A Clash of Kings - A Divided Kingdom

[LimMePls]

Someone send servants to start preparing the Tower of the Hand, it looks like Percy will be taking residence there soon.

Kleederac's OMGUS on Drip and his severe AtE in this post are not points in his favour. I find Drip's main point against him (that his townread of Richard was strategic in nature) somewhat persuasive after re-reading the Richard wagon. Still, I want to see where his case against CMAR goes, and am witholding judgement for now.

@Percy: I'm not quite sure what to make of this. What does his case against CMAR have to do with his other very scummy behavior? When you say you want to see where the case on CMAR goes, do you mean you want more from Kleedrac on the matter, or you just want to see more discussion about CMAR?

[Mikujin]

@Mikujin: Do you have any other suspects on the Richard wagon than vez?

I wasn't specifically analyzing the Richard wagon to find suspects. Vez caught my entirely entirely separate from the wagon. However, I'll go back to when the Richard wagon started up an see if anything strikes me as particularly suspect.

And in reference to your previous statement (in the same post) regarding me: yes, I've realized my own bandwagon vote on Richard was tactless; I've apologized since for doing such rather than doing the seemingly daunting task of reading everything I'd missed.

Preview Edit:
Ok, after taking a quick look over a few of the bandwagoners:
- danakillsu: I've previously stated my suspicions of dana (all explained in a previous post)
- Deer: He's gone now, so the only thing we have to go off are his first few posts. He certainly seemed quick to jump on the defensive when prodded a bit by Drippereth, and his "reasoning" for voting Richard seemed little more than an excuse to hop aboard a good wagon.
- Migwelloni: his "I'm late to the party!" self-joke-vote seemed a little... odd, but the only thing I really dislike is his lurking. We're now 20 pages in and he's still only managed two posts - one to jokevote, one to hop on a bandwagon.

I didn't really find anyone else that drew my attention all that much. I'm still trying to get a feel for reading people out. Conversely,I'm quite confident in my top picks for town at this point, which are: Percy, Drippereth, and MacavityLock - in that order. They're all taking a unique approach to how they address people, but for the most part all seem pretty objective in what they've been saying.

[Eddard Stark]

Vote count 1.14: The

"I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children."

votecount

.

Lynch Count

Super Smash Bros. Fan (1) -

Unsight

RichardGHP (2) -

Raivann, migewelloni

CryMeARiver (1) -

Hasdgfas

Drippereth (2) -

Benmage, Kleedrac

Vezopiraka (2) -

Hayker, Mikujin

Hayker (3) -

Percy, Axelrod, MacavityLock

danakillsu (2) -

xvart, Paranoia

Kleedrac (7) -

Drippereth, LynchMePls, Super Smash Bros. Fan, danakillsu, RichardGHP, vezopiraka, I doubt it

Mikujin (1) -

MagnaofIllusion

Unsight (2)

Mina, Locke Lamora

Not voting to Lynch (3) - CryMeARiver, Rifka Vivieka, CCARaven4

Hand of the King Count

xvart (2) -

xvart, Kleedrac

CryMeARiver (2) -

CryMeARiver, Raivann

RichardGHP (1)-

RichardGHP

Benmage (1) -

Benmage

Drippereth (3) -

Rifka Viveka, Danakillsu, Drippereth

Percy (8) -

hasdgfas, Mikujin, MagnaofIllusion, MacavityLock, Percy, vezopiraka, I doubt it, Super Smash Bros. Fan

Mina (2) -

Paranoia, Locke Lamora

Not voting to Raise (7) - Unsight, Migwelloni, Hayker, Mina, CCARaven4, Axelrod, LynchMePls

With 26 alive, it takes 14 to lynch and raise.

The deadline for today's lynch is

10:00pm EST on Tuesday the 22nd of June

. You can view a countdown to the deadline

here

.

[Unsight]

I find that Unsight has been picking up on scummy things that I agree with, but does not appear to be following up on players at all. Mina picked up on a similar thing here - it seems a bit like he/she? is spotting one scummy thing, declaring that player to be scum and then moving on. The lack of content doesn't help this, obviously, but I find the apparent lack of desire to question players or follow up on initial suspicion to be scummy.

