A Clash of Kings - A Divided Kingdom

[Eddard Stark]

Um....
How about...
Raivann is actually posting? And Kleedrac has simply given up?

Kleedrac is getting replaced, anyway, so this argument doesn't work.

Are you sure? Eddard Stark doesn't seem to be saying this.

He's being replaced, yes.


Also relevant for anyone who's a fan of the series :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MophfvUlfI

[LimMePls]

Woot, back up and running. Still think the lynch is between Raivann and Kleedrac. I'm going to start a reread, since the game seems to be moving slowly.

[Rifka Viveka]

A:If i thought a player is scum, then another player that i think is scumy attacking him isnt in any way a redeeming factor for that player in a game of this size. Right now im thinking benmage is town though. Not sure where you came up with the rest of the stuff in your post

[MacavityLock]

Back from V/LA, catching up now. Do we really not have post numbers or ability to iso?

[LimMePls]

You can still ISO, but it is a bit clumsy. Just select "Sort by Author" and select go. Then look for where the person you want to ISO is, they should be sorted alphabetically.

Also, does anyone know how to turn off the forced preview if someone posts between when you hit reply and when you submit your message?

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

I noticed that some posts in Page 23 had all first letter in a word captialized. This is annoying and I reported it to the Conversion Problem thread. Hopefully I don't get mod-killed for this and that I get a response. But yeah, I'll probably have to live with this.

@Mina: I'm not going to give Kleedrac the newbie johns obviously, but if you're right, Raivann has absolutely no excuse to play this badly. Let's just say I'm

that close

to changing my vote.

[Drippereth]

WHAAAAAA I'M STILL CAUGHT BY MARATHON CAP LOCKS FEVER.
ALL I WANT TO SAY RIGHT NOW IS THAT RAI IS MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MORE TOWN THAN KLEEDRAC!

[LimMePls]

Finished my re-read, and boy have a got an awesome case for you guys. Witness the following:

Vote: Richard

Hey look, I just left the RVS, no random votes will be accepted from here on out without perfect reasoning. You know why? Because I said so and because I am Great and Badass alligned.

Raise: CryMeABadassRiver

CMAR makes a case on Richard and tries to drag us out of RVS, buying him some distancing and some town-cred. He doesn't actually have any reason to suspect the Richard wagon will actually go all the way, its still RVS.

Vote: Super Smash Bros Fan.

You've never played a game with me so the fact that you know I like long posts indicates you've been heavily Wiki studying other players.

But, that's a good thing, right?

Vote: MagnaofIllusion

Raise: CryMeABadassRiver

Then Axelrod raises CMAR, but makes no comment on the CMAR case on Richard. Due to Dripp's continued probbing of Richard plus the policy lynch link he brought up, Richard's wagon takes off. CMAR gets really quiet. Pretty much Dripp and others do all the rest of the work from here.

Welcome Hasdgfas!

Unvote;

Vote: Hasdgfas

Sorry, but Dr. Modem was scummy and then quit, so you are starting out in the hole.

My problem with the Drippereth account is that they can post contradictory things like:

Assuming a doctor is in the settup, I will be amaza-suprised if the double-voter isn't protected. So raising up whoever you think is the most pro-town is still the way imo.

and

I can't see why a double vote would be so precious...

and you can't really call them out for a contradiction, because it could just be that the two heads have a different opinion on the issue.

I'm trying to look at Richard. I don't especially care for his style, but I'm not convinced it's scummy yet.

I actually like this comeback here:

I'm going to lol when Drippereth is wrong - AGAIN

Townies don't taunt in this way. Scumz do.

WELL I GUESS THERE'S A FIRST TIME FOR EVERYTHING BECAUSE I, A TOWNIE, JUST TAUNTED IN THAT WAY.

Which strikes the right tone of annoyance and indignation for a Town.

Axelrod doesn't vote the whole time the Richard wagon is growing, his "RVS" vote is still in place. When Dr. Modem is replaced, he then immediately votes Cow calling Dr. Modem scummy. But he hadn't actually made any posts about Dr. Modem to that point. In the same post he also defends Richard.

It was most likely a pressure vote, "Cow".

If not, then what Cow said. Voting for a playerslot just as it changes hands is bad.

Richard now defends Axelrod, although he gives himself an "out" by saying "If not..."

boy that makes me feel welcome. I'm going to point out that newbies often replace out when they're under pressure because they don't know what else to do. I mean, he's Townsperson. Plus, he said he was too busy to play, so I'm calling party foul on this vote, because he didn't disappear, he replaced out.

