[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[StrangerCoug]

How well would a mountainous multiball nightless such as 8:2:2, 12:3:3, or 16:4:4 do?

[The Fonz]

Well, I've played 6:3:3 (though with odd lynching mechanics) and

that's

really hard for scum. Think about it, to win flawlessly you have to lynch players that aren't on your team six times in a row (the game in question, Yos, ABR and I won with five lynches and a modkill, but still). 8:2:2 is the

same in terms of

actually requires more mislynches to win, but they've got even less influence on the lynch, and even less margin for error with regard to losing team-mates. Plus of course they can't kill off the obvtowns and good scumhunters like normal.

To balance multigroup nightless, basically town needs to barely have a majority (5:2:2 could work, I think). Think about it, with 8:2:2, it's balanced

with

a nightkill. Take away the scum's primary weapon, and they're screwed.

[Hoopla]

Paranoid Gun Owners

Mafia

(3)

3x Mafia Goons

Town

(9)

6x Vanilla Townies
1x Odd Night PGO
1x Even Night PGO
1x 1-Shot-PGO or Vanilla Townie

I really like the PGO role, but many opposed to it dislike the problem associated with the lack of ways for scum to deal with a confirmed PGO. You either have to sacrifice a 1-for-1 at night, or push super hard to get one lynched. The Even/Odd night PGO's only work every second night, so they are both counterable, and also creates an interesting gameplay for townies trying not to draw the NK, which runs contrary to how you would normally play VT.

The 1-Shot-PGO is a role that has the ability to activate it's power on one night only. The reason I included the coinflip between this role and an extra VT, was to give scum a chance either fakeclaiming, or to potentially frame this role by refusing to NK it. The set-up makes for interesting wifom circles with scum having to be wary about shooting someone acting very town, or in a manner seemingly seeking to draw a kill. It also enables those players who always look obv-town and get NK'd to play aggressively and have a form of psuedo-protection by wifom.

Another complaint the PGO has is that it is very random, which I strongly dispute - this argument is perhaps more applicable to closed games. It's swingy, I grant it that, but good players on the scum side will be able to spot tells, and good PGO's have the ability to act in a way to improve their chances of being NK'ed, and likewise, good townies have an important role to play also. If this was run multiple times, I'd expect specific role tells start to emerge, as optimum play for each role starts to reach an equilibrium.

[Herodotus]

What if even/odd PGO's weren't told whether they were even or odd? That would allow the scum even more room for fakeclaiming (if you feel that would be a good thing.)

Vezopiraka's idea has some hidden potential (though I'd eliminate the chain-reaction "If a person hides with a person that dies they die too.")
If the players hid in a circle after mislynching a townie, the redirector could choose two people to redirect to themself, making a 3-player lylo. But they would have to choose logically based on how the circle was arranged, and the town could try to arrange the circle so that at least one prob-town player was alive.
Or the redirector could redirect the person who would be targeting them away and redirect another to themself. That would force a 5-player lylo, which isn't so good... maybe make the double-redirection 1-shot to fix this?
If the town pairs people... not sure, but it's probably similar.

[vezokpiraka]

If the town pairs people probably the redirector dies if he is one shot.

Because the person who hides with him dies and another redirected person dies. So they have to choose between one of the pairs. Probably not good.

[Hoopla]

What if even/odd PGO's weren't told whether they were even or odd? That would allow the scum even more room for fakeclaiming (if you feel that would be a good thing.)

I'm not sure whether it's necessary. Friends and Enemies functions quite well as a set-up and that has no scope for scum fakeclaims. I think I (usually) just prefer that aspect as a form of balance, as it makes powerroles less reliable/believable. I don't think pandering to the concept of enabling fakeclaims is necessary for this set-up, as the main quirk is how the PGO's/townies play in order to increase or decrease their chances of drawing the NK. I think it's necessary for the PGO's to know which night they are.

[Herodotus]

If the town pairs people probably the redirector dies if he is one shot.

Because the person who hides with him dies and [two] other redirected pe[ople] die.

fixed

I think it would be something like:
R - H(1)
H(2) - H(3)
H(4) - H(5)

The redirector can redirect, for instance, H(3) and H(5) to themself, meaning R, H(2), and H(4) are alive the next day. The redirector gets to choose between H(2) and H(3), and between H(4) and H(5). Or they can redirect H(1) away from themself, and (optionally) one of the others to themself, or do nothing, in which case there will be 5 (or 6) players alive the next day with no direct role information.

In a circle:
R -> H(1) -> H(2) -> H(3) -> H(4) -> H(5) -> R

If the redirector redirected H(3) and H(4) to themself, then H(2) would be confirmed town the next day. If they redirected H(1) and H(2) to themself, then H(4) would be confirmed town the next day. If they redirected H(1) and H(4) to themself, then H(3) would be confirmed town the next day. Or they can redirect H(5) away from themself, and (optionally) one of the others to themself, or do nothing, in which case there will be 5 (or 6) players alive the next day with no direct role information.

Overall, I think the pairs are stronger, since the town can pair two people who are probably town and force the redirector to leave one of them alive.

Another option is for the redirector to redirect one hider to themself, meaning 4 players alive the next day, but 2 of them would be confirmed town.