Vote: Unsight

I'd back a lynch on any of the above, but Unsight seems to me to be the most likely scum trying to coast, firing off some good points but not backing it up with genuine interest in the players they're attacking.

"does not appear to be following up on players at all"
"I find the apparent lack of desire to question players or follow up on initial suspicion to be scummy"
"not backing it up with genuine interest in the players they're attacking"

My original vote for SSBF was based on the idea that SSBF was defending him by attacking Eliball (uncharacteristic of his ISO) and later reinforced by MacavityLock's odd treatment of him. These aren't things that SSBF can explain away to my satisfaction. It was and still is true that if RichardGHP flips scum, it's pretty likely they all will. However, RichardGHP's claim is very believable and his play so far has been consistent with his play in Mafia 110 even to the point of almost being lynched and claiming Day 1. That rules out scum buddying scum but not scum buddying town. It also leaves MacavityLock's odd treatment of SSBF. To this point MacavityLock is still slinging mud at SSBF asking people to convince him but without following it up with a vote. Again, this isn't something SSBF can explain away and MacavityLock isn't going to come out and say "Gee folks, I sure am distancing pretty hard."

I wasn't being quiet because I was coasting or lacked "genuine interest," I was very interested. I just wasn't shouting out questions as the information was already being provided by MacavityLock. There's also the fact that RichardGHP was a terrific wagon I didn't have a strong read on prior to the claim with a potentially informative scumflip--made it better to let the wagon run its course while I looked at the people on the wagon.

I'm doing more reading than writing but I'm definitely not disinterested nor coasting. If you have questions, ask away.


"I find that Unsight has been picking up on scummy things that I agree with"

Thanks for this at least.

[Benmage]

Internets finally back...here's the post i had in action when everything went fubar, i know i'm a few pages back:


@I doubt it First are you an alt? If you are not, here’s some initial sincere advice: this game is out of your league and you should seek to be replaced asap and join a newbie game. Moreover regardless of alignment you are probably going to be lynched soon because Oh My God U Suck, pissing off whichever people/side you are on.

Also it’s just generally wise to not call someone out when you basically are guilty of ….sucking. Now then:

I’m gonna give you the opportunity here to tuck your tail between your legs and walk away…do not talk to me again, unless I talk to you first.

Unvote
Vote: Benmage

Well we can start with that this is an emotional response. Which more than likely has no logical foundation, therefore is a poor move and makes you look bad.

Plus, what reason would he have to threaten me like that when all I did was ask a simple question? He's scum.

There was no threat chief...there was sound advice.

Just want to make this clear to everyone. I am not defending Benmage, I am just trying to find faults with I doubt it's case on Benmage.

Pffftbb...you defending me. Don't listen to those cup-cakes that cry when one person defends another...We should all be on a Crusade against stupidity.

Your case on Benmage is overall, poorly executed. There are good cases and bad cases and you've just made a bad one. Scummy one even.

QFT (btw loved the color scheme)

Allrighty then..let’s go see what spawned this

Benmage: Looking at his posts in ISO, it's a whole load of 1)setup speculation, 2)role fishing and 3)discussion about raising, plus other 4)fluff posts, but 5)very little scumhunting. 6)Who's scum besides Drippereth?

I wish there was an emoticon that hangs your head into your hand-half covering your eyes with a slight shake of the head and an exasperating sigh. (Doing it now).
1. And how is this scummy? Link or quote me one thing about “setup-speculation” I did that could be construed as scummy….Even if its subjective and your opinion please show me.
2. Where did I openly role-fish? After Vez’s softclaim? Or for clarity with Rich’s claim…Again where is the scumminess. How do I make your list but Vez the culprit, or CMaR with his “breadcrumb” go unnoticed.
3. What?? This must be false, unless you are referring to my iso 0/1…where I raise myself…?? Anything more to this amazing point *sarcasm*.
4. Uhhh sure I can yield this. (See conclusion)
5. See Conclusion
6. Yes to Drip…I also answer a question by Mina where I state CMaR is scum. I really don’t see a problem anyway we get to lynch one a day. (see conclusion)
Conclusion:
In contrast to point 4/5 and some of 6 I have been one of the more active participants in this game. Which for me is a subjective (soon to be objective) town tell as scum as the less active players. ***Here’s what I have been doing all game. I have been forcing people to explain themselves. I did so with CMaR, Dripp(although he never did, hence the vote) Rifa, Mina and dana…I have not allowed people to make bold persuasive statements (much like the one you just made about me) without explanation. There is no way this forced discussion can be interpreted as “fluff” and has been scum-hunting. This is day 1, there isn’t anything to go on other than discussion, that I, as town, must force. Discussion which I have analyzed and gained in knowledge and scumreads. You are too inexperienced and bad to understand such things.

