A Clash of Kings - A Divided Kingdom

[Drippereth]

EBWOP: I left out Idoubt from the Percy hand wagon list.

[Mikujin]

@Mod:

V/LA until further notice; grandma passed away. Probably be back late this week/early next week.

[Axelrod]

I'm looking at danakillsu and I think I finally understand the case. I'm posting more of less all my thoughts, since I've been cut and pasting them as I went and I'd rather do that then take more time and edit down to something smaller. But this makes the post kind of long.

I started by not agreeing with comments some made that Dana's unvoting Richard when Richard was at L-1 was a scummy act. Town could do that just as easily as scum and with equal motivation.

Dana sounds a little worse when trying to defend the Unvote here:

Why do you find it scummy that I ensured RichardGHP would not be quicklynched? LOOK WHO HE TURNED OUT TO BE! We also hadn't decided who to raise as Hand yet. I help town a lot and it's scummy. Go figure. I will do this again next time I have the opportunity, despite what others might think.

And this is mainly because of the "LOOK WHO HE TURNED OUT TO BE!" line, which was over the top and seemed to be accepting of the claim unconditionally.

That last point is confirmed in a couple of other posts. Dana basically says based on the claim there is no way Richard could be lying, at all.

There's no way he's lying when he claimed whom he claimed without a C-C. Do you doubt his claim?

I don't know what a C-C is. Counter-claim? This just completely ignores the possibility of a Mod. provided safe claim - or the possibility that Richard was being truthful, but that Renley was leader of a scum faction.

In fairness, Dana appears to at least acknowledge the possibility of a false-claim here:

I guess it's possible it's a fake claim. I have to admit that, obviously. And maybe it is considered by some to be probable. But from my perspective (not knowing the books really well) it seems like this is a pretty important character, and that a claim of him should not be taken lightly.

Dana then goes on to vote Kledrac, whom several other people are accusing, and this is not inconsistent with anything that Dana has previously posted. He gets some flack for not explaining the vote enough, but that didn't bother me.

Then we get to what I suppose is the "meat" of the case, which is Dana's reactions around Raivann. First post that mentions Raivann is:

Yes, the surge of votes away from Kleedrac leaves me wondering as well. What makes Raivann a better lynch than Kleedrac?

That is not particularly suspicious to me. It's actually fairly subtle as a "defense" of Raivann, and I don't get the feeling that Dana is particularly subtle.

But then we get this post:

Yes, I simply meant the surge of votes toward Raivann instead of Kleedrac, who is only L-6. Here's what I see as our options today:
1) Lynch Richard. IMHO, not a good idea.
2) Lynch Kleedrac. If you believe he's scummy, why not? He's not going to help town even if we keep him alive, since he's given up on posting. And if he's scum, he'll probably do just as much harm as Raivann-scum would.
3) Lynch Raivann. But if we don't do this today, even if he's scum, it probably won't hurt us.
End result: IF you don't want to lynch Richard after his claim, and IF you find Kleedrac nearly as scummy as Raivann, you should be voting for Kleedrac.

Which is a bit worse. Appears to be trying to convince people that Kleedrac is better than Raivann just because Kleedrac isn't posting anymore and Raivann is, so if you had approximately equal opinions of the two, Kleedrac would be the better choice. Which doesn't really follow and is kind of strange logic.

This is followed with:

I'm not saying he will hurt us more as scum, just that he WON'T hurt us LESS. However, if he is TOWN, Kleedrac will do much less for us than Raivann will if Raivan is TOWN. In other words, Kleedrac-scum is approximately equal to Raivann-scum. Kleedrac-town << Raivann-town. Therefore, if Kleedrac is equally scummy to Raivann, we should lynch Kleedrac. Do I make myself clear? Also, I would like to hear others' thoughts on my post that Raivann messed up on rather than their bashing of Raivann for messing up. I think the messing up part is a null tell, personally.

There's a certain consistency to these posts, odd logic aside. Given that Dana was in favor of the Kleedrac lynch before this, I can't say that this part does not follow.

And the next post again doesn't feel like a scum-buddy post:

Oh, and one more thing. We only have six days, so if most people want to lynch Raivann, I suggest they begin doing so. Otherwise, just vote for Kleedrac.