Well, I didn't say he "disappeared" did I? I said he quit. Which is true. Not much of a reason to vote, but I wasn't especially feeling it

more

on anyone else so, there you go.

@Axelrod: I don't see any scumhunting from you. What are your thoughts on scumminess of certain players? For instance, Dr Modem. You say he's scummy, but don't give reasons. You didn't comment on them in any of your previous posts. What are they? Why did it take you so long to change your vote?

Dr. Modem did nothing this game. He "random" voted for me (never a good thing) and made no other votes. He made a few attempts at what appeared to be jokes without commenting about anything or anyone else. He got overly hostile and defensive when critized, and then he quit. So, really, what's not to like there?

In the words of John Paul Jones: I have not yet begun to scum-hunt!

Seriously, it's early.

also @Axelrod: COuld you please explain the contradiction in the two posts of Drippereth that you claimed were contradictory?

Well, in the first quote she says she assumes the Double-Voter will be Doc protected this game. Presumably one would think this because one thinks this is a role worth protecting?

In the second quote she says she doesn't see what's so precious about a Double Vote - like it's no big deal (and, presumably, not worthy of auto-Doc protection). Like, that seems fairly obvious to me. Not you?

Unvote

I do appreciate that you have at least put in some work already, which is more than several people.

Cow and others call foul on this and Axelrod unvotes. This is also the first time he even tries to explain why he finds Dr. Modem scummy. He then makes the mother of all strange comments with his "I have not yet begun to scum-hunt". Ya, we noticed.

Claim: Renly Baratheon

I am Robert's youngest brother. I have decided to be King, but their are currently bigger problems to attend to.

If I die, Ser Loras is able to perform one kill to attemp to avenge me. Therefore, I know Ser Loras is in the game. However, I do not know who (s)he is and what alignment they are. If Ser Loras dies before I do, nothing happens upon my death.
_______________________________________________________________________
Rereading this morning.

Shat,

Unvote

Quickly analyzing bandwagoning reasons

Richard wagon continues to grow, and Richard finally is forced to claim. WITHIN 2 MINUTES OF CLAIMING CMAR UNVOTES. He built this wagon, seemed pretty hot about it at first, vanishes when it picks up steam, and then immediately bails when Richard claims with practically 0 time to actually decided if he buys the claim or not.

Dana sticks out to me as scum, btw.

"Oh look guys Richard's at L-1 so I'll unvote to show everyone how townie I am"

Classic scum tactic.

As soon as people start hesitating on Richard, he seizes an opportunity to paint dana as scum for his unvote, hoping to move people off him, but doesn't do the same thing to CMAR who is MUCH more hypocritical/scummy for his unvote.

Okay, I will get caught up soon, but to those voting to raise axelrod, I would just like to say that whoever gets the double vote will likely die quickly and axelrod already endorsed me getting the double vote. I'm willing to take that sacrifice for town. I'll admit axel seems to be a very good player and I'll likely take his advice into consideration when using a double vote. Just putting it out there.
By the way, glad to see the Richard wagon is taking off. Pillars of the evil king's castle are finally falling 2day.

Uh, yuck?

Unraise: CryMeARiver

Like, I don't usually mind when people suck up to me, but this is kind of over the top. Also, it's

hardly

like I'd firmly decided you were my guy here.

To Richard: do you know if this bonus kill is immediate, or takes place during the subsequent night? For instance, were you lynched, would Loras kill someone before the Night technically started, or would it happen as a regular action during the Night. And I assume he can't hold it for later, but has to use it right then? Could he elect NOT to use it?

Mod

: I'm pretty sure I'm not voting for anyone.

~Thanks - fix'd I hope

CMAR makes an incredibly scummy looking post that he later claims was a bread crumb. Why is he breadcrumbing at this point? Maybe his scum buddy just claimed without breadcrumbs, and he realizes he should set some up? Axelrod UNRAISES CMAR for the scummy "breadcrumb" post, probably realizing the he needs to distance himself from CMAR.

I'm going to go ahead and /barn Percy at least as far as Hayker goes.

Hayker made This intoductory post in which he purported to do an analysis of Vez (perhaps one of the softest targets in the game). And also says:

Note:I have read the thread and have more thoughts then this. I think keep one post to one topic is simple though...and I'm working on being simple.(walks away with a chain rattling)

These further thoughts remain, as yet, unrevealed. Instead, all Hayker's subsequent posts have been extremely short, two questions to other players and a sarcastic comment. Look, here they are:

One - why was this post needed indeed?

