[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[Alduskkel]

@Farside:

If the Vig shoots the mafia Nurse, who protacted him/herself, vig claims, and lynches a mafia.

Only if the Roleblocker is dead.

[farside22]

@Farside:

If the Vig shoots the mafia Nurse, who protacted him/herself, vig claims, and lynches a mafia.

Only if the Roleblocker is dead.

^ this and it's the mafia nurse that needs to be a doctor first.
idk I feel this is a bit swingy but I would love someone to crunch the numbers on this game.

[Netopalis]

Wait. Self-protection is legal now?

[Sanjay]

Physician, heal thyself.

[shaft.ed]

Think it would be better without the self protect.

Also Roleblocker and Role Cop on the mafia side seems overpowered. Why is the Roleblocker there, and why isn't there a back-up roleblocker?

[Sanjay]

Think it would be better without the self protect.

Also Roleblocker and Role Cop on the mafia side seems overpowered. Why is the Roleblocker there, and why isn't there a back-up roleblocker?

I agree with this.

I think having a vigilante and a roleblocker distracts from the tit for tat thing going on. Give the town some back up roles or leave them out.

[animorpherv1]

@Farside:

If the Vig shoots the mafia Nurse, who protacted him/herself, vig claims, and lynches a mafia.

Only if the Roleblocker is dead.

If Roleblocker TARGETS the vig, and not the other roles, if living. The way you say it makes it seem like Roleblocker can ONLY target the vig.

[Alduskkel]

Think it would be better without the self protect.

Also Roleblocker and Role Cop on the mafia side seems overpowered. Why is the Roleblocker there, and why isn't there a back-up roleblocker?

I agree with this.

I think having a vigilante and a roleblocker distracts from the tit for tat thing going on. Give the town some back up roles or leave them out.

You need the Vigilante to make the Mafia Nurse relevant. And with a Vigilante, I think the Mafia could use a Roleblocker.

[farside22]

Think it would be better without the self protect.

Also Roleblocker and Role Cop on the mafia side seems overpowered. Why is the Roleblocker there, and why isn't there a back-up roleblocker?

I agree with this.

I think having a vigilante and a roleblocker distracts from the tit for tat thing going on. Give the town some back up roles or leave them out.

You need the Vigilante to make the Mafia Nurse relevant. And with a Vigilante, I think the Mafia could use a Roleblocker.

I understood this but I think the self protect is too much for the scum.
With a RB at their hands in the beginning they have to worry only about a doctor and vig.
With a role cop as scum I assume they will get the info of the role it's self?

[Elephant Hell]

1) Mafia Doc can't self-protect then (the reason I included that in the first place was because they're more likely to gain their ability later in the game when there may be fewer mafiosi to protect, if any, but I can see why that would end up overpowered).
2) Vig is necessary to make the Mafia Doc useful, as Alduskkel mentioned. Additionally, as it stands both sides have 2 power roles and 1 backup. You

could

make a Mafia Vig Backup that gains an extra 1-shot kill (can't be used on the same night as the normal kill). However, that might push the balance against the Mafia.
3) farside: Rolecop gets the actual role, but the Deputy just becomes a regular Cop. Maybe it would be more balanced (but more swingy) if the Deputy became a Rolecop too.
4) Regarding the Mafia Doc revealing themselves as scum if self-protecting against the Vig: Doc could protect a scummy town player, or as stated the Vig could be roleblocked. Of course, maybe they

do

self-protect against a kill - but they can still lie. You could do this the other way as well, with a Mafia player claiming to be the Vig and that they were blocked when trying to kill someone they actually suspect of being the Deputy, for example. However, I'm not sure how likely/desirable those scenarios are, and the situation is avoided if the self-protect is removed.

I suppose that you could do the following:
1 Mafia Vig Backup
1 Mafia Nurse
1 Mafia Rolecop
1 Mafia Roleblocker
1 1-shot Vigilante
1 Doc
1 Deputy
1 Roleblocker Backup
4 Townies

Nightless, or at least the Mafia can't nightkill. This might be getting too swingy/not normal though.

EDIT: A variation on this theme:
1 Mafioso
1 Mafia Rolecop
1 Mafia Doc
1 Deputy
1 Doc
1 Cop Enabler
1 Doc Enabler
5 Townies

[farside22]

actually I thinking sticking with this:

Tit for Tat Mafia
1 Mafia Roleblocker
1 Mafia Role Cop
1 Mafia Nurse
1 Doctor
1 Vigilante
1 Deputy
6 Townies

Without the self protect is fine. I think adding the the rest of the backups are not neccessary and no I don't like the idea of giving the mafia an extra kill.

