[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[Ythan]

Now that was an intriguing idea. Many combinations of roles can make for a fun enough game but that's got a neat theme behind it.

[Max]

Partially, yes. C9++ was here and it landed in the Queue and I think two-fold C9 among others came out of here as well.

Yeah, I'm just a tad disappointed it appears to have been mod-abandoned.

[Alduskkel]

Jack of All Trades Mafia
3 Mafia (0-1 of which is a JOAT)
10 Townies (1-2 of which is a JOAT)

Each JOAT gets 3 abilities randomly selected from the following list (all 1-shot):
1.Track
2. Protect
3. Watch
4. Investigate
5. Kill (?)
6. Roleblock
7. NK Immunity (?)
8. Role Cop
9. Jailkeep

?s for ones I'm not sure should be included. Also, I was thinking that if a JOAT ability is roleblocked then it's permanently used up. Also, should NK Immunity be blockable? Usually it's a passive ability, but in this case it's an activated one. Finally, how do you resolve two people blocking each other if one is using an additional action (e.g. protecting via jailkeep, or attempting to kill someone)?

[Ythan]

Fun idea. Joats in general are fun to play.

[yabbaguy]

A trifle thin. Some of those abilities are just JOAT detectors (Track/Watch), others still benefit Town moreso (NK Immunity, Alignment Investigate)

I like semi-open setups with various outputs though, so I like where this is going. That's why I love C9++. Speaking of Nobody Special's game, there's a bit of a snag with who the playerlist is, so we're a bit delayed.

[Beefster]

The above idea inspires me...

one-shot mafia

Everybody gets a 1-shot ability, including the mafia's kills.

• 3 Mafia
  
• 9 Townies

Each mafioso has one kill, and the faction can still only make 1 kill per night. If a mafioso with a kill left is lynched, the kill is lost. If there are no kills left, the mafia can't kill that night and must finish off the town with mislynches. Kills are not mandatory if available.
Each townie is given either investigate (20%) or peek (80%).
The peek ability checks if the target still has his power. Peek goes last so that it can be useful for the next day.
Win condition for the mafia is 50/50.

3:9 should be pretty balanced. The mafia doesn't have a reliable kill every night, and if the town lynches a kill-enabled mafioso, they get more time to work with.
On the other hand, it might be important to limit the number of investigators in play. If every townie gets investigation, it could shift heavily in the Town's favor.
Peek should be pretty useful when trying to lynch mafiosos with kills.

[Beefster]

Rethinking, 3:8 might be better. The mafia gets at most 3 kills- so assuming a mislynch the first two days and a kill every night, that leaves you at Day 3, 3:4, with 1 kill left. If the town lynches the last kill-enabled member, it actually buys 2 more days because there are no more NKs left.

[Socrates]

Hello. When Farside asked me what setup I wanted to run, I asked if I could run The Fonz's The More You Know Mafia:

How about:

The More You Know Mafia

Cop
Doc
Vig

Six Townies

Mafia Cop Enabler (Corrupt Chief of Police)
Mafia Doc Enabler (Corrupt Hospital Administrator)
Mafia Vig Enabler (Corrupt Gun Shop Owner)

The town power roles no longer function once the linked scum dies.

but Farside expressed some concern about the balance of the game and asked if I could get some more discussion about it from players with more setup design experience.

Personally, I feel that the setup is such that no side has any distinct advantage over the other, but that there is a lot of room for player skill to influence the game, and that it encourages players to rethink how they approach power roles (particularly the cop and vig).

Of course, I have never modded a game before and know next to nothing about setup balance from that perspective. Anybody willing to give their two cents?

Edit: Farside needs an answer by tomorrow, otherwise I will just run something else.

[zoraster]

interesting concept but...

Bus your cop enabler or shoot him at night if that fails.

8v2 with vig and doc.

play as normal. scum sided i think, especially given that if vig or town hits vig enabler, it takes away vig kill.

[Socrates]

Thats not too powerful of a strategy. Bussing a specific member of your scumteam right out of the gates enough to ensure the wagon is pushed through would be pretty hard to do without being obvious about it, and even if you succeed you still have to deal with one confirmed townie in the cop himself still being able to claim even if he can't investigate. It would be more 8v2 with a vig, doc, and an "Earl" and a whole day of (fairly predictable) interactions. Failing to bus and shooting one of your own members at night is even worse as under my interpretation of the setup the cop would still get one investigation in.

The point about the vig isn't too big because a sucessful vig kill puts the town very far ahead at that point anyway.

[Beefster]

Seems pretty reasonable to me.

[Mr. Flay]

Seems workable, but hellishly swingy.

[zoraster]

Thats not too powerful of a strategy. Bussing a specific member of your scumteam right out of the gates enough to ensure the wagon is pushed through would be pretty hard to do without being obvious about it, and even if you succeed you still have to deal with one confirmed townie in the cop himself still being able to claim even if he can't investigate. It would be more 8v2 with a vig, doc, and an "Earl" and a whole day of (fairly predictable) interactions. Failing to bus and shooting one of your own members at night is even worse as under my interpretation of the setup the cop would still get one investigation in.