Two - criticizing a bandwaggoner, in the least helpful way.

Three - odd question to 1/2 the Hydra head. Wants DGB's opinion on his play so far. Why? And why specifically DGB?

Vote: Hayker

Mainly I want these other thoughts Hayker supposedly had/has, but has yet to share with us.

Axelrod then seizes on Percy's Hayker case as a way to further derail the Richard wagon, and basically just parrots Percy.

Raivann, you have absolutely no right to call my claim BS with no reasoning. If you're going to attempt to tear my claim to shreds, at least say why. Jesus.

He sounds like he just want rid of a townie, and I'd wager that he knows who Ser Loras is.

Richard then makes this crazy post calling out Raivann and claims Raivann "knows who Loras is". The only way this would make sense is if Raivann is Loras, and if that is the case why would Richard want to point that out to everyone else? This makes absolutely 0 sense.

There's just way too much "certainty" floating around in this thread. I absolutely hate it when people just start calling other people "scum" and act like they have it all figured out and it's case-closed when the truth is they know

nothing

. They have a

hunch

. An

opinion

.

I recognize this is a "style" thing for a lot of people, and they'll flip from calling someone obv.scum to deciding they are clearly town at the drop of a hat, and then immediately press on with their next "obviously scum" target, conveniently ignoring how horribly wrong they were the last time they called someone "obv.scum" and it drives me

nuts

. Please STFU or use some damn qualifiers. When you do this you are either being dishonest or you are just being a moron.

/rant

I don't know why I bothered to type this out. Maybe I'm having a bad day or something.

I know why you bothered. It's called active lurking. You go on to make 0 useful posts from this point on.

Raise Percy

Still worried about his image, he hops on the clearly pro-town Percy raising.

Given all of the above evidence, I find a Richard/Axelrod/CMAR scum team very likely. I'm betting Renly is a scum leader fakeclaim, and one of the other scum fake claims for their team is Loras. I think the best play is to lynch Richard, and if his flip confirms my suspicion, we're in really good shape. If it is a mislynch, while that would suck, we do in fact still get the vig kill and we get to clean up all the mess that has ensued from the Richard situation. Also, if Loras is out there, and it isn't CMAR or Axelrod that could prove my case wrong, although I'm not sure I'd want that person to claim.

Unvote
Vote: Richard

[MagnaofIllusion]

Welcome to Julianvonwolfe and Kinetic!

Percy made me google Loras...fuckina! Definitely is a homosexual.

How does this qualify as anything but filler? Or do you think Richard’s claim is more credible given the fact that it is flavour correct?

Magna, the part that interested me most from your post was "the suspicious nature of it". Any parroting that occurred was not suspicious, and you trying to make out like it was is rather scummy.

Disagree with your conclusion as I said in the quote – it was simply an observation that admitting to a behaviour does not inherently make it less suspicious. Ordinarily parroting is generally considered a not pro-town move. Relative to this circumstance SSBF admitted to the behaviour, regardless of whether he cross-posted or not. Let me ask you this – why would SSBF admit that he was parroting if he wasn’t? I don’t see any logical reason for a town player to admit to something if they didn’t believe they were doing it.

unvote, Vote: Kleedrac choo choo!. Someone made a good point about yeah he was pissed but that could just as easily come from scum

Maybe it was Drip-Hydra in the post right above yours

But explain to me how that small point alone is enough to justify switching your vote. Previous to this vote you stated that you were “you believed him”.

Super smash goes out of his way to appear townie which makes him scummy.

Care to demonstrate how is his “going out of his way to appear townie”?

Standing by for hammer duty I prefer raivann lynch. He was the original scum deer and still is

What do you find so important about being the hammer on a lynch? What does it benefit town that you be on “hammer” duty?

If Kleedrac is replaced with someone decent, I'd be just as down for a Raivann lynch I guess. But my point about the timing is still valid.

What about the replacement for Kleedrac makes what you say is his scummy play disappear?

[Rifka Viveka]

What do you find so important about being the hammer on a lynch? What does it benefit town that you be on “hammer” duty?

Cause on mafiascum.net, there is an incredible amount of players willing to vote but not to hammer the same player. Thats my intention

[Drippereth]

What do you find so important about being the hammer on a lynch? What does it benefit town that you be on “hammer” duty?

Cause on mafiascum.net, there is an incredible amount of players willing to vote but not to hammer the same player. Thats my intention

Are you kidding me? Everyone wants to hammer. Who doesn't have hammerlust?