Again, this one seems fairly subtle if the interpretation is that Dana is really trying to get Kleedrac lynched over his scum-buddy.

But then there's the reversal, or flip flop post.

Are you sure? Eddard Stark doesn't seem to be saying this. If Kleedrac is replaced with someone decent, I'd be just as down for a Raivann lynch I guess. But my point about the timing is still valid.
And I'm talking about my June 13, 8:31 PM post. And Mikujin was bashing Raivann.

Where Dana seems to say that he'd be just as happy with a Raivann Lynch as a Kleedrac Lynch. He goes on to say that he does, in fact, find the two of them to be approximately equally scummy:

MY POINT IS THAT KLEEDRAC-SCUM is roughly equal to Raivann-scum, and both have good reasoning for their wagons. Therefore if Kleedrac is replaced, making "Kleedrac"-town at least as good as Raivann-town, then I'd be fine with lynching either.

Well I think you could have seen this in my earlier posts, but just to make it clear for you, I think he's as scummy as Kleedrac. I think the reasoning for lynching either would be the same. Therefore, I would lynch either one if Kleedrac was posting as much content as Raivann, but he's not. So I would rather lynch Kleedrac. If Kleedrac is replaced with someone that posts content and some others would be willing to do the same (so that we don't waste a day) I would be willing to lynch Raivann.

How is it not what I've been saying? The quotes you have seem to be saying the same thing to me. Raivann is at least almost as scummy as Kleedrac for the same reasons.

Yes, my scumread on Raivann has always been approximately equal to my scumread on Kleedrac. There's nothing false there. And as far as "at least almost", you got a better way to say that? I think Raivann could be said to be as scummy as Kleedrac, but not scummier. I personally think he's a little bit less scummy, which is why I'm voting for Kleedrac.

This is a bit of revisionist history on Dana's part. Dana said nothing about Raivann at all this game before the post I quoted above. Certainly nothing that would suggest that he viewed the two of them as almost equally scummy. On the contrary, the early posts were much more specific against Kleedrac and Dana was attacking him for more than just lurking. To say, now, that you were equally suspicious of Raivann, does not appear to track.

Dana then jumps on the Raivann wagon when the Kleedrac/Budja wagon has lost all it's steam, only to jump off again and re-vote Budja when Raivann claims Berric/Vig. This is not

horrible

, as many people left Raivann after the claim.

But then Dana does the final scummy thing, which is to vote

Richard

- the person whose claim he believed almost unequivocally - in light of Raivann's claim (which I guess is the one he now believes).

unvote vote:Richard
I agree with the reasons given by others that his claim is probably not true. If he flips town, we'll know that Raivann is probably scum. If he flips scum we'll know that Raivann is probably town.
@Raivann
It probably is a good idea to tell us who you plan to kill tonight. It will at least tell us if you have an NK. You should wait for others to agree, but I can't think of anything wrong with this. It is very rare for scum to be able to save each other specifically (as in a doc), and mafia wouldn't try to kill that person to make you look like a vig, because if you are a vig, scum wants us to think you're not. So I really see no way that scum could use this to their advantage unless you are scum.

That appears to be a legitimate flip (and really bad reasoning). If anything, one would think that he'd view the two claims as equal and not favor the one so much over the other.

Dana hasn't posted since the new day began.

I can summarize the case with these 2 points:

(1) Dana attacked Kleedrac early, voted Kleedrac and not Raivann, did not mention Raivann at all, but when Raivann's wagon picked up steam, Dana said (a) that people who found the two of them equally scummy should vote for Kleedrac, and (b) that

he

found the two of them equally scummy (and, moreover,

always

had).

(2) When Raivann claimed - creating in some people's minds (though not mine) a conflict betweeen him and Richard because of the vig-type claims, Dana jumped to

Richard

, who he defended before, basically saying he agreed with "others." Again, this is without having anything bad to say about Richard all game, but after repeatedly stating that he found Raivann scummy.

So, this is more than enough for me to:

Vote: Danakillsu

, at least for now.

My hesitation is that I do think it's possible that Dana is the type of player who follows along, but doesn't like to admit that he follows along. I can see him going with the flow of votes against people, and then, when questioned, resentfully claiming that he always felt a certain way - whether or not he actually did. It's a mentality I don't really get, but I've seen on Townies often enough to make me wonder.

