all votes can be counted at the end so nothing suddenly ends. For that, I know who I'm looking into today.

FYI, my school has banned game sites such as mafiascum, so everything will get done in 6 hours when I return home.

[zu_Faul]

Reading until the end of the thread is tech.

XD

Yeah, I was in a lecture writing those posts, but it ended to early, so I only skimmed the last parts of the thread, after I posted.

I think straight voting works for every other game on this site just fine and work just as well here. I see no reason, at all, to add another variable into the mix.

The Condorcet BS muddies the D1 votecount for me. Maybe you're better at parsing it than I am.

Look, it is actually a

boon

to town rather than a hindrance. And if you want to just see who is voting whom, then just look at the first column of the table. Or, at the normal votecount above.

I can't see your refusal to use the concordet right now in a positive light at all. There is really no downside, there is just a strange feeling of yours if you are town or scummy motivation if you are not.

[zu_Faul]

Also, MO, why do you have VP Baltar in such high regards?

[zu_Faul]

FYI, my school has banned game sites such as mafiascum, so everything will get done in 6 hours when I return home.

http://anonymouse.org/anonwww.html

Also, how were you just posting?

[zu_Faul]

If no one is lying it would not have mattered one bit who to check.

I did not believe no one was lying. If no one was lying, then there wasn't even a point in using the last question, was there?:roll:

Very nice of you to leave out what I quoted of you:

But if noone is lying then there's not point in checking 41 because it's guaranteed to be our Very good.

You

bring up the "if noone is lying" stuff. I was just referencing this. No need to roll your eyes.

What was my scum motivation for wanting to check someone?

Check a person who was town is good for scum. It was already stated (and obviously a good idea) to check someone instead of trying something funny with that last vote. Of course there is scum motivation for you to get the wrong one checked. This is why you pushed for hewitt and not for GAB or Thok.

This is why I hate confirmed towns. They never put any real effort into a game and they say stupid shit that makes no sense because they won't be lynched. It has never failed in all of my games on MS.

I just want to hit you with a big stick right now. I am putting effort into this game and I already have. And I am trying to find scum

right now

.

You were only mentioning GAB once, hidden in some umimportant sentence. You also said Thok was trustworthy. It was never like you even began pushing for a re-check of GAB.

I never said that i was arguing vehemently for it, but I did suggest it. In fact, I was the only one to bring up any such idea and you can see in hindsight from DGB's reaction that I was on the right track. So, if I am scum for actually suggesting checking her, what does that make everyone else who said nothing?

I reread again, then had to waste 5 minutes to check who Tabris was. OK, you suggested Tabris (=GAB) is to be rechecked and pretty openly, sorry for that.

[Mighty Orbots]

I can't see your refusal to use the concordet right now in a positive light at all. There is really no downside, there is just a strange feeling of yours if you are town or scummy motivation if you are not.

Insert rolly-eyed smiley here -->

This isn't worth arguing over.

{vote below, rulez}

Also, MO, why do you have VP Baltar in such high regards?

He's only done a couple really questionable things this game (Crone, vote check), and even those, when read in context, could have come from town. Others (the ones higher on my list) have done more (hewitt/StarKiss, Talilan last two days) with far worse justification. Today he's been practically a shining beacon of towniness.

Vote:

hewitt

, Talilan, [Starkiss, Thesp], VP Baltar, Mr. Grey, Mighty Orbots, no lynch, zu_faul

[VP Baltar]

lol, we really should just lynch Mr. Grey and get it over with MO!

[Mighty Orbots]

He's an SK or something I swear.

[zu_Faul]

Regardless of which plan we end up with, we need a presumed townie going last. I'm disappointed that my preferred choice, SL, cannot make it, but I'm satisfied with MO's pro-town performance enough for him to hold that key last position.

GAB really wanted to make sure she was going to be last. We now know why. Don't you think it is possible she planted a scum buddy at the end?
Well, that certainly is a possibility, but then I think she would have suggested MO, who was ranked second in protownness right away.

I don't like how in his offstage posts he has Thok and GAB as town. But he had KY Krew and Pooky as scum early on. Then switched to GAB as somewhat scummy, but "too blatant". Features good analysis on her. Says Thok is scummy.

So, yeah, I think MO is town.

[zu_Faul]

This is my opinion at this point:

Vote: StarKiss, Hewitt, [Talilan, VP Baltar], Mighty Orbots, Thesp, No lynch, zu_Faul.

[StarKiss]

{Kise}

I was at the house, zu, leaving for school at the time of that post. Was gonna review individually, but deadline is day and a half away. Right away I have to point out that everyone should think outside the box. There are easy targets, clean players, and a confirmed innocent. Everyone knows the deal with hewitt and myself. If Thesp is town, he screwed up his image by fishing for an AP claim previously. Talilan isn't impossible, but I'd put them in the middle of everyone else. It's close to futile to build a case on someone who plays flawless, but suspicion should still, at the very least, be put on those less scummy [MO, VP].

I was also trying to figure out the likelihood of SL being made the advocate. I thought the scum might do this so he couldn't stunt someone offstage to be lynched. If SL was made advocate and bumped onstage, Hewitt would have been left offstage. There were a lot off possibilities to think about.