I think if the town has no role information during the 5/6 player situation, that shouldn't be lylo. So the double redirector needs to be 1-shot, that is, they can only double-redirect during a single night.
In turn, the hiders probably all need to be 1-shot, or the redirector will be revealed by the night 2 results in the 5/6 player case (unless you want to rule out that case as an option for the redirector (which isn't necessarily a problem because normally they should be choosing the 3-player lylo for day 2).)

Another possibility is for the redirector to have a total of 2 redirecton shots, which they can use in a single night or one at a time. That would make things interesting -- bold scum could hold both shots on night 1, letting the hider known to have targeted them die. If they manage to avoid being lynched day 2, they win. Or they could use both shots night 1 in order to make someone else look like they were attempting the same thing.

All of the above assumes that the town plans their hiding openly, and that none of the townies lie/gambit. Neither assumption is safe. But I'm pretty sure there can't be any breaking strategy that depends on partial defection or secrecy.

[vezokpiraka]

I like that.
So 1 redirector with 2 shots.
And 5 hiders?
That could work out pretty well.

[dramonic]

An idea I came up with earlier.
I think it's balanced and non-breakable, but you be the judge of that...

Town

Townie x 4
Sane Cop
Doctor

Mafia

Mafia Roleblocker
Mafia Watcher or Tracker
Mafia Pacifist Godfather (investigate as town, mafia cannot kill while he is alive)

Opinions?

[Hoopla]

3 mafia against 6 town? No way.

[mykonian]

Paranoid Gun Owners

Mafia

(3)

3x Mafia Goons

Town

(9)

6x Vanilla Townies
1x Odd Night PGO
1x Even Night PGO
1x 1-Shot-PGO or Vanilla Townie

I really like the PGO role, but many opposed to it dislike the problem associated with the lack of ways for scum to deal with a confirmed PGO. You either have to sacrifice a 1-for-1 at night, or push super hard to get one lynched. The Even/Odd night PGO's only work every second night, so they are both counterable,

and also creates an interesting gameplay for townies trying not to draw the NK, which runs contrary to how you would normally play VT.

I'm not sure if you want this.

And hoopla is completely right about your setup, Dramonic.

[Hoopla]

I WANT IT.

[mykonian]

I WANT IT.

Do you want a theory debate?

[Hoopla]

NOT WITH YOU, BECAUSE YOU JUST LIKE PLAYING THE DEVIL'S AVOCADO.

[mykonian]

I seriously question the need for a game which gives VT's a reason to underperform. Even in normal games, it isn't unknown for townies to play in a way to avoid death. Not many VT's realize that drawing the NK might be one of their jobs. And in this game, you promote such play even more. I don't see the need for that.

[Hoopla]

SHHH AVOCADO

DON'T MAKE ME EAT YOU

[dramonic]

3 mafia against 6 town? No way.

You didn't actually take the time to read the setup, did you? <<

[mykonian]

3 mafia against 6 town? No way.

You didn't actually take the time to read the setup, did you? <<

SMALL LETTERS.

the breaking strategy is to NL until the cop has 2 guilties, then start lynching. You end up with a 1-6 nightless.

and the watcher won't give conclusive information. A rolecop might be better, but still isn't a beautiful solution. (forcing the town to lynch as soon as he has found the cop, as he can direct the RB)

[Nobody Special]

An idea I came up with earlier.
I think it's balanced and non-breakable, but you be the judge of that...

Town

Townie x 4
Sane Cop
Doctor

Mafia

Mafia Roleblocker
Mafia Watcher or Tracker
Mafia Pacifist Godfather (investigate as town, mafia cannot kill while he is alive)

Opinions?

Fascinating. The town should, I think, initially search for the Godfather, and never lynch him. Of course, the mafia will want the Godfather's identity to remain secret. This will severely change scumhunting as we know it.

It's fascinating to have a scum role that you want to identify yet still keep alive. I'd really like to play this.


(Take the above with two grains of salt. I suck at Mafia. But it's fun. Also also, I can't tell a balanced setup from a dump truck, so don't look here for balance advice.)

[Nobody Special]

myko, there is no watcher mentioned in either Hoopla's setup nor dram's. Please stop being an avocado long enough to help me understand your last sentence.

[Hoopla]

3 mafia against 6 town? No way.

You didn't actually take the time to read the setup, did you? <<

I KIND OF LIKE HALF DID.

[mykonian]

myko, there is no watcher mentioned in either Hoopla's setup nor dram's. Please stop being an avocado long enough to help me understand your last sentence.

I'm not an avocado.

Mafia watcher. In dramonics setup.

To counter the NL-get cop investigations strategy, the mafia has to accurately block the cop. Otherwise, 2 mafia will be known to the town (and mafia can't kill during that time). A mafia watcher doesn't tell the mafia who the cop is, so it won't help.

The setup could be patched by using a role cop in stead of a watcher, but still, the setup wouldn't work too well. (as in the start, town dominates the night with the cop)

[mykonian]

An idea I came up with earlier.
I think it's balanced and non-breakable, but you be the judge of that...

Town

Townie x 4
Sane Cop
Doctor

Mafia

Mafia Roleblocker

Mafia Watcher or Tracker

Mafia Pacifist Godfather (investigate as town, mafia cannot kill while he is alive)

Opinions?

That one.

I think this setup doesn't do what it was intended to do.

[Nobody Special]

Oops, missed the Mafia Watcher. I think you have good points, though.

[dramonic]

Hmm...
say I replace the watcher with a rolecop and allow the mafia to NK their GF if they so wish...
then what?

Also, I think without the changes this would do better as a closed setup.