[MacavityLock]

Based on JVW's flip, I pretty much completely believe Richard's claim.

On June 23, between 7:50 AM PDT and 8:03 PM PDT, the following happened:

7:50 AM VC

CryMeARiver (10) - Hasdgfas, MacavityLock, RichardGHP, xvart, Axelrod, MagnaofIllusion, CSL, Raivann, I Doubt It, Vezokpiraka
Raivann (9) - Mikujin, Locke Lamora, julienvonwolfe, Rifka Vivieka, Percy,Thor665, Danakillsu, Super Smash Bros. Fan, Benmage

8:03 PM VC

CryMeARiver (10) - Hasdgfas, MacavityLock, RichardGHP, xvart, Axelrod, MagnaofIllusion, CSL , Raivann, Mikujin, Percy
Raivann (5) - Locke Lamora, julienvonwolfe, Thor665, Super Smash Bros. Fan, Benmage

There were 4 people who jumped off of the Raiv wagon, thus making it substantially less viable a day before deadline: Miku, Rifka, Percy, and dana. There has got to be scum in there.

Rifka - Unvoted at 8:04 am - Moved vote to Richard - Because of conflicting claims. Not sure I understand what was conflicting.
dana - Unvoted at 9:32 am - Moved vote to Budja - No reason included, then moved his vote to Richard. So, why did you shift to Budja right away? Why did you shift to Richard almost immediately after?
Miku - Unvoted at 10:13 am - Moved to CMAR - *
Percy - Unvoted at 4:47 pm - Moved to CMAR - Wants to figure out a good plan to use both Richard's trigger-vig and Raiv's vig.

* - I wanted to include this complete quote from Miku:

In light of this, I'm somewhat hesitant to trust Raivann's claim, but it seems with a vig claim, more people are going to be hesitant to lynch him (at least for today). If Raivann is not our lynch today, he and his claim should certainly be revisited.

unvote

For now, CMAR certainly looks like a good candidate for the D1 lynch. The loads of cases built on him, coupled with his extensive lack of posting (and recent "OH SHIT!" post) certainly do little to convince anyone he's anything but scum. Until CMAR answers some of the questions put forth to him, I have no problems with making him our lynch.

vote CMAR

I think this is a rather damning quote. It's very wishy-washy on Raiv, but unvotes anyway, with reservations for later. Joining the CMAR wagon is a) safe, and b) helps assure the mislynch.

I definitely need to go back and read the others, especially dana as he's receiving some major attention. But based on the above quote, and given my suspicion from yesterday, VOTE: Miku.

In addition, SSBF looks like he has some pretty good Raiv ties: See his HoS on Raiv (Jun 14) and subsequent bussing vote (Jun 22). Most of his post re: Raiv were "Raiv is scummy because he's scummy," without good reasoning. His case on vezo is entirely a case for VI, not a case for scum.

I still have open questions to Kinetic.

[Eddard Stark]

Vote count 2.2: The

" I seldom fling children from towers to improve their health. Yes, I meant for him to die"

votecount

.

Lynch Count

Vezokpiraka (1) -

Super Smash Bros. Fan

Danakillsu (4) -

Percy, Thor665, Mikujin, Axelrod

CSL (2) -

Percy, Mina

Super Smash Bros. Fan (3) -

hasdgfas, I Doubt it, LynchMePls

Mikujin (1) -

MacavityLock

Not voting to Lynch (12) -

Kinetic, RichardGHP, xvart, MagnaofIllusion, CSL , Vezokpiraka, Locke Lamora, Unsight, Rifka Vivieka, Danakillsu, Benmage, Drippereth

With 22 alive it takes 12 votes to lynch.
The deadline for today's lynch is

10:00pm (CDT) on Sunday the 18th of July

. You can view a countdown to the deadline

here

.

@Mod: V/LA until further notice; grandma passed away. Probably be back late this week/early next week.

Sorry to hear that, V/LA is noted.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Oh, and MagnaofIllusion, I don't think you ever explained why you found Axelrod reasonable other than his stance on raising!