[shaft.ed]

actually I thinking sticking with this:

Tit for Tat Mafia
1 Mafia Roleblocker
1 Mafia Role Cop
1 Mafia Nurse
1 Doctor
1 Vigilante
1 Deputy
6 Townies

Without the self protect is fine. I think adding the the rest of the backups are not neccessary and no I don't like the idea of giving the mafia an extra kill.

I still think Role Cop and Roleblocker on Mafia side are unbalanced.

What about:

1 Mafia Backup Roleblocker
1 Mafia Doctor
1 Mafia Rolecop

1 Town Vig
1 Town Nurse
1 Town Deputy
1 Town Roleblocker
5 Vanilla Townies

Now each side has a killing power (vig vs. mafia kill). And Town starts with 2 power roles and 2 backups, while mafia has 2 power roles and a backup. Problem here I guess is a mafia version of "follow the cop."

[farside22]

actually I thinking sticking with this:

Tit for Tat Mafia
1 Mafia Roleblocker
1 Mafia Role Cop
1 Mafia Nurse
1 Doctor
1 Vigilante
1 Deputy
6 Townies

Without the self protect is fine. I think adding the the rest of the backups are not neccessary and no I don't like the idea of giving the mafia an extra kill.

I still think Role Cop and Roleblocker on Mafia side are unbalanced.

What about:

1 Mafia Backup Roleblocker
1 Mafia Doctor
1 Mafia Rolecop

1 Town Vig
1 Town Nurse
1 Town Deputy
1 Town Roleblocker
5 Vanilla Townies

Now each side has a killing power (vig vs. mafia kill). And Town starts with 2 power roles and 2 backups, while mafia has 2 power roles and a backup. Problem here I guess is a mafia version of "follow the cop."

Is the vig a conpulsive vig?

[animorpherv1]

Always assume if it's not put as "compulsive' it's not. But it's nice to ask anyways.

[Adel]

Paris Mafia

2 mafia goons
2 mimes
1 vig
1 watcher
5 townies

11 players, daystart

The only run of Paris Mafia: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10489
player consensus in post-game: the scum were too powerful.

where a bunch of us worked on it in the old thread: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... start=3200

Paris II

2 mafia goons
2 mimes
1 vig
1 watcher
6 townies


12 players, daystart

~~~


Role PMs

Six players will receive the following Role PM:

Vous êtes une Vanille Townie. Vous n'avez aucune puissance de special.

Vous gagnez quand on a éliminé toutes les menaces pour la ville.

Two players will receive the following Role PM:

You are a Goon. You are on a team with ________, who is also a Goon.

Each game night you may communicate with each other via PM. In addition, each game night you may PM me the name of one player to kill, and the Goon who will perform the kill.

You win when only Goons are alive.

Two players will receive the following Role PM:

You are a Mime. You are on a team with _______, who is also a Mime.

Each game night you may communicate with each other via PM. In addition, each game night you may PM me the name of one player to roleblock, and the Mime who will perform the roleblock. All night actions by the blocked player will not occur. You will not be informed of whether or not a block successfully alters the events of a night.

You win when all Mimes have been lynched.

One player will receive the following Role PM:

You are a Watcher, Town-Aligned.

Each game night you may PM me the name of a player to watch. You will be informed via PM of all other players that targeted the watched player with a night action.

You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated.

One player will receive the following Role PM:

You are a Vigilante, Town-Aligned.

Each game night you may PM me the name of one player to kill.

You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated.

~~~

IMO the mime win condition is mutually exclusive with the mafia's and with the town's.

[Elephant Hell]

Problem here I guess is a mafia version of "follow the cop."

Not as much of a problem though, because a) the majority is trying to lynch the Mafia during the day and b) if the Vig's kill is prevented chances are they've targeted a Mafioso.

So in that case:

Tit for Tat Mafia v2

1 Mafia Doctor
1 Mafia Rolecop
1 Mafia Roleblocker Backup
1 Vigilante
1 Nurse
1 Deputy
1 Roleblocker
5 Townies

Day start.

Currently the mafia gains less from the town, but I guess that's made up for by the relatively powerful initial combination of Cop and Doc.

