[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[TheButtonmen]

Wouldn't it mean though that the tracker has to hit the killing scum, unlike the scum who can hit either?

[Elmo]

When both Mafia are alive, the goon should perform the kill, and the roleblocker should roleblocked. So when tracker gets a result on the roleblocker, they have to consider whether the player is a doc, rather than receiving a plain guilty.

Effectively they get a guilty if they target the goon (unless the kill is blocked) and a 50%-guilty-with-info if they target the doc/RB. But they have to think carefully before mentioning it; they also have to consider whether the target makes more sense as a doc target or RB. The two will coincide a fair amount.

[ElectricBadger]

5W:

• Mafia Roleblocker
  
• Mafia Goon
  
• Tracker
  
• Doctor
  
• 5(?) Townies

Day start.

I want to see this in operation once or twice before suggesting it to VRK as a replacement for F11. I don't think it is susceptible to the old "Investigative Role claims, Doctor protects while Investigator hunts" problem, because the RB can just stop an outed

Cop

Tracker while the Goon hunts the Doc.

Two bits: first, tracking shows that town is at a significant disadvantage already (IIRC they win about 20% less than scum in newbie games). Nerfing town further seems counterproductive.

Second, I don't think the rare case that combining the effects of claimed power roles works out is necessarily a bad thing. There IS a time to mass claim, and removing that eliminates a teaching tool. Pushing it too far will just give a skewed 'never claim' mentality.

Personally I'm still in favor of adding 2 VT to all the newbie setups. More room for scum to hide during a mass claim but gives a much-needed hand up to town.

[mykonian]

Won't the Tracker auto-nail the Mafia doing the killing, since the Tracker would be told that "Player X went to Player Y's house last night". The next day Player Y turns up dead. Player X is scum.

Am I missing something about the Tracker role? It seems with only 1 killing group in an F11 setup you're giving the tracker too much power, because he automatically knows that the person doing the killing must be scum, and not necessarily a pro-Town killing role like a Vig or similar.

The difference lies mostly in the fact that he can't say for sure someone

isn't

scum. The tracker becomes just as powerful as the cop as soon as one scum is lynched.

[farside22]

Won't the Tracker auto-nail the Mafia doing the killing, since the Tracker would be told that "Player X went to Player Y's house last night". The next day Player Y turns up dead. Player X is scum.

Am I missing something about the Tracker role? It seems with only 1 killing group in an F11 setup you're giving the tracker too much power, because he automatically knows that the person doing the killing must be scum, and not necessarily a pro-Town killing role like a Vig or similar.

So no investigation role would be good? I mean Vel is right this is almost like follow the cop that is already going on except follow the tracker.
Of course the tracker has a 1 out of 8 chance of being correct on who to follow. If he follows the doc and nothing happens to the player that the doc targeted he will realize player not dead and another player dead there is the doc right there.
(shrug)

[imaginality]

Wondering about this variation on 5W:

Mafia Goon
Mafia RB
Tracker

or

Watcher
Doc

or

Jailkeeper
5 Townies

[Herodotus]

If he follows the doc and nothing happens to the player that the doc targeted he will realize player not dead and another player dead there is the doc

or the roleblocker

right there.

Then should they announce that result? If it was the doc, they're outed. If it was the RB, they'll claim doc, the doc will counterclaim.

[Mr. Flay]

Guaranteed sane Cop results are unambiguous, and require no thought to process. Tracker at least has some questions to deal with after he gets his result (assuming the Doc and Roleblocker aren't both dead, lulz). That would build more skill, I'd think.

There is the question of what result he'd see if only the Mafia RB was alive and sent in both the kill and roleblock. That's kind of a downside to 5W...

[Herodotus]

Not quite mountainous:

2 Masons.
8 VTs.
2 Goons.

I thought it might be broken by a day 1 massclaim and random lynches, but it isn't. That gives the town about a .35 probability. If a VT is lynched and a VT is NKed night 1, the same strategy from day 2 gives the town about a .30 probability.

[TheButtonmen]

I've heard that 2:10 Mountie is pretty much a sure scum win, so I'm wondering how much the town needs. And a mason pair seems like a good starting point that doesn't involve night roles.

[Herodotus]

My impression was that someone had calculated that it was balanced with town having a win probability between .25 and .50 given random lynches, but that by coincidence town had never won.

Edit: from mith's spreadsheet in The Numbers Thread, town has a .3521 probability of winning 2:10 mountainous with random lynches.

[TheButtonmen]

Intresting, so they may not need the mason pair at all? Maybe downgrade it to unknow alignment neighbours, who are determined randomly

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Would a Watcher work any better than a Tracker in Flay's proposed setup, especially in light of Flay's point in 1307: what do you do if the RBer is the only one left and sends in both the NK and the Block and the Tracker follows him without being blocked? That's pretty much game over.

[mith]

I went through the vanilla-variants spreadsheet the other day and pulled out a bunch of near 50-50 setups over a range of game sizes, mostly to see what it looked like. But I thought I might as well post it here.