I’ll revisit this issue for you since I’m guessing my explanation got eaten in the Server transition as did chunks of several of my posts. I went to the Archives to find the specific post where I raised Alex. It happened at 1:43pm on 6/4. A summary of Alex’s posts (from the Archive, again) before that point and why I felt he was reasonable at that time.

ISO 0/1 – His questions to me regarding my thoughts on Meta I thought were well reasoned for such early game contributions. I placed my early vote on SSBF using the Meta angle was a test to see SSBF's reaction.
ISO 2 – His response DripHydra’s call of Deer as obvscum (which, has been noted, changed later in the day) and requesting that Axel vote Deer mirror what my reaction would have been in his situation.
ISO 3 – I agree with his thoughts on the relative importance (or lack thereof) of a Double Voter

Remember – the game had been going on for exactly three real-life days at the point where I raised Axel. Based on that the scarcity of information inherent in the very early game period Axel’s posts were in my mind reasonable enough to warrant an early vote to Raise.

By the way, in the prequel mini, each killer had his or her own kill flavour. If the same player was targeted twice, both flavours would show up. So since Raivann was only hacked to pieces (as opposed to, say, "hacked to pieces and disemboweled"), he was only targeted once.

Given that you are basing some of your speculation on flavour I want to ask you (or anyone else familiar with the source material the following questions) –

1. Does poisoning seem likely as a Greyjoy kill flavour? Axel has indicated it is not but I wanted other input.
2. Does a ‘faked’ suicide seem likely as a Greyjoy kill flavour?

I think it improbable that the ‘hacked to death’ flavour is Greyjoy for obvious reasons.

I’ve got a theory myself that would explain why the fake-claimed Vig was killed and Budja showed up dead in the manner he did, but having a strong handle on likely flavour would be a pre-requisite to making sure it made sense.

@Richard: You're confirmed townie. Congrats. You're not getting lynched. Now how about you help us find scum?

QFT. The unfortunate loss of Ser Loras has confirmed you as much as is realistically possible. You need to actively be contributing to hunting today.

VI is his town meta (although I can't provide links sorry).

I’m inclined to agree that Vezo much better Vig target than lynch target. I have one question for you LMP – what is Vezo’s scum meta?

@Dana – Given the ample review your play has gotten today I want to highlight a response you made to me yesterday.

Perhaps not from your view, but I refuse to let Percy rule the town and just honor any baseless accusations he may make with a full-blown defense. Nobody should believe him anyway if he gives no proof, so there's really no reason to take the time to disprove anything he says. Besides, it would be really hard to simply disprove his assertion that I am scum, probably impossible, since there's nothing to disprove.

First you refuse to respond to Percy’s accusations (Day 1) as you find them baseless. Do you think it is Pro-Town to simply disengage from what you perceive as a scummy attack as opposed to demonstrating why the attack is flawed and scummy? Lastly I didn’t ask you to disprove you were scum. I asked you to highlight how Percy was mis-repping or lying about you.

[Drippereth]

Would dana say this if he were Raivann's buddy?

I agree with the reasons given by others that his claim is probably not true. If he flips town, we'll know that Raivann is probably scum. If he flips scum we'll know that Raivann is probably town.

[Thor665]

^^^

I'm guessing that post is by dana and not Raiv as the quote tag suggests. Who was the "he" in the conversation? Thor doth demand context.

[Drippereth]

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 3#p2333363

RICHARD.

[Benmage]

Pretty sure I like this movement against dana, gonna drop a post later tonight.

[Percy]

vezokpiraka

Firstly, looking at SSBF's case, here is the cliffnotes version.

(1) vezokpiraka is experienced and should not be given any newbie leeway.
(2) He had selfish motives for calling for a Raise on himself.
(3) He promises on cases and does not deliver.
(4) He bandwagons with little reasoning.
(5) He contradicts himself, especially with regards to the Raivann claim.
(6) He has contributed nothing to the game.