Adel: I'm guessing that if one Mime is NKed whilst the other is alive, the Mime leaves the game. Anyway, it seems like the game becomes pretty swingy around the time when the first Mime dies as basically everyone tries to kill/identify the second one. I suppose a lot would depend on whether the Watcher managed to target anyone blocked by the Mimes up until that point (there'd be a little bit of uncertainty at that point depending on whether the Watcher saw a killing role that was roleblocked, but it could probably be sorted out with roleclaims). Of course, whether the Watcher claims depends on how well they've been doing against the Mafia as well.

[farside22]

Reading the game comments for paris it seems people thought adding 2 VT's would be more helpful. What does 1 VT added to the set up change? Why add only 1 instead of 2 VT's?

[farside22]

Tit for Tat Mafia v2
1 Mafia Doctor
1 Mafia Rolecop
1 Mafia Roleblocker Backup
1 Vigilante
1 Nurse
1 Deputy
1 Roleblocker
5 Townies

I sudder at the thought of the mafia killing the RB night 1.

[Elephant Hell]

Vig killing the Mafia Doc or Rolecop night 1 is statistically more likely (provided that they're alive and make a kill).

In my opinion the original version is mostly okay barring the RBer/Rolecop problem. However, the RBer isn't there for any particular reason - I just included it because it's a fairly standard Mafia role. It could be replaced with a different Mafia role e.g. Godfather. What if the Doc/Nurse were swapped out for Jailkeeper/JK backup as well? That prevents any kind of follow-the-cop scenario, and reduces the strength of the Rolecop+role-with-RB-effect combination. Maybe the RBer should become a Hitman (kill can't be protected against/roleblocked)?

So something like this:
1 Mafia Hitman
1 Mafia Jailkeeper Backup
1 Mafia Rolecop
1 Vigilante
1 Jailkeeper
1 Deputy
6 Townies

[shaft.ed]

I like the JK idea. Makes the role more useful to mafia and less predictable than "protect [insert scumbuddy]". Also prevents follow the cop if both roles end up in town hands. I'd simplify it by just removing the RB altogether.

Mafia:
Mafia Jailkeeper
Mafia Deputy
Mafia Goon

Town:
(Role) Cop
Vig
Backup JK
6 townies

[Crazy]

The main problem with Paris Mafia isn't balance; it's Kingmaker IMO.

Adding an extra townie to Paris Mafia does help, because what went wrong last time is that at the start of Day 2, town had already lost a complete majority. With an extra townie, that couldn't happen until Day 3.

Also, is there a reason why the other mime doesn't die if one of them is killed at night? I forgot about that... but I can't think of any real reason why not.

And it still seems that no matter what you do, the game is still going to go to a Kingmaker scenario a significant amount of times (or a scenario where the town has to just No Lynch and hope the scum accidentally kills the Mime). Perhaps that doesn't matter, but it seems rather unexciting.

Yeah, the setup is good in that it makes the Jester no longer easy to win with, but it doesn't solve the problem with kingmakers. I'm wondering if maybe the mimes should self-destruct if neither of them are lynched after two lynches, or something like that.

Or maybe the mafia should automatically win if their numbers equal the numbers of townies (not townies + mimes.) And then just add enough town so it's balanced.

[Elephant Hell]

shaft.ed: the main problems people seemed to have were a) self-protecting Mafia Doc, b) Cop+Doc on the Mafia side (obviously also on the town side, but Mafia moreso because they know each other) and c) Rolecop+RBer on the Mafia side. Those seem to have been solved with the current setup by the JKer, lack of an RBer and lack of self-protection, so barring any other issues it should be fine as this:

Tit for Tat Mafia v3

1 Mafioso
1 Mafia Jailkeeper
1 Mafia Deputy

1 Vigilante
1 Jailkeeper Backup
1 Cop
6 Townies

Day start. Mafia Deputy becomes a Rolecop if the Cop dies before them, rather than a regular Cop.

[Sanjay]

Can the jailkeeper jailkeep and kill at the same time? Can the deputy investigate and kill at the same time?

[Adel]

Reading the game comments for paris it seems people thought adding 2 VT's would be more helpful. What does 1 VT added to the set up change? Why add only 1 instead of 2 VT's?

2 mafia goons vs. watcher + vig + 7 townies seems like a lot..

possible rule changes:
1. "no lynch" is not allowed while both mimes are alive.
2. if one mime is killed at night the other becomes a neutral survivor OR if one mime is killed at night, both die and lose.

[Sanjay]

What's the thinking behind leaving them in the game right now? They don't have a winnable win condition anymore, right?