A Clash of Kings - A Divided Kingdom

[Eddard Stark]

Budja replaces Kleedrac as of now

[Rifka Viveka]

@julien;i dont think i brought this up before, but one point i found very weird about MacavityL-SSBF was SSBFs repeated praising of MLs play as not making any scumtells. When im playing scum, i never think about how well a prob-town player is playing, because obv they wont make big scumtells as town besides minor slips etc. SSBF looks almost like he knows ML is scum to be so amazed at how well he is playing.

on the drippy topic, (DGB) thinks raivan is town because im bussing scum(yet doesnt want to lynch the bussed scum? hmmm) and elli doesnt seem to want raivan lynch\push me as scum(or atleast, didnt say anything of relevance in the last post) combined with drippy pushing deer early then forgetting about it later, makes me see drippy-raivan connection

richard is pathetic but i believe his claim and with that his play can be interpreted as some species of town

[danakillsu]

@danakillsu: You started with an "IF you find Raivann as scummy as Kleedrac", a hypothetical. You also say his messing up is a null tell.
Then, you say you would be down for a Raivann lynch - you guess.
And now: your scumread on Raivann has always been equal to your scumread on Kleedrac?
You're retconning your read here. I also don't like this:
danakillsu wrote:
Raivann is at least almost as scummy as Kleedrac
At least almost?! More weaselling.

Yes, my scumread on Raivann has always been approximately equal to my scumread on Kleedrac. There's nothing false there. And as far as "at least almost", you got a better way to say that? I think Raivann could be said to be as scummy as Kleedrac, but not scummier. I personally think he's a little bit less scummy, which is why I'm voting for Kleedrac. Why can't you seem to wrap your mind around that? Since everyone's calling you smart town and raising you, you seem to have gotten a bit cocky and seem to think you can just call the shots and everyone will follow you.

[MagnaofIllusion]

First posting to say I’m here. I didn’t have a chance to post my usual weekend V/LA Friday. I’ll have a catch-up post Monday but wanted to address the following.

@MagnaofIllusion: Your vote is still on SSBF. Do you think parrotgate is further evidence of SSBF scum? Why are you still voting SSBF?

My vote is not on SSBF – look at the Mod’s vote counts. Since then I had voted for Richard and then Miku. A good amount of my content apparently got eaten in the move. Review my ISO in the archive of the old forum as compared to this one. I think intervention on the part of Mith / other admins is probably warranted.

[vezokpiraka]

I want to hear from budja and what he thinks about keeldrac.

@budja: Do you feel like keeldrac is noob town or noob scum?

[LimMePls]

Nice post Julian.

@JVW: Would you care to comment on the Richard situaion? If you have already, I'd be happy for you to just point me to the post. What do you think about CMAR?

[I doubt it]

@I doubt it: Why shouldn't he defend himself? Do you believe there is such a thing as overdefensiveness? If so, how is it defined?

There's a difference between defending when being attacked, which is only sensible, and being overly cautious on a constant basis. SSBF looks like scum who's trying really hard not to look scummy. JVW put it better than I could:

The final reason I shall give for SSBF's scumminess is his interactions with Benmage. Rifka has already commented on this, pointing out that not only is Benmage made scummier by SSBF answering for him, but that SSBF was doing just what he said he wasn't - defending Benmage! In this contradiction we see SSBF squirming and displaying self-consciousness, something we also see in Parrotgate. Scum has more need to be careful than town, since they cannot afford to be lynched quite as much as town can, and I think we see signs of SSBF-scum trying desperately to make sure he doesn't cast the wrong impression.

I'm now thinking we might do better with a Raivann/SSBF lynch. Sure Kleedrac looks scum and might easily be, but who would his flip imply as his partner? He's got almost zero interaction with anyone, whereas Raivann, or even better, SSBF have a lot of links to look into. I could buy Kleedrac as a frustrated townie and give Budja a chance.

Unvote

Vote: Raivann

CMAR looks like an extreme case of lurkerscum. He needs to be pressured for content come day 2, but unless we get a deadline extension, he's not as good of a lynch as Raivann or SSBF.

[Budja]

Hello.

Just a heads up, I will have semi-limited access for 2 days. I will try to post but won't have time to read properly.

[julienvonwolfe]

Nice post Julian.

@JVW: Would you care to comment on the Richard situaion? If you have already, I'd be happy for you to just point me to the post. What do you think about CMAR?

Sure, in my first catchup post I said this:

First, in a skim-read through I caught that Richard claimed Renly. I believe this claim, due to the reasons already stated by others at the time: it relies on another and can therefore be tested. Also, Richard's play strikes me as frustrated and emotional newbie town rather than scum, but that's gut, admittedly. This rather colours my view of the developing Richard wagon that we see in pages 1 - 10, and makes me view those critics of him with some disfavour as it's very likely that a fair number of scum were on the wagon. I'll post better thoughts of that wagon when I get to it.