I'm not convinced at all that (1) is true. I think (2) is a nebulous point - if he is town with some benefit for being raised Hand, I can imagine him blurting that out rather than trying to earn the position, and if we are crediting vezo with some intelligence then I can't see how scum would have made such a ploy. Now (3) and (4) are entirely true; (5) is not as weak, imo, as what LynchMePls says - in particular, his argument that Raivann and CMAR were a scumteam is not only abandoned, but his vote goes on Richard, before going back on CMAR. I'm willing to partially grant (6), though SSBF phrases his conclusion interestingly - it is up to players to defend vezok ("give me one reason"), which seems scummy to me. If vezok is lynched and flipped town, it looks like SSBF is keeping the "well no-one gave me a reason" excuse close at hand.

Many of the things that SSBF says here

have already been said

by Mikujin. In fact, points (2)-(4) and (6) are virtually identical, though they work with only half the material.

I see that Mikujin has

already commented

on this, but still,

@Mikujin

: Was your case against vezo always for a "policy" lynch? That's not how I read your original case......

@LynchMePls

: I understand that you think vezok represents an easy target for SSBF, but you didn't comment on Mikujin's original case. Do you actually think the case for vezok-scum is without merit?

As I'd said earlier, his scumminess almost seems so overt as to be inconceivable. I think those who are calling him the classic VI are fairly spot on.

I'm leery of "2scum4scum" arguments, and I'm just as wary of "classic VI" arguments. Scum can seem completely VI; my favourite example is from a game I modded,

Cults of Darkness and Shadow

, check out mipe's play for lulz. (Fakeclaiming a role that didn't exist in an open setup was his fatal move...)

My conclusion is that vezokpiraka has done nothing to convince me of his towniess, and is scummy besides. That doesn't invalidate the VI or easy target arguments. I'm pretty sure we've lost our vigging powers (both the "hired assassin" and "triggered vengeful townie" have died), and I'd be very uncomfortable leaving vezok until endgame, but I have better leads right now.

Drippereth

I do like IDI's case on danakilsu, since it fits my theory.

This is bizarre. I doubt it's case from today was on SSBF. That's where his vote is, at least. The case on danakillsu that he is looking at in this post is mine. Saying it's "I doubt it's case" is weird.
Also, before Raivann's flip, your read on dana was town. So town in fact that you stated your town read on dana in no fewer than

nine

posts yesterday.
Also also, your theory is that scum would be late to bus Raivann. Why does this theory invalidate your townread of dana, but you're still conflicted about your SSBF read? SSBF jumped on the Raivann wagon

after

dana. Doesn't he fit your "theory" even better? What part of the SSBF case does your head like? What about my case on dana invalidates your strong town

gut

read?

I felt that Deer was town.

As has already been pointed out, you actually didn't. Let's assume that it was a "mistype". In clarification, you said:

Raivann posts and moves from scum -> neutral -> town supplemented by the claim.

What exactly made you move Raivann to "neutral"? I can't see your neutral read at all. Let's look at what you did say:
After several posts of Raivann's (though having a scum read of Deer, apparently):

ah bleh, barely anything's changed.

...and asking rather pointed questions such as

Are people voting Raivann because Kleedrac is lurking himself away from being a vote magnet?

...and then

Right now I still think Kleedrac is more likely scum then Rai (who replaced deer who is still scummy etc. etc.) but talking with DGB.

...but then, out of fucking nowhere,

Raivan is town -> http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 8#p2317958 <- That trio stream of posts came from town.

You pushed the Kleedrac wagon hard and just when the Raivann wagon was building momentum, you change gears and he's super town. There was no neutral, no gradual and reasonable changing of opinions. This retconning is scummy.

My book says that Percy IS scum.

My book says you ARE wrong

danakillsu

I didn't see a huge difference between "Raivann and Kleedrac are about equally scummy" and "Raivann is almost as scummy as Kleedrac,"

The inconsistency here is slight, but it's not the main thrust of my case. Let's take for a given that dana found Kleedrac and Raivann equally scummy - then compare his play towards Kleedrac (town) to that of Raivann (scum), especially when it looked like the lynch choices were CryMeARiver or Raivann. Even though he went to a lot of effort

saying

he found Raivann scummy, he didn't actually

act

like he found Raivann scummy.

Would dana say this if he were Raivann's buddy?

I agree with the reasons given by others that his claim is probably not true. If he flips town, we'll know that Raivann is probably scum. If he flips scum we'll know that Raivann is probably town.