Note for what it’s worth, I had a town-read on Rich from the get-go(granted I know this can be argued as wifom)...My next move was to analysis the wagon and eye up the lurkers, but have been busy with distractions like yourself, rl, and other games.

Again, please replace out. I’d usually hate to advocate such things as replacing out itself hinders a game and can be a pain for the mod…but the mod should’ve had stricter restrictions on those allowed to sign up. It is in your best and the games best interest. Despite other peoples excessive PTW mentality I enjoy a challenge and beating talent, not a cast of VI’s. If you don’t I’ll probably be forced to do a massive(sarcasm) 5(6) post PBPA of you to get your worthless ass lynched and out of the way.

[Benmage]

^^^Some of thats prolly out of date...gonna do all that catchup too

[Eddard Stark]

The level of personal attacks in this game is of serious concern to the Mods.

We are not happy.

Please refrain from putting a person down based on their percieved levels of intelligence, age or experience.

We understand this is a thin line to walk, due to the need to obtain reads on players. All these things can assist in evaluating posts, but please attempt to walk it.

In short
Attacking posts = good
Attacking people = bad.

Also, please do not encourage active players to replace out.
Flakers and lurkers are thoroughly encouraged to replace out.

[CryMeARiver]

Prod is noted. Tomorrow is my mafia scum day. Trust me.

[hasdgfas]

I didn't really find anyone else that drew my attention all that much. I'm still trying to get a feel for reading people out. Conversely,I'm quite confident in my top picks for town at this point, which are: Percy, Drippereth, and MacavityLock - in that order. They're all taking a unique approach to how they address people, but for the most part all seem pretty objective in what they've been saying.

Why do you feel that throwing out town reads is a good idea? In addition, I don't understand why a unique approach to addressing people and being "objective" in what they're saying(what does that even mean?) means for being town or not. Why could they not do this as scum? Do you have any posts in particular that make you think that?

Here are some questions for you.
What do you think of CMAR?
What do you think of Kleedrac and the fact that his bandwagon has grown so quickly?
What do you think of Richard and his claim?

[Rifka Viveka]

unraise raise percy

In order to comply with my own raising logic

I kinda agree with 479...is that really an unacceptable level of personal attack or the truth?

/sleeptime

[Mikujin]

Why do you feel that throwing out town reads is a good idea? In addition, I don't understand why a unique approach to addressing people and being "objective" in what they're saying(what does that even mean?) means for being town or not. Why could they not do this as scum? Do you have any posts in particular that make you think that?

Do you think calling out town reads are a bad thing? Being objective means they look at things in a non-biased manner; though you're entirely correct scum could do it as well. I'm unconvinced that they're scum at this point, though. As for examples, I'll just let you look up Percy's last content post.

Here are some questions for you.
What do you think of CMAR?
What do you think of Kleedrac and the fact that his bandwagon has grown so quickly?
What do you think of Richard and his claim?

1. I'm not particularly fond of CMAR, to be frank. At this time I'm sitting on the fence as to whether I'd slot him into scum or town. Some of his posting has been a little overzealous, so I'm not sure if he's just eager, or overplaying things.

2. I think Kleedrac got a bad rap quick for being a little overzealous in his own crusade against CMAR. He quickly overreacted to a few proddings, and I'm not sure if he's scum or newbie under pressure. That the bandwagon grew so quickly makes me think people think the former, but it picked up speed just as fast or faster than the bandwagon on Richard, and I think it's a little sketchy. I certainly feel that the personal attacks on this guy are quite unwarranted. I weep for our future when I see shit like this:

I wanted to know Kleedrac's age. He sounds young. If the information on his profile is correct, he's 30?