Since posting that my thoughts haven't really changed; despite what we might call Richard's best efforts. In addition to the good role claim and the gut feeling I have I would add that all four who I think to be scum - SSBF, Rai, Drip and ML - have targeted Richard. At the very least, this means he's not on the same team as them.

CMAR I am confused by. He his play has been confounding and at times, arrogant. He's lurked a lot and as a result I only have sketchy notes on him, but they mention things like tunneling on Richard - which according to the view that Richard is town, is bad - and a general lack of scumhunting. However, I don't think he's scum, the only concerning interactions being with Axelrod (the whole "I'm willing to accept Hand" thing). Honestly, I think he's got some sort of mental problem. I'd give him a 60% chance of being town.

[Eddard Stark]

Thor665 replaces Paranoia effective immediately.

[Eddard Stark]

Vote count 1.19: The

"Is there gold hidden in the village?"

votecount

.

Lynch Count

Super Smash Bros. Fan (1) -

Unsight

RichardGHP (1) -

Raivann

CryMeARiver (3) -

Hasdgfas, LynchmePls, Percy

Drippereth (2) -

Benmage, Budja

CSL (1) -

Axelrod

danakillsu (2) -

xvart, Thor665

Budja (6) -

Drippereth, Super Smash Bros. Fan, danakillsu, RichardGHP, vezopiraka, CSL

Mikujin (1) -

MagnaofIllusion

Raivann (5)

Mina, Mikujin, Locke Lamora, julienvonwolfe, I doubt it

MagnaofIllusion (1)

MacavityLock

Not voting to Lynch (3) - CryMeARiver, Rifka Vivieka, Kinetic

Hand of the King Count

xvart (2) -

xvart, Budja

CryMeARiver (2) -

CryMeARiver, Raivann

Benmage (1) -

Benmage

Drippereth (2) -

Danakillsu, Drippereth

Percy (13) -

hasdgfas, Mikujin, MagnaofIllusion, MacavityLock, Percy, vezopiraka, I doubt it, Super Smash Bros. Fan,Rifka Viveka, RichardGHP, Lynchmepls, CSL, julienvonwolfe

Mina (3) -

Thor665, Locke Lamora, Kinetic

MacavityLock (1)

Axelrod

Not voting to Raise (2) - Unsight, Mina

With 26 alive, it takes 14 to lynch and raise.

The deadline for today's lynch is

10:00pm EST on Tuesday the 22nd of June

. You can view a countdown to the deadline

here

.


All replacements should be done for the time being. We'll likely have to extend, but lets see how we go...

[LimMePls]

Lurker scum CMAR should be killed. With 36 hours to deadline, even if he does show up to finally answer the many questions aimed his way, there will not be near enough time to properly discuss that information.

I think his play is incredibly troubling. I also think there is sufficient interactions with others (notably Richard and Axelrod) that his flip will be helpful.

[Thor665]

Greetings,

I'm replacing in for Paranoia. I'll be catching up over the next couple of days and should start providing brilliant (?) insights thereafter. I can't guarantee the brilliance, but I will guarantee no more lurking in this slot and no need to replace it. I should have enough time tomorrow to manage a read of at least a good chunk of the current game and will be back with comments/thoughts sometime Monday evening.

::insert obligatory hi to all the players I've played with before::

[hasdgfas]

Lurker scum CMAR should be killed. With 36 hours to deadline, even if he does show up to finally answer the many questions aimed his way, there will not be near enough time to properly discuss that information.

I think his play is incredibly troubling. I also think there is sufficient interactions with others (notably Richard and Axelrod) that his flip will be helpful.

[MacavityLock]

To respond to JVW:

MacavityLock

has played a good game, except with regards to his interactions with SSBF. Observe:

Although I prefer to raise Macavity Lock instead, you're not a bad choice either.

And then:

I'll be in favor of raising you. Like others said, you have been playing very well. Although I prefer to raise Macavity Lock instead, you're not a bad choice either.

When had you ever mentioned me as a candidate for Raising? This is weird and out of the blue.

Why not leave it to die? ML specifically feels the need to point this out despite the six-page difference and criticise SSBF for it, and to me it just doesn't feel genuine.

Why would I leave it to die, if I'm scumhunting? The way he worded it seemed like it was something that he had already made his feelings known about when he hadn't, and it struck me as odd.

It and ML's subsequent interactions with SSBF feel like distancing and/or bussing to me, especially this one, where he backs off a bit, but says that his biggest reason for suspecing SSBF was his use of FOSes. That's much more emphasis on FOSes than he gives here - a small but troubling inconsistency, given the other stuff that he called out SSBF on and this.