Firstly, dana unvoted Raivann in that post. This is important context.
Secondly, yes. This is pretty classic distancing, imo.
Thirdly, if we're in multiscum (which I believe we are - Greyjoys are not poisoners) then from dana's perspective Richard could very well be scum (Richard claims one of the Five Kings), so this may very well be an attempt to buy Raivann townpoints rather than take them away.
Finally, this is one post in a sea of scummy ones. This post is nowhere near enough to discount the case against dana.

Super Smash Bros. Fan

Pleading a lack of time, whilst still having enough time to do a complete ISO of vezok, is bizarre. He has acknowledged the need to look into things such as the Raivann connection and commenting on the dana case, but does not use the critical pieces of information we have today (the flips) when forming his case against vezok.

I think more than anything else his absence through critical periods of yesterday is chafing me. He was very active during and immediately after the Richard wagon, then he jumps on the Kleedrac wagon, defends Benmage and claims to be parroting Drippereth. His activity falls after that and becomes much more defensive when he does post. Even though he FoSed and HoSed Raivann in that time, dropping in to ask questions like

Has anyone played with him? If so, is this play style normal?

...seems like an attempt to give Raivann an out. He was also late on the Raivann wagon.

I agree that SSBF is scummy, and getting scummier.

@SSBF

: Don't call someone out for not delivering on promised content when you say things like

I will start reading once Night hits and will tell of my suspects on my first post of Day 2.

...or should I assume that you only have one suspect?

Other stuff

Torn as to whether Loras flipping "triggered" vengeful townie implies that he set off a vengeful kill on Raivann--meaning one team's kill was blocked--or whether the other scumteam killed Raivann.

I believe "triggered" vengeful townie was his role name, not the flavour by which he was killed

Mod ~ This is correct "triggered vengeful townie" was Ser Loras Tyrell's role name

. Raivann was hacked to pieces.

There are players I want to look into still (Axelrod, Benmage), but this post is already long enough, so that will have to wait until later.

We still haven't heard from CSL, dana or Kinetic. Blergh.

@Mods: Prods?

I am still happy with my votes. I like the SSBF wagon, but CSL should not be forgotten due to lurking. dana is still #1.

[CSL]

Sorry...extremely busy tomorrow and possibly Thursday. Hence my limited access alert.

I am going to conduct a re-read tonight, barring unforeseen circumstances.

[Unsight]

I don't have much time to post so this is just a speed run of my thoughts having just read the last couple pages.

SSBF is still scummy and still worth lynching. VOTE: SSBF

The Vezo case has merit. Not sure if Vezo is scum, but his play is anti-town and hard for me to read.

Percy's Drippereth case deserves a full read by everyone. It's very good and I would support a Drippereth lynch based on it (mostly because it's something I'd have done if I had more time and someone else hadn't already done it).

I'll reread dana in light of the night's flips in the next day or two.

Also, I recommend everyone not only read who protected the late scum but who attacked the late townies. I will when I get time.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

I also agree that since Ser Loras fipped town, that RichardGHP is most likely town as well.

After a while, I've finally gotten myself worked up to start that post where Raivann could have connections beside me. I'm currently making some progress right now. Right now, I've already gotten to Axelrod's ISO (For order, look at the first page in order of remaining living players). I'm keeping notes of things I've saw. After analyzing connections, I'll try to look at the one with a generally scummy ISO.

For those wondering why danakillsu hasn't posted in recent days, it's because he's currently V/La from June 27th to July 3rd. No prods are needed.

@Mina (Post made on June 17, 2010 at 3:32 AM) I remember one of your post where you basically made more then half of your post "skim-worthy". This was on LynchMePls. Why did you think it was "skim-worthy"? Personally, I thought that it was valueable infromation that town can work on.

[Percy]

I'm going to deal with two posts recently made that I really like. Firstly is the

latest post by Axelrod on dana

. It is a very good summation of the case against danakillsu. I'd like to add one point to the analysis, and that fits in at

(*)

:

Dana then jumps on the Raivann wagon when the Kleedrac/Budja wagon has lost all it's steam

(*)

, only to jump off again and re-vote Budja when Raivann claims Berric/Vig. This is not horrible, as many people left Raivann after the claim.