Unfortunately yes. Yet he sounds like a teen complaining that he doesn't get his way. Funny part is that I'm almost twice as young as he is (Just finished 10th grade) and I try to act like an adult.

Personal attacks in any game are pathetic. I'm glad the mod called people out on this crap.

3. I'm still not sure about Richard. His claim certainly seems legit, but claims can't always be trusted. It might just be a really good fakeclaim for all we know. I've been hesitant to trust Richard at all; something about his play just irks me. Can't put my finger on it. With his claim on the board, I'm just fine trying to find someone else to lynch on D1, but I certainly wouldn't rule him out.

[Mina]

Aaaaah, I'm falling further and further behind on this game. Sorry for not contributing more. I've been checking the thread, but I keep on starting huge rambling posts in response to all I've missed, getting distracted, and finally giving up at one or two AM and falling asleep. It's taking all my willpower not to crawl into bed right now.

Screw this. There was more I wanted to comment on (still haven't said what I wanted to say to SSBF and LynchMePls, and Raivann and Cow have caught my attention). But I'll just post what I have for now. I'm most likely going to move my vote tomorrow when I'm more coherent.

---------------------------
1) To be honest, I'm really not liking some of the reasoning people are throwing around. I feel as though some people are latching onto easy surface tells and following the crowd. Meh, I shouldn't talk, given what a craptastic game I'm playing. I'm going to do a huge reread tomorrow, because I haven't synthesized most of the information in this thread.

2) It occurred to me that Mikujin's sudden jump in play-level might be to stave off the wagon on him, but other than that I've liked his recent posts. I'm glad to see that I misjudged him. Kleedrac is...meh. Not sure what to make of him. He came across as a little histrionic and phony in his CMAR case. That said, maybe I'm just a sucker for AtEs, but I can believe his explosion under pressure is coming from inexperienced town. It sounded very genuine. I suppose he could also be frustrated scum annoyed by the case on him, but...again, meh. I'm not quite sold on the Kleedrac wagon. (Yes, I know I'll be called confirmed scum if Kleedrac flips town. :p But those are my wishy-washy thoughts.)

3) Remind me to pay attention to how people react to vezopiraka when I do my full reread tomorrow. I find it really weird how vezo is so blatantly jumping on every single bandwagon regardless of its merit and inconsistent in all his reads, and yet seems to have a lot of defenders. Is he such an easy target that even scum think they'll look bad attacking him?

4)

]

@Mina

: You said you'd like to nuke the "tail end" of the wagon, and I do sympathise, but what do you think of the players who actually provided reasons for contributing to the Richard wagon?

I'll answer your bandwagon question in more detail when I reread the thread tomorrow. Are you looking for a wagon-analysis post along the lines of what SSBF did? Before the dana-vezo-Deer-ani-Mikujin-Migwelloni pile-up, I was sympathetic to the case on Richard, and remember looking at the vote count and explicitly thinking that for a wagon that seemed to rack up so many quick votes, it did look town-driven judging by the people on it.

Percy,

to cure my last vestiges of paranoia about the soon-to-be Hand,

do you have links to any recent scum games you've played?

5)

@I doubt it First are you an alt? If you are not, here’s some initial sincere advice: this game is out of your league and you should seek to be replaced asap and join a newbie game. Moreover regardless of alignment you are probably going to be lynched soon because Oh My God U Suck, pissing off whichever people/side you are on.

Again, please replace out. I’d usually hate to advocate such things as replacing out itself hinders a game and can be a pain for the mod…but the mod should’ve had stricter restrictions on those allowed to sign up. It is in your best and the games best interest. Despite other peoples excessive PTW mentality I enjoy a challenge and beating talent, not a cast of VI’s. If you don’t I’ll probably be forced to do a massive(sarcasm) 5(6) post PBPA of you to get your worthless ass lynched and out of the way.

I'm no saint myself, but I loathe this kind of passive-aggressive bullying. If you think I doubt it's case was so embarrassingly bad that he shouldn't be allowed to play Mafia here, then why did you need a wall devoted almost exclusively to defending yourself from it? And why not let your defence speak for itself?