Something very fishy here, either you wincon requires that you hammer, or you're scum and looking for excuses to hammer.

[Rifka Viveka]

Are those really the only 2 possibilities? I disagree, obv. How can you say everyone has hammerlust and its very fishy at the same time?

[Drippereth]

It's fishy because: why would you shout out that you want to grab the hammer... we're not at L-2 anybody. Why are you so special that we should wait for you for hammering?

I think you're scum and your preempting suspicion for your future scumhammers.

[Rifka Viveka]

Why the need to make shit up? I never said to wait. If you can lynch raivan before i get on, more power to you.

[MacavityLock]

I do find SSBFs ''parrotgate'' suspicious, but not because parroting is suspicious itself, or more accurately since there was a ninja post, clearly no parroting happened at all. Instead, in his haste to accept 'guilt' for this action, and quickly get out in front of what was not scummy at all he reveals IMO a awareness of his own scumminess i usually see out of scum players-scum often see themselves and partners as scummier than they really look for example.

Yeah, this is pretty much exactly what I meant.

@MacavityLock

: Could you elaborate on why you chose Hayker over SSBF?

One of the biggest reasons that I think that SSBF is scummy is his massive overuse of FoSes. As I said previously, I often don't see the purpose of FoSes, and his wide range read to me like he was just trying to find some case, any case that would stick. However, I also recognize that this could be a difference in playstyle. Some people are FoS-heavy as both scum and town. I wanted meta-based opinions from anyone who could provide before making a decision. Someone (LynchMePlz I believe?) did in fact state that this was part of SSBF's meta. I'd love to hear from other people on the matter, but that at least tempers my suspicion a bit while I continue to do my own digging.

Raivann

...
- thinks it's a good idea to

lynch a townie

just to enable a one-shot vig

You want a slip, just look right here.

Magna, the part that interested me most from your post was "the suspicious nature of it". Any parroting that occurred was not suspicious, and you trying to make out like it was is rather scummy.

Disagree with your conclusion as I said in the quote – it was simply an observation that admitting to a behaviour does not inherently make it less suspicious. Ordinarily parroting is generally considered a not pro-town move. Relative to this circumstance SSBF admitted to the behaviour, regardless of whether he cross-posted or not. Let me ask you this – why would SSBF admit that he was parroting if he wasn’t? I don’t see any logical reason for a town player to admit to something if they didn’t believe they were doing it.

This is really weasel-y. By saying that pointing X out doesn't reduce the suspicion inherent in X, you strongly implied that X was suspicious. However, in this case, X should not have been considered suspicious, so you implying there was amounts to a bad case, and I definitely think that particular post was made in a rather sly manner. As to the question, as far as I remember, SSBF admitted only to the appearance of parroting. He couldn't have parroted, due to the nature of the cross-posting. I think you're trying to squeeze through what little cracks remain before your argument locks you into an obviously incorrect and scummy position, and you're failing.

Unvote. Vote: Magna

with Miku not far behind.

Lack of ability to iso makes it not feasible for me to do a deep Kleedrac read right now. I'm not particularly enamored of the Raiv wagon.

[xvart]

@xvart
You're right... it was SSBF that was ignoring my points. Sorry for the misundertanding. But didn't you get involved in that conversation, anyway? Or is that just me?

I don't remember but it is possible I got "involved" in the conversation, at least in commenting on something you said. I don't see how commenting on one aspect of someone's post requires me to respond to the

entire

breadth of the post.

CATCHING UP!

Call me a sucker, but I believe Kleedrac here. He seems to be genuinely pissed.

Scum can be genuinely pissed too. Anyway, I recall thinking you were scum somewhere earlier but I forgot why. I'll figure it out later.

Did you ever figure out why you thought Raivan was scummy way back when? Also, how does this argument play into your recent shout out that Raivan is sooooo much more town than Kleedrac?

Sorry I read Dana's post wrong, I'm buzzing pretty good right now.
I thought he meant even if he's town it wont hurt us and typed scum because of a scumslip.... ugh.
I would rather we lynch Richard, but it doesn't seem to be going that way, so I hopped on popular wagon. Do I believe we have better chance of hiting scum with Richard lynch? Yes. But I'll go with the flow D1.

So your reasoning behind your vote was incorrect, yet you leave the vote anyways? Please explain.

Standing by for hammer duty I prefer raivann lynch. He was the original scum deer and still is

This looks to me as scum acknowledging a scumbuddy with a wagon, but only going to jump on the wagon when it is too late to turn it around. In the event that another wagon forms, the bus was already noted as being supportive of the lynch.

xvart.