As the Budja wagon was losing steam, dana said:

I don't think we should lynch CMAR today, because he always plays the way he's playing now, but a lynch of him would be better than no lynch, so go for it, if you must. My vote stays on Budja.

I then countered:

-You think Raivann is just as scummy as Kleedrac/Budja.
-You think CMAR is town, or at least think there hasn't been anything out of the ordinary from that slot.
-CMAR is on 9 votes. Raivann is on 7. And yet you leave your vote on Budja, saying "a lynch on CMAR is better than NL".

Right now

is the time to be pressuring Raivann or pushing the Raivann wagon over the CMAR wagon, rather than throwing up your hands, sitting out and pouting about it. You have never had any conviction behind your Raivann read, and it shows. Same goes for your CMAR read.

He spent a lot of time establishing his scummy, retconning read of Raivann (in a desire to appear consistent, I guess), but when it was looking like a choice between Raivann and CMAR, he stubbornly sticks to his Kleedrac vote and says he can abide a CMAR lynch. You would think that, at this point, if his scumread was really just as great on Raivann as Kleedrac, that he'd join the new wagon and push it over someone he thought was town. It was only

after

I pointed out this new and glaring inconsistency that he joined the Raivann wagon, which is scummy in and of itself.

Finally, the way that dana has done nothing but scream "NO U! U MISREP ME! YOU HAVE NO EVIDENCE! LALALA" ever since I started my case on him just makes my case stronger.

The next one is MacavityLock's

case against Mikujin

. I have a very confused read of Mikujin, especially with regards to his case against vezokpiraka. The CMAR/Raivann interaction is definitely worth noting. I went back and looked at MacavityLock's earlier points against Mikujin, and there seem to be two major points - his voting for Richard when the wagon was well under way without reading, and his possible slip in calling Richard town. I'm eager to hear from Mikujin - what makes me think he's more likely town* is that he was the first person to identify a serious scumtell of Raivann's, and whilst his vote was not the first on the Raivann wagon, it was the second and the first one with concrete reasons.

* - hmmmm, I think I should say "not Greyjoy" rather than town here, and that may be a very important distinction in this game.

I think that there is a little bit more meat to the case against vezokpiraka than simply "policy lynch the VI", but I agree that SSBF far too readily conflates anti-town and scummy in what is a very easy case to make, especially given that people had made almost identical comments earlier in the thread.

MagnaofIllusion makes a good point - none of the kill flavours sound like Greyjoy kills. They don't poison people, drive them to suicide or hack them to pieces; they may drown them, stab them or shoot them (with an arrow, of course). Important to note for endgame analysis.

I am waiting on Benmage's promised content. Also, CSL.

Obvscum: danakillsu
Scum: CSL - SSBF
Persons of interest: vezokpiraka - Kinetic - Drippereth - Mikujin - Benmage

[Kinetic]

Not trying to lurk, my first priority is my own game I'm modding, and although its summer I'm not at the computer very often. Bleh. I understand my play looks remarkably similar to my play in the mini (of which I was indeed scum, lol), and not anything like my normal town play (ala, MSM4, or any other game I've played as town). Best I can say right now is I haven't had the time to wrap my head around the game.

That being said, I don't have to be as focused on my modding commitments right now, so I'll be catching up a bit more since the Day opened. I'll admit, I was kind of hoping to draw a NK... lol O well, I guess I'll have to make the scum pay for leaving me in the game.

I'm OK with the dana lynch for now, expect a more substantial update "soon" (tm), and I do realize that both Mina and Percy are asking me questions. I haven't forgotten, I'll get to them too. Yay. ><

[Benmage]

Okay I lied. No post from me tonight boys, but I did pick up this hot bartender. Post tomorrow for sure.

How hot?

[RichardGHP]

Sorry peoples. School and general life has been hectic this week.

I will be sure to make a decent post on Friday, or Saturday at the latest.

[Mina]

Eddard Stark: prod Locke Lamora, xvart, and vezokpiraka, please.

Anyone remember that Locke is still in this game?

Has

anyone

read my case on CSL? Anyone at all? It's not just a lurker lynch. It's a lot like the case on danakillsu, except my wagon has butterflies and rainbows!