To explain my "opportunism" charge from before...perhaps "opportunism" was the wrong word. Your initial vote on CMAR was in response to him ending the RVS. But then you left your vote on him well into the serious phase, when people were starting to take stands on actual bandwagons. (Mind you, you eventually moved your vote to Drippereth, who had no votes, so that makes you lessopportunistic.)

Now you've admitted you never suspected him at the time, but afterward you think he's scummy. Fair enough. Do you suspect CMAR just because he was sucking up to Axelrod? Any other reasons? At what precise point in time did you first start thinking CMAR might be scum?

6)

I kinda agree with 479...is that really an unacceptable level of personal attack or the truth?

Rivka, I assume you still suspect Benmage, since you've been sniping at him all day. Do you disagree with I doubt it's case on him, but suspect Benmage for other reasons?

[hasdgfas]

Why do you feel that throwing out town reads is a good idea? In addition, I don't understand why a unique approach to addressing people and being "objective" in what they're saying(what does that even mean?) means for being town or not. Why could they not do this as scum? Do you have any posts in particular that make you think that?

Do you think calling out town reads are a bad thing?

I'm not a fan of it, as I feel it helps scum more than town. Players who are called town by a decent number of people, if they're scum can hide behind other players' town reads, and if they're town make for easy scum targets


@Mina: This may be blasphemy to your playstyle, but maybe refrain from making long rambling posts all the time? It may help you stay caught up.

[LimMePls]

I've been hesitant to trust Richard at all; something about his play just irks me. Can't put my finger on it.

Statements like this set off my scumdar. If Richard gets lynched or NK'd, and flips town, you get to say "see, I wasn't sure about him". If he flips scum you get to say "see, I knew I shouldn't trust him". It seems like fence sitting hidden in "I can't get a read" language.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Magna: Scummier, due to latching on to "parroting" without looking at context, attempting an easy dig.

Hmm I have to ask … did you actually read what I wrote? Here it is for your consumption again –

I did not want people to accuse me of parroting later on,

as I knew I was guilty of parroting some of Drippereth's last post.

Admitting that you were parroting doesn’t make the suspicious nature of it fade away. You’ve simply done the job of anyone who would make the point for them

1. SSBF says he was guilty of parroting (bolded for emphasis). I’m not going to bother to dig up to see what context a player posted in if he himself acknowledges his own play / tell.
2. My statement related solely to his admission and that doing so didn’t clear any possible suspicion.

You assertion that I ‘latched on’ is incorrect. That fact that you label it scummier than someone who specifically admitted to parroting (whether you believe it was or not) is at best opportunistic.

What makes you think that Vezo is simply a village idiot (I assume that's the VI thing)? At this point he hasn't really contributed a lot, but as I'm not familiar with him myself I can't assume he'll never give us anything we can glean knowledge from. I didn't like what he "contributed" and thought it scummy.

My assessment is based on his contributions.

1. His posts lack well defined logic (ISO 7 and 11 stand out)
2. His posts lack substance (most are short 1 liners)
3. He vote hops with abandon, but doesn’t even effectively bandwagon (ISO 19 – 25 as example)
4. Blantant disregard for even properly voting someone (spelling Kleedrac’s name Keldraac)

The one thing that I see as scummy so far (as opposed to poorly done) is his promise to post a case on CMAR in 14 that has never appeared. As I said I don’t see what sort of information we will get out of his lynch at this stage based on his game contributions.

I'm still getting caught up, but first I'm going to unvote: SSBF. No reason that vote should still be there.

You have made 5 posts in 10 Days, most of which contain only 1 or 2 lines with minimal game content. If this game is that overwhelming for you please replace out.

Someone send servants to start preparing the Tower of the Hand, it looks like Percy will be taking residence there soon.

I note you are not currently voting to Raise. How do you feel regarding Percy as the Hand? If you are not in favor of him who would you support and why are you not voting for them?

@I doubt it First are you an alt? If you are not, here’s some initial sincere advice: this game is out of your league and you should seek to be replaced asap and join a newbie game. Moreover regardless of alignment you are probably going to be lynched soon because Oh My God U Suck, pissing off whichever people/side you are on

Question 1 – Why does it matter if he is an alt? Would your criticism be invalid if he was one?
Question 2 – You pick I doubt it as someone way out of their league but don’t address any number of other players who have made less than stellar contributions. Why shouldn’t the presumption be made that this is solely because he chose to attack your play?