[Mikujin]

Um....
How about...
Raivann is actually posting? And Kleedrac has simply given up?

Kleedrac's giving up is somewhat understandable, though not entirely excusable. There were a lot of personal attacks that followed the questions of both his case and character, and while we're past that point now (and hopefully don't go back there), if I were in his shoes I might have been just as discouraged by it. If he rejoins us, awesome, if not... well, that's the way things go sometimes.

That said, while Kleedrac's excuse for lack of posting is poor, Raivann has no excuse for posting poorly. He's flip-flopped, laid accusations without making cases, and tossed votes around in a manner contradictory to previous statements. He is certainly more scummy than Kleedrac at this point.

Remember: Quantity != Quality. Raivann may have more activity, but his posting certainly isn't thought out.

And Mikujin was bashing Raivann.

I fail to see how making a case out on Raivann should be interpreted as "bashing" him. Care to explain?

Also:

Raivann

...
- thinks it's a good idea to

lynch a townie

just to enable a one-shot vig

You want a slip, just look right here.

Read my case on Raivann prior to that list, then re-read the list. Raivann had prior stated that he thought regardless of whether Richard was town our not, we should lynch him anyways because it would give us a one-shot vig. It's not a slip, it was a statement of Raivann's beliefs based on his own prior statements.

[MacavityLock]

Also:

Raivann

...
- thinks it's a good idea to

lynch a townie

just to enable a one-shot vig

You want a slip, just look right here.

Read my case on Raivann prior to that list, then re-read the list. Raivann had prior stated that he thought regardless of whether Richard was town our not, we should lynch him anyways because it would give us a one-shot vig. It's not a slip, it was a statement of Raivann's beliefs based on his own prior statements.

Yes, "whether Richard was town or not". Raiv didn't say that we should "lynch a townie" to enable the vig. There is a difference.

[Mikujin]

Also:

Raivann

...
- thinks it's a good idea to

lynch a townie

just to enable a one-shot vig

You want a slip, just look right here.

Read my case on Raivann prior to that list, then re-read the list. Raivann had prior stated that he thought regardless of whether Richard was town our not, we should lynch him anyways because it would give us a one-shot vig. It's not a slip, it was a statement of Raivann's beliefs based on his own prior statements.

Yes, "whether Richard was town or not". Raiv didn't say that we should "lynch a townie" to enable the vig. There is a difference.

If he's willing to lynch Richard - regardless of whether he's town or scum - then that's certainly the implication I'd take away from it.

[LimMePls]

Lack of ability to iso makes it not feasible for me to do a deep Kleedrac read right now. I'm not particularly enamored of the Raiv wagon.

You can iso. I've done it already, and I've already said how. I feel like I'm talking to myself.

Go to the bottom, go to Sort By: and select the "Author" option. Then just go through the pages, as all the posts will no be sorted by author name first, then chornological order. Just go to the first page with a post by the person you want to iso, and start reading from their first post.

[MacavityLock]

Yes, I know how, but navigating around using this technique is annoying and time-consuming, but if I have to, I will do it. But it's not going to happen right now.

[LimMePls]

This makes 0 sense to me. It takes maybe a minute more to navigate to the iso on a particular player, and then once you are there it takes 0 more effort to read from the start of their iso to the end. I understand you don't like the change, and hopefully they'll implement it back to the way it was, but I do not understand an unwillingness to iso if it could be helpful to the town and it would cost you maybe 1 minute more of your time. In the grand scheme of how much time it takes to do an iso, 1 minute is practically nothing.

In other news, my case a few posts back seems to be getting entirely ignored. This makes me a sad panda.

[Percy]

Hi all, post incoming within 24 hours.

[danakillsu]

What about the replacement for Kleedrac makes what you say is his scummy play disappear?

Sigh. Why doesn't anyone get what I've said from the beginning? MY POINT IS THAT KLEEDRAC-SCUM is roughly equal to Raivann-scum, and both have good reasoning for their wagons. Therefore if Kleedrac is replaced, making "Kleedrac"-town at least as good as Raivann-town, then I'd be fine with lynching either.

I fail to see how making a case out on Raivann should be interpreted as "bashing" him. Care to explain?

Did you read the context in which I said that? I was saying that you were bashing him for messing up on what I said. I will stick with that statement, though it may not mean the same thing to you that it means to me. I meant that you were calling him scummy for something that wasn't scummy in my book, and doing it with gusto.

[Unsight]

Not enough time to reread everything and comment tonight. Will be back tomorrow.