Seriously, MacavityLock. You're looking for scum not among the players who supported CMAR's wagon or looked the other way when Raivann was an option, but those who let Raivann get to L-1 and then unvoted AFTER RAIVANN CLAIMED VIG? Everyone rushed off his wagon then. You're

really

taking that vote count out of context by choosing an arbitrary point at which Raivann had an equal number of votes to CMAR. The moment Raivann claimed vig, his lynch obviously stopped being viable. Both town AND scum would unvote and scramble for a new lynch option. Voting Mikujin for being a Raivann buddy because of his unvote when he was pushing the Raivann lynch hardest of anyone takes the cake.

Question to players: assuming two scumteams, how many players would you say are on each? Three? Four?

@Mina (Post made on June 17, 2010 at 3:32 AM) I remember one of your post where you basically made more then half of your post "skim-worthy". This was on LynchMePls. Why did you think it was "skim-worthy"? Personally, I thought that it was valueable infromation that town can work on.

This is kind of a useless filler comment to make. Do you think me calling it "skim-worthy" is scummy? Is there any valuable information in particular that you want to highlight in that post? Why are you bringing this up two weeks later?

I said it was skimworthy because--like your comment--it told us nothing about the alignment of any players. It was just a longwinded back-and-forth in which I corrected LynchMe on a partnership theory that only LynchMe believed. Neither Richard nor CMAR would be more or less likely to be lynched because of that discussion. I thought my thoughts on Axelrod and CMAR, on the other hand, might actually affect people's reads or opinions. Usually, I get accused of wall-of-texting, so I was trying to restrain myself.

Bleh. I understand my play looks remarkably similar to my play in the mini (of which I was indeed scum, lol), and not anything like my normal town play (ala, MSM4, or any other game I've played as town). Best I can say right now is I haven't had the time to wrap my head around the game.

Heh. Okay, so I wasn't just imagining it. My reasoning for putting you among my top suspects was partly because I thought you were playing a lot like you did in the mini. Eventually, you'd better step it up, but that post did sound genuine.

[Locke Lamora]

Yep, I'm here, just been moving this week so a bit pressed for time. Will catch up as soon as possible.

[Eddard Stark]

xvart is v/la, sorry forgot to note that.
Dana's sig shows he's v/la I think - V/LA 6/27-7/3.

Will prod Vezokpiraka

[Rifka Viveka]

Heh. Okay, so I wasn't just imagining it. My reasoning for putting you among my top suspects was partly because I thought you were playing a lot like you did in the mini. Eventually, you'd better step it up, but that post did sound genuine.

I feel the opposite way. Yes there is a genuine ring to it, but kinetic is a decent player who keep feel a little embarrassed for making himself look scummy for no reason, hurting his team, so the apology could have been sincere but to his buddies. Also, last time someone said they couldnt wrap their head around the game, they were scum i was pressuring :/

I gotta admit, all these relatives dying, houses burning, jobs lost, earthquakes, floods excuses drive me nuts :headwall:

[LimMePls]

1. Does poisoning seem likely as a Greyjoy kill flavour? Axel has indicated it is not but I wanted other input.

Absolutely not. Think of the Greyjoy's as vikings. They'd axe you in the face, not poison you.

2. Does a ‘faked’ suicide seem likely as a Greyjoy kill flavour?

Again, no. They'd just gut you themselves. The specific character who killed themself here has a lot of flavor interactions with another character in the story that would lead me to assume (given the Hired Killer role) that someone in the game could submit a name to him each night. He could choose to accept to kill that person or refuse. If he refuses, I'm guessing he has to kill himself instead. This is specifically what happens in the story.

**SPOILER ALERT**

Jaqen H'gar owes Arya three deaths because she saved his life. She uses 2 of them for petty reasons. Finally she asks him for his help on something important. He refuses. She then says her third choice is for him to kill himself. He then agrees to help her

[Eddard Stark]

Oops vezok is also V/LA. Deleted the prod.

[LimMePls]

@Mina (Post made on June 17, 2010 at 3:32 AM) I remember one of your post where you basically made more then half of your post "skim-worthy". This was on LynchMePls. Why did you think it was "skim-worthy"? Personally, I thought that it was valueable infromation that town can work on.

Why are you bringing this up now?

@Everyone else: This wagon needs more votes.