I’ll be V/LA from 4pm EDT today until Monday for my usual weekend family duties.

[LimMePls]

I note you are not currently voting to Raise. How do you feel regarding Percy as the Hand? If you are not in favor of him who would you support and why are you not voting for them?

I think Percy will make a good hand. I'm thinking of raising him, but I asked him a question, and I'd like the answer to it first. I was raising you, but I didn't like one of your posts, so I unraised. The post wasn't that far back, you can look back or ISO me to see it. I also thought a Dripp hand would be useful, I was persuaded otherwise, and it looks like many of the players are uncomfortable with a Dripp hand.

At this point the likelihood of Percy not being raised is incredibly slim. I see no urgency in deploying my raise again just yet.

Oh, and SSBF only admitted it would look like parroting when he realized that he was Ninja'd by Dripp. That is why he "admitted" it. And that is why your leaping on it is scummy looking. If you go back and read the 5 posts before and 5 or so after, you'll see that calling SSBF's post there scummy doesn't really make much sense.

[Benmage]

@I doubt it First are you an alt? If you are not, here’s some initial sincere advice: this game is out of your league and you should seek to be replaced asap and join a newbie game. Moreover regardless of alignment you are probably going to be lynched soon because Oh My God U Suck, pissing off whichever people/side you are on

Question 1 – Why does it matter if he is an alt? Would your criticism be invalid if he was one?
Question 2 – You pick I doubt it as someone way out of their league but don’t address any number of other players who have made less than stellar contributions. Why shouldn’t the presumption be made that this is solely because he chose to attack your play?

1- If he is an alt, perhaps this game isn't beyond his scope...if this is his first game on this site, he really should've joined a newbie game first. That's why they are here. Which criticism? Him sucking? Alt or not he sucks. Is it newb suckage or just suckage is what I was getting at...And by him...i mean his posts .
2- I'm sure there are a multitude of guilty parties I haven't been able to analyze...of course I'm going to counter the one accusing me.

[Mikujin]

I've been hesitant to trust Richard at all; something about his play just irks me. Can't put my finger on it.

Statements like this set off my scumdar. If Richard gets lynched or NK'd, and flips town, you get to say "see, I wasn't sure about him". If he flips scum you get to say "see, I knew I shouldn't trust him". It seems like fence sitting hidden in "I can't get a read" language.

I thought it less prudent to leave a question asked of me unanswered, so I gave the most honest one I could.

[Locke Lamora]

I find that Unsight has been picking up on scummy things that I agree with, but does not appear to be following up on players at all. Mina picked up on a similar thing here - it seems a bit like he/she? is spotting one scummy thing, declaring that player to be scum and then moving on. The lack of content doesn't help this, obviously, but I find the apparent lack of desire to question players or follow up on initial suspicion to be scummy.

Vote: Unsight

I'd back a lynch on any of the above, but Unsight seems to me to be the most likely scum trying to coast, firing off some good points but not backing it up with genuine interest in the players they're attacking.

"does not appear to be following up on players at all"
"I find the apparent lack of desire to question players or follow up on initial suspicion to be scummy"
"not backing it up with genuine interest in the players they're attacking"

My original vote for SSBF was based on the idea that SSBF was defending him by attacking Eliball (uncharacteristic of his ISO) and later reinforced by MacavityLock's odd treatment of him. These aren't things that SSBF can explain away to my satisfaction. It was and still is true that if RichardGHP flips scum, it's pretty likely they all will. However, RichardGHP's claim is very believable and his play so far has been consistent with his play in Mafia 110 even to the point of almost being lynched and claiming Day 1. That rules out scum buddying scum but not scum buddying town. It also leaves MacavityLock's odd treatment of SSBF. To this point MacavityLock is still slinging mud at SSBF asking people to convince him but without following it up with a vote. Again, this isn't something SSBF can explain away and MacavityLock isn't going to come out and say "Gee folks, I sure am distancing pretty hard."

I wasn't being quiet because I was coasting or lacked "genuine interest," I was very interested. I just wasn't shouting out questions as the information was already being provided by MacavityLock. There's also the fact that RichardGHP was a terrific wagon I didn't have a strong read on prior to the claim with a potentially informative scumflip--made it better to let the wagon run its course while I looked at the people on the wagon.