Private speculation doesn't serve anyone well. A gameplan should have been arranged with SL if you truly expected or wanted him to do certain things while off-camera. Still, setting it up where 2 scummy/lying players are left with someone who wasn't close to scummy (SL) was a boo-boo move. You share so many thoughts of what was going on in your head and what you thought would happen, but optimal play would have been to go over these ideas with SL. Unless you shared a QT with Shadow (joke), all thoughts and suggestions should have been posted.

Do you think ckd's lynch provided any info toward finding scum? If so, what exactly?

Now that I think about it, he died in vain. The way things are set-up, no possible way there are two anti-town factions. But, that is something I am almost certain of now, opposed to back then -- I wouldn't mind explaining how I came to believe this, if anyone wants to know. Really though, CKD created a him-or-me situation. He pretty much overlooked me agreeing with him during the 1st scene due to how hesitant I was to believe his word. He rode that for the longest and it popped up during the time I lynched him. If he wasn't being a dick towards me, I would have tried to question Thesp more for pestering zu_faul into claiming AP or not. As said earlier, I wanted to find other ways to prove CKD's advocate PM was true, but even now I think SMG isn't different from Sci'. CKD got duped by whoever wrote the PM.

I agree that hewitt looks pretty bad, but there is something too easy about his lynch that really bothers me.

But you still go along with it. Same with MO. You both just slid votes onto him after he said to lynch him. But that's hewitt's bad for giving you both justification to vote for him so nonchalantly. And as far as me taking responsibility for dram's opinions and vice versa, that's hard to do when we both get different reads genuinely as two separate players. For instance, dram lynched Gasper and thought Talilan was town, whereas I felt the very opposite in regards to both those player's positions.

We were less trusted than DGB on-stage IIRC, and she would additionally look good the way she'd attacked Thok throughout the game and was turning on us at the time we did it.

[...]

This is besides the fact I think it's downright dumb to suggest we are likely to be scum with Thok- we were on his case throughout the game [...]

So... contradicting yourself, much?

I want to see this answered, orto.

Ok, I want to bring up some points I've had up my sleeve for a while before this conversation takes too much of a turn for the worst.

In other words, this plan has been in the works while the scum discussed how to manipulate endgame. Go on.

That's besides the point that I don't think three scum in ourselves, Thok and DGB would put all our eggs in one basket by interacting so much with one another if we were indeed scum.

In my heyday, I've seen brilliant play by mafia mates. Kublai Khan called ZazieR a bitch in what looked like an ad hom attack to most of us. Imagine the shock when we found out they were both apart of the same non-town faction. I don't put any kind of plan or situation past scum. You yourself told me in Death Note mafia not to let ignorance influence how I approach a game. In any event, bussing and distancing is not something invented yesterday, so of course it's something to consider. Even here with all the encounters you've had with Thok.

This isn't the "scum never make slips" defence, it's the "scum would know not to make themselves look scummy" defence

I wonder why I can't use that.

What would people have objected to, at the time, about leaving DGB/Thok/Shadowlurker off-stage?

The fact I wasn't left off-camera and proposed as the definite lynch, like you've been begging for since midway through the game... although, I wouldn't really object to it. More so question the reasons behind it, which I'm doing now. I'm pretty sure you even said to everyone that you wanted to leave me (or 2 other of your suspects) off-camera with 2 townish players to decide our fate... Yet later on, your views are inconsistent as, rather than have 1 of your suspects left off camera, you put 2 of your supposed suspects off camera with 1 townish player (SL) to determine which one was lying.

Not to forget, up until I mentioned how squeaky clean your voting record has been, you never picked a wrong choice on-camera. I'm believing that after I pointed out the ridiculousness of you "GUESSING" the right choices all the time, you decided to throw in the monkey wrench and not keep up the perfection any longer.

I actually do not feel that bad about how the lynch last scene went down. We uncovered 2 scum. We know the alignments of ALL players not in endgame. We actually did OK.

Depends on who "we" is. No, this is not okay. It's a blatant mindf*ck set up for us to wonder why both Thok and DAB chose their partners for endgame rather than themselves, as in who could these partners be that they have confidence will win the game. If you wanted to experiment with hewitt or myself, that should have happened long ago at a time when the town's chances of winning/lynching anti-town were in a better position than now. Players that had natural town vibes have all been killed in between scenes. VP is doing good for himself, but would it really be wrong if I wondered about his alignment? PNIA knows what they're doing to take out good players such as Glork, MJ, etc. All the mislynches have been easy. All the mislynched players have said some scummy crap that raised eyebrows and tightened nooses. I could care less how crazy this sounds, but if today is our only experimental lynch, I'd rather test it on MO or VP since they seem farthest from making anything viewed as a scumslip. The reason I place hewitt and myself in the category of experimental is because it's been announced how you all have doubts that our lynches would be correct, so hah.

I'm not going to post a wall of text because that will piss people off. Do note that I am not finished this morning, as I simply wanted to limit the size of each post. I will drop more bombs until I reach page 56.

Vote: Talilan, Thesp, [hewitt, Mighty Orbots, VP Baltar] StarKiss, No Lynch, zu_faul

[VP Baltar]

Vote: Starkiss, hewitt, Thesp, Talilan, Mighty Orbots, No Lynch, [VP Baltar, zu faul]

[VP Baltar]

crap.

Unvote