I'm not sure where you're seeing this changing emphasis on this point.

Why did he not mention SSBF's unnecessary apologies in the post where he backs off, given that he called SSBF unequevocally scummy for the apology but only a 'bit' scummy for the FOSes, initially?

I don't understand the question. The FoSes and the parroting apology are two completely separate points.

This point is on the tenuous side, I know, but consider this also: in the post where SSBF analyses those on the Richard wagon, he places Macavity under the 'null' category -

yet he also considered him townie enough to be Raised to Hand!?

Contradiction! Scum! Die!

I like how you put this point against SSBF under my section. Good show.

All this said, JVW's entire case on me is predicated on SSBF-scum, so I'm not really sure if there's any point to this until we have that flip.

I'd be willing to vote Rai, though I really want to lynch SSBF. Percy's a good Hand, too.

Thusly:

Vote: Raivann
Raise: Percy

Was this a mistake? Did you mean to vote SSBF?

I haven't thought about this whole "2 minutes" thing you are harping on. Like, the quick unvote is scummy because...scum are quick to unvote? I'm not sure I get that reasoning, but maybe I haven't thought it all the way through.

It's off to me because it reads like using the claim as an excuse to jump off the wagon, for whatever reason. I would think that a reasonable scumhunting player who had legitimate suspicion of Richard would take a little time to think the claim through.

Question: How many people at this point would be willing to lynch me today?

I don't think you're the lynch today.

I have to agree with Percy that that's shit for promised content.

I'm starting to wonder something about Loras. PLEASE READ THIS: DO NOT CLAIM The question I'm wondering is if Loras knew before Richard's claim that he would get a Venge kill if Renly died, or if Loras either A) Is vanilla, or B) Had other abilities besides this.

Mina/Percy look townish, but I'm extremely dubious of Percy because I know he can look very town while playing scum. I'm going to keep him under very strict watch.

Raise Mina

.

This post reads so off to me. First off, we have a "This is rolefishing, THIS IS NOT ROLEFISHING" paragraph. Then we have him Raising Mina, which is weird to me, because I really can't tell anything different between her play here and the AGoT mini, where she was scumbuddies with Kinetic. So Kinetic, why is Mina townish?

I did finally do my catch-up on Kleedrac, and: I see the scumminess of his lurkiness and the AtE in his last post before getting replaced, but not much more than that. I think there are scummier people out there.

Due to upcoming deadline, it's time to look at viable wagons, and I can get behind a CMAR lynch.

Unvote. Vote: CMAR

. Magna, SSBF, Vezo, and Miku are other people I wouldn't mind lynching.

[RichardGHP]

Vote: CryMeARiver

DieScumDie

[Locke Lamora]

Sorry, no internet access last weekend. Will be catching up asap.

[Eddard Stark]

Vote count 1.20: The

" Wear it in silence or I'll honour you again "

votecount

.

Lynch Count

Super Smash Bros. Fan (1) -

Unsight

RichardGHP (1) -

Raivann

CryMeARiver (5) -

Hasdgfas, LynchmePls, Percy, MacavityLock, RichardGHP

Drippereth (2) -

Benmage, Budja

CSL (1) -

Axelrod

danakillsu (2) -

xvart, Thor665

Budja (5) -

Drippereth, Super Smash Bros. Fan, danakillsu, vezopiraka, CSL

Mikujin (1) -

MagnaofIllusion

Raivann (5)

Mina, Mikujin, Locke Lamora, julienvonwolfe, I doubt it

Not voting to Lynch (3) - CryMeARiver, Rifka Vivieka, Kinetic

Hand of the King Count

xvart (2) -

xvart, Budja

CryMeARiver (2) -

CryMeARiver, Raivann

Benmage (1) -

Benmage

Drippereth (2) -

Danakillsu, Drippereth

Percy (13) -

hasdgfas, Mikujin, MagnaofIllusion, MacavityLock, Percy, vezopiraka, I doubt it, Super Smash Bros. Fan,Rifka Viveka, RichardGHP, Lynchmepls, CSL, julienvonwolfe

Mina (3) -

Thor665, Locke Lamora, Kinetic

MacavityLock (1)

Axelrod

Not voting to Raise (2) - Unsight, Mina

With 26 alive, it takes 14 to lynch and raise.

The deadline for today's lynch is

10:00pm EST on Thursday the 24th of June

. You can view a countdown to the deadline

here

.

In light of the multitude of replacements and wait for said replacements the deadline is being extended by 48 hours. This is the final deadline. Prods going out now. You have a little over 3 days untill deadline.

[danakillsu]

Hey, guys, we have three days to lynch someone. So everyone should be on the CMAR wagon, the Raivann wagon, or the Budja wagon. NO EXCEPTIONS. We don't have time to mess around with someone else. Just decide which is scummiest and lynch them, because we can't afford to have a no lynch.