I'm doing more reading than writing but I'm definitely not disinterested nor coasting. If you have questions, ask away.


"I find that Unsight has been picking up on scummy things that I agree with"

Thanks for this at least.

It's all very well to say you haven't been doing these things but, unsurprisingly, I can't read your mind. All I get to see is you saying 'that's scummy!' and then going quiet for a while until you spot someone else doing something scummy.

In any case, as you asked so nicely, I'd like to know what you think of the two main trends right now, namely:
1. The Kleedrac lynch
2. Percy for Hand of the King

[Benmage]

Percy made me google Loras...fuckina! Definitely is a homosexual.

[MacavityLock]

Magna: Scummier, due to latching on to "parroting" without looking at context, attempting an easy dig.

Hmm I have to ask … did you actually read what I wrote? Here it is for your consumption again –

I did not want people to accuse me of parroting later on,

as I knew I was guilty of parroting some of Drippereth's last post.

Admitting that you were parroting doesn’t make the suspicious nature of it fade away. You’ve simply done the job of anyone who would make the point for them

1. SSBF says he was guilty of parroting (bolded for emphasis). I’m not going to bother to dig up to see what context a player posted in if he himself acknowledges his own play / tell.
2. My statement related solely to his admission and that doing so didn’t clear any possible suspicion.

You assertion that I ‘latched on’ is incorrect. That fact that you label it scummier than someone who specifically admitted to parroting (whether you believe it was or not) is at best opportunistic.

Magna, the part that interested me most from your post was "the suspicious nature of it". Any parroting that occurred was

not

suspicious, and you trying to make out like it was is rather scummy.

Apologies, but I'm going to be V/LA until late Monday night.

I have not had the opportunity to put my thoughts together re: the Kleedrac wagon yet, and likely won't be able to really sit down and have a chance to do this for a week or so. Very sorry about this.

[xvart]

On Richard's claim, I'm guessing his character is actually his character because Renly is a fairly prominent character and would fit well in this game in terms of flavor. As other's have said, that does not determine alignment. I could easily see this set of characters and abilities fitting in with a scum faction. His ability claim may very well be true. If anyone in Renly's camp (including Ser Loras) flips scum then Richard should be auto-lynched the next day.

@Mikujin (419)

- In those 15 or so pages you found nothing but scummy behavior on Vezo?

I thought it best to make my case against the person I was most suspicious of rather than try to address every individual instance of suspicion I'd have come across in my 17 page read. I figured my most relevant thoughts would be the important ones to share.

When exactly did you become most suspicious of Vezo? If it became midway through your reading wouldn't you already have other thoughts compiled? It appears to me that you went through the ISO of someone and just commented on that person. If you really did a read through I would expect some other analysis besides pretty tame topics of the Raise candidates.

re: Paranoia (436) - I'm really suspicious of this post and the alleged preview edit, especially after it occurred shortly after my preview edit (which I think was the first stated one of the game). I think LMP hit the nail on the head with his comment on the preview edit, but I would like some more explanation on the timeline of this post and the justification behind voting two people in the same post. Were you just trying to give a nod to your agreement on the Kleedrac wagon without actually participating in it?

Why would you want Mina to explain why you did something?

Mina accused me of copying reasons from vezopiraka. I do not see where I parroted vezopiraka. Therefore, I'm wanting evidence from Mina to prove that I was parroting vezopiraka.

But you didn't ask Mina to provide evidence. You asked her to explain why

you

did something, which is close to impossible unless you share a brain or worked it out in scum chatter beforehand.

Now I'd like for you to answer this question. When they're called out for a scummy move, sometimes they don't see it and they need evidence to see that they actually commited a scummy act. What makes this post so different?

The wording of your post.

1. I was attacking the case that I doubt it made on Benmage, not defending Benmage in general.

Potato, pahtato. Is there some reason you think that Benmage can't defend himself?

2. I was explaining to I doubt it that his case on Benmage was very poor. I asked for evidence and he gave me a quote from one of his posts. I then searched Benmage's ISO and found that I doubt it's case on Benmage was mostly flawed and thus I went after I doubt it. Not because I thought Benmage was pro-town (I do, but that wasn't the reason why I attacked I dobut it's case on him), but because I didn't like I doubt it's case on Benmage.