The point about the vig isn't too big because a sucessful vig kill puts the town very far ahead at that point anyway.

Cop Enabler claims cop to start? or vig enabler does so. busses his teammate the cop enabler. actually seems pretty interesting for fake claims. almost incentivizes them.

[SaintKerrigan]

Two ideas:

Scumbags Mafia

12 players

1 Sane Cop (is not told he's sane)
1 Naive Cop (is not told he's naive) (appears innocent to the Sane Cop) (sees everyone as innocent)
1 Paranoid Cop (is not told he's paranoid) (appears guilty to the Sane Cop) (sees everyone as guilty)
1 Doctor (cannot protect himself) (appears innocent to the Sane Cop)
5 Town Millers (are told they're millers) (appears guilty to the Sane Cop)
2 Mafia Millers (are told they're millers) (appears innocent to the Sane Cop)
1 Mafia Lawyer (can make someone appear innocent to sane investigations) (appears innocent to the Sane Cop)

Would You Like to Join the Cult?

15 players

10 Vanilla Townies
1 Guard (protects target from recruitment)
4 Cultists

Twist: Cultists get a collaborative recruitment instead of a nightkill. To compensate for this, the town gets the option to lynch twice in the same day. Lynches can't be used simultaneously (in other words, you have to get Lynch #1 before you can vote for Lynch #2).

[Mr. Flay]

2 Mafia Millers (are told they're millers) (appears innocent to the Sane Cop)

What does this power have to do with Miller? Essentially it's an Investigation-Immune Goon, or a double-Godfather.

I also don't understand when the Mafia Lawyer would ever use their power on anyone but themselves, since all their scumbuddies are already investigation-immune?

[SaintKerrigan]

What does this power have to do with Miller? Essentially it's an Investigation-Immune Goon, or a double-Godfather.

Makes them appear innocent to sane investigations.

I also don't understand when the Mafia Lawyer would ever use their power on anyone but themselves, since all their scumbuddies are already investigation-immune?

Well, look at it this way: out of 12 roles in this game, 6 of them already appear guilty to a sane investigation; all are innocent. Of the 5 innocents remaining, three of them are Mafia. In other words, in this game, guilty = innocent, and the innocent have a 3/5 chance (w/o Lawyer) of being Mafia. Therefore, the Lawyer making someone appear innocent has the same effect as a Framer making someone appear guilty; false information for the sane cop.

[Mr. Flay]

Oh, okay. Seems like a lot of legerdemain for little gain, but I see where you're going with it now.

I still think "Mafia Miller" is unnecessarily obscure; just call them Investigation-Immune Goons and be done with it.

[Twomz]

So, it's open right? ... why not just flip it and have it not as confusing?

[Mr. Flay]

It's part of the flavor, hence the name "Scumbags Mafia".

[Zorblag]

Troll will nominate a 7 player, reverse vengeful nightless. Troll ran it in the mini normal queue as Mini 993; it seemed competitive and those in the game seemed to enjoy it well enough.

5 townies.
2 goons.

The goons can only kill (in twilight) if the town chooses to no lynch (then them can kill that twilight) or if one of the goons in killed (then them can kill every twilight from then on out.) Clearly scum need to be allowed to daytalk. Potential Mafia Twilight kills need to be submitted before the day ends (and can be changed as often as them like up till then.)

For what it's worth, Troll takes no credit for the setup. Troll just stole (and possibly slightly tweaked) it from one of the endgames mith might have used in California Trilogy III: City of Angles. Troll no be sure if him meant for the other goon to kill every twilight after their partner died but Troll found it worked well that way.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[mith]

Reverse Vengeful is basically Treestump without the Treestumps; in Treestump, correct play is for town to stump before they are lynched, and so the only way scum get a kill is if one of them is lynched.

So, no, giving the last remaining goon a kill the rest of the game wasn't my intention, but it may make more sense balance-wise; I'll have to run the numbers sometime.

[Twomz]

So, the town's choices are A) Lynch scum (giving scum a kill every night) B) Lynch townie (mislynch, but no other effect) or C) No Lynch (give the scum a single kill). At a glance it seems balanced to me with 2:5 ratio for no NK (3 mislynches).

[mith]

I get an EV of 35.40% for 2:5 Reverse Vengeful, and an EV of 27.62% for Zorblag's variant. Might be a tad hard on the town, but then again they won Mini 993, so based on that small sample...

I kinda like that it reverts to a vanilla setup if scum is lynched day 1 (whereas RV reverts to a Nightless setup after the kill), but I don't like that the remaining scum effectively gets two NKs if the game goes the way Mini 993 did (town lynch, scum lynch, nk, no lynch, nk).

[Twomz]

Why would they no lynch after a scum dies? Maybe I need to go read this game >.>

[mith]

After town-lynch, scum-lynch, nk it's 1:3, and if the remaining scum is able to nk the correct play is to no lynch down to 1:2 (EV 1/3 vs. 1/4). If the scum doesn't have a nk, then the town has two lynches (EV 1/2).