Terms should be obvious except for White Flag (which I think can be found in this thread somewhere, but I include the definition below so you don't have to go looking for it). Treestump is functionally equivalent to only giving the scum a nightkill if a scum member is lynched.

White Flag - Win conditions are changed to "Town wins if there is only one Mafia remaining" and "Mafia win if they make up one third of the Town".

5 Players - Vengeful; 2:3 Lovers
6 Players - 2:4 Lovers Nightless
7 Players - 2:5 Lovers; 2:5 Nightless
8 Players - 2:6 Nightless
9 Players - 2:7 Treestump; 2:7 White Flag
10 Players - 4:6 PairedLovers Nightless
11 Players - 3:8 Nightless; 2:9 White Flag
12 Players - 3:9 Nightless; 2:10 Double Day
13 Players - 6:7 PolyLovers; 2:11 Vanilla
14 Players - 6:8 PairedLovers Nightless; 4:10 PairedLovers; 3:11 Treestump
15 Players - 4:11 PairedLovers; 3:12 Treestump; 2:13 Vanilla
16 Players - 4:12 Nightless

(Worst balance EV-wise is 2:11 Vanilla, at ~39%. Everything else is in the 40-60 range, and most are very close to 50-50.)

[mith]

Maybe downgrade it to unknow alignment neighbours, who are determined randomly

In EV terms, this would effect the balance at all. No idea how it would affect it practically.

I should figure out the numbers for the 2-masons-but-otherwise-vanilla setup, it ought to be doable.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Not quite mountainous:

2 Masons.
8 VTs.
2 Goons.

I thought it might be broken by a day 1 massclaim and random lynches, but it isn't. That gives the town about a .35 probability. If a VT is lynched and a VT is NKed night 1, the same strategy from day 2 gives the town about a .30 probability.

This is just Friends and Enemies 2/2 and is already part of the open game list (though I think it has lately been replaced by Friends and Enemies 3/3 instead).

[Herodotus]

Ah, I thought friends & enemies was exclusively 3/3, though I did recognize the similarity.

Thebuttonmen, I think the introduction of the masons is a good idea, as long as it doesn't create a breaking strategy and doesn't push the town beyond a .5-.6 win probability with random lynches.

[animorpherv1]

PolyLovers????

[ortolan]

Follow The Cop

9 players

2x mafia goons
1x cop
2x beloved princess millers
4x vanilla townies

cop head start

edit: beloved princesses only give the scum an extra kill, the cop only gets one investigation. They only trigger doublekill if they are lynched, not nightkilled.

[ortolan]

Might also make the princesses flip as VT if they are nightkilled, not sure on that one.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

Follow The Cop

9 players

2x mafia goons
1x cop
2x beloved princess millers
4x vanilla townies

cop head start

edit: beloved princesses only give the scum an extra kill, the cop only gets one investigation. They only trigger doublekill if they are lynched, not nightkilled.

I

think

the best strategy here is to lynch normally day 1, and if someone is driven to claim that claims princess or cop, lynch someone else (obv). Then, Day 2 have both princesses claim and cop claim her result. Thoughts?

[Mr. Flay]

Would a Watcher work any better than a Tracker in Flay's proposed setup, especially in light of Flay's point in 1307: what do you do if the RBer is the only one left and sends in both the NK and the Block and the Tracker follows him without being blocked? That's pretty much game over.

Yeah, Watcher probably does work better, plus it increases the chances of Town not getting a result if they target the NK.

[ortolan]

Follow The Cop

9 players

2x mafia goons
1x cop
2x beloved princess millers
4x vanilla townies

cop head start

edit: beloved princesses only give the scum an extra kill, the cop only gets one investigation. They only trigger doublekill if they are lynched, not nightkilled.

I

think

the best strategy here is to lynch normally day 1, and if someone is driven to claim that claims princess or cop, lynch someone else (obv). Then, Day 2 have both princesses claim and cop claim her result. Thoughts?

If you ended up with two VTs dead on first day/night, then 1 or 2 of the scum also claim beloved princess. If only one claims you end up with a 1/3 chance of hitting scum out of them, assuming the cop didn't inspect the scum who fake-claimed vanilla. Assuming they didn't then if you hit town (2/3 chance) then town loses instantly. If they did then you lynch a scumbag, cop dies and you end up in 5 player and the same choice between 2 beloved princesses and one scum, where if you choose wrong you lose. I can't see how this approach helps town in the slightest.

[ElectricBadger]

Follow The Cop

9 players

2x mafia goons
1x cop
2x beloved princess millers
4x vanilla townies

cop head start

edit: beloved princesses only give the scum an extra kill, the cop only gets one investigation. They only trigger doublekill if they are lynched, not nightkilled.

So basically a nerfed cop and potential double-kills for the mafia. It's a REALLY brutal scenario for town. Two mislynched BP's = 6 dead townies = probable scum win. Assuming one scum fake claims, town has a 2/3*1/2=33% chance of ending in such a situation, without even addressing the other scum.

I think removing the BP's and having them just millers would be a much better balance.

[Elmo]

Follow The Cop

Should probably be run at least once for sheer comedy value.

Bonus points if you make the princess millers bulletproof.