[Eddard Stark]

Axelrod and Mikujin have been prodded

[vezokpiraka]

I am on the budja wagon but I will change my vote if the CMAR wagon picks up steam. I don't want this day to end in a no lynch

[Rifka Viveka]

Vote raviann

Lets go

[xvart]

@danakillsu: You started with an "IF you find Raivann as scummy as Kleedrac", a hypothetical. You also say his messing up is a null tell.
Then, you say you would be down for a Raivann lynch - you guess.
And now: your scumread on Raivann has always been equal to your scumread on Kleedrac?
You're retconning your read here. I also don't like this:
danakillsu wrote:
Raivann is at least almost as scummy as Kleedrac
At least almost?! More weaselling.

Yes, my scumread on Raivann has always been approximately equal to my scumread on Kleedrac. There's nothing false there. And as far as "at least almost", you got a better way to say that? I think Raivann could be said to be as scummy as Kleedrac, but not scummier. I personally think he's a little bit less scummy, which is why I'm voting for Kleedrac. Why can't you seem to wrap your mind around that? Since everyone's calling you smart town and raising you, you seem to have gotten a bit cocky and seem to think you can just call the shots and everyone will follow you.

Sigh. Why doesn't anyone get what I've said from the beginning? MY POINT IS THAT KLEEDRAC-SCUM is roughly equal to Raivann-scum, and both have good reasoning for their wagons.

The point, at least as I read it, is who gives a shit if two people are

at least almost close enough but a little different

in terms of their scumminess?! Scum is scum. You ought to be actively trying to get either lynched if you are confident in your reads. The only reason I can think of that it might matter the order you lynch them is if you see some reason why one of them might have a scum power role. The fact that you are so ambivalent about their relationship and wishy washy about who is scummier and who is more lynchworthy looks to me like you are leaving yourself outs if/when any of this goes south.

Therefore if Kleedrac is replaced, making "Kleedrac"-town at least as good as Raivann-town, then I'd be fine with lynching either.

And what is this now? One minute they both are scum and the next they are both town? Based off of one person being replaced? I think you fabricated this point about Raivann and Kleedrac so you could interject some new material for the wagon so it didn't appear that you were merely bandwagoning; then you got called out on it and now can't even explain it yourself.

I'm starting to wonder something about Loras. PLEASE READ THIS: DO NOT CLAIM The question I'm wondering is if Loras knew before Richard's claim that he would get a Venge kill if Renly died, or if Loras either A) Is vanilla, or B) Had other abilities besides this.

I had actually wondered the same thing, but I don't see any benefit to discussing it until Loras comes out (pun intended).

However, I did forget to write down notes, so I'm going to just try to remember what my reads were.

First let me explain that I am not complaining that you didn't take notes; but my interest in your post is that you

forgot

to take notes? You were planning on taking notes on a 26ish page game and what, got to page 25 and thought "shit! I was going to take notes"?

Bolding mine; no reasons were given for the flip-flop, and no reasons for thinking SSBF scum were given either.

JVW - I had a similar concern a while back (not specific to your example) but I asked about a specific read and never got an answer. (hint hint Drippereth)

Just a question. Do you think CMAR is scummy because he was conveniently around to react to Richard's claim, or because his "unvote" reaction happened so quickly?

I was wondering the same thing because if you think CMAR is scummy because he was around to react to Richard's claim that would mean some level of daytalking ability and if that is the case then this would have been a planned thing, and wouldn't the plan be so obvious as to outweigh whatever perceived benefit? I do find it odd that the unvote came so quickly; I would have expected an immediate unvote to say something along the lines of "I'm going to unvote while I consider this claim." I'm leaning towards CMAR being scum and wanting to look town and didn't even evaluate the claim at all.

Why couldn't it be a fake claim and the power be completely bogus? If he is the leader of a scum team, and his fake claim is Renly, couldn't his partner's fake claim be Loras? And couldn't he have just made up the power? It would explain him having to PM the mod multiple times to "clarify" how it worked. And "his play has been underwhelming"? That's an underwhelming statement from you. Here is the entireity of his participation SINCE his claim:

I never really thought the pm'ing the mod was even necessary. Seriously, wtf are we pm'ing to mod to find out what killed means and if "lynching killed" is the same as "night kill killed" in terms of killed-ness? Why would he have to pm the mod if the ability was made up? To feign not understanding the pm?

xvart.

[xvart]

EBWOP:
Forgot to do this.

Unraise
Raise: Percy

xvart.

[xvart]

lol, EBWOP:
Also forgot to do this, my reasoning mentioned in my original post above:

Unvote
Vote: CMAR

xvart.