Does I doubt It's recent poor argument change your opinion of him from only slightly suspicious to more suspicious or is your opinion of him the same?

btw, anyone notice how scummy xvart is acting in relation to me? I make three excellent points (if I do say so myself) some of them with questions, and when he pops up again, he talks about only two things.

Hm? Are the three "excellent points" you made the ones in your ISO 15? If so, and even if I agreed that your three points were excellent, does that one post overrule all the scummy votes you've placed and the other things I've laid out?

One was my paranthetical statement in the first point, not the first point itself, and the other was my response to a point somebody ELSE made about my post. In other words, he never dealt with any of my three actual points. Talk about selective responses. Wish I could vote for both him and Kleedrac.

You forgot that I talked about your scummy votes, which you failed to even remotely address. Were those three actual points to me? Either I am not seeing which three points you are referring to or you think that one excellent post should change my opinion of your alignment.

xvart.

[danakillsu]

@xvart
Yes, iso 15. You completely ignored my arguments on the subject of our discussion. No, it's not supposed to change your opinion on me, but it is something you should have answered long ago. Now stop stalling. As for my votes, I don't really get why you think they're scummy, but I've given my reasons for all of them except maybe the Richard one, and there were lots of reasons given by others for him, so there wasn't much new I could say.

[xvart]

Stalling? lol. I didn't realize you expected me to respond to your response to SSBF without being prompted. You do realize that your three points were to SSBF and not me, right?

However, my response that I have apparently been actively trying to avoid:
1. I don't see the link that SSBF claimed at least as far getting Richard to claim. If you and Richard are scumbuddies I would think you would unvote to make sure he didn't claim. In terms of your response, I already said: your confidence that Richard will not flip scum is most concerning to me.
2. Scum wouldn't just haphazardly and immediately hammer someone just because he had the opportunity.
3. I couldn't be more disinterested in debating OMGUS and whether something is or is not OMGUS. I'll leave that up to the people involved. I will ask you why you think his opinions of you are "inherently scummy"?

xvart.

[Unsight]

It's all very well to say you haven't been doing these things but, unsurprisingly, I can't read your mind. All I get to see is you saying 'that's scummy!' and then going quiet for a while until you spot someone else doing something scummy.

In any case, as you asked so nicely, I'd like to know what you think of the two main trends right now, namely:
1. The Kleedrac lynch
2. Percy for Hand of the King

"1. The Kleedrac lynch"

I have mixed thoughts on it.

ISO 3 is bad and ISO 10 is scummy. Sudden tunneling on his attacker is a bad sign as well however Drippereth did misrep Kleedrac's stance on Richard here so it's not wholly OMGUS. Even then, I don't see him scumhunting. Say he's right and Drippereth is scum, that still leaves plenty others and he's not actually looking for any of

them

.

There are really only two reasons I haven't been on his wagon. The first was that he's a newbie. It's fairly common for scum in Newbie games to go after easy lynches because they won't put up a fight and often shoot themselves in the foot under little pressure. It's no different here where we have mixed skill levels. Ironically, Kleedrac killed this sentiment himself in this post recently. The second reason is that SSBF is a better lynch. I believe SSBF's flip will reflect very heavily on MacavityLock. Kleedrac's flip really only says something about the people on the Kleedrac wagon.


"2. Percy for Hand of the King "

I don't really think Hand of the King is that important in itself. It's just a good way to get a sense of peoples' town reads and my read on Percy is a weak one at best.

I agree with his opinions on Raivann and CMAR, but lots of little things bother me about his posts. He keeps making good points about CMAR only to wander away. He side-swipes Axelrod with a buddying accusation to CMAR and then never comes back to it. Neither CMAR nor Axel make his top 3 vote list (Hayker, Mig, and Vezo) and Axel is almost off the radar in ISO 7.

The other things that bug me are the people he's addressing or rather not addressing. He hasn't really thrown any hard questions at Cow, Drippereth, Benmage, or me. He also hasn't even mentioned CCA. Making large walls of text to address just about everyone in the game but leaving certain ones more or less out seems intentionally selective.