A Clash of Kings - A Divided Kingdom

[Thor665]

Though I will say that usually whenever I'm hunting scum people tend to think I'm being reasonably townish at the same time. There's certainly some marriage between the two activities.

[hasdgfas]

Though I will say that usually whenever I'm hunting scum people tend to think I'm being reasonably townish at the same time. There's certainly some marriage between the two activities.

I don't disagree. I'm saying you shouldn't care whether you're being townish. Quite honestly, that's the biggest towntell for me, scumhunting while not caring if you look town.

[Seacore]

I think there's possibly an useful distinction here.

1) Looking townish because you are actively participating in pro-town activities, the primary of which is obviously scum hunting.


2) Looking townish because you're trying not to upset people or make any waves.

I want people to do 1), and will probably try and lynch people who do 2)

I find it difficult to play with people who don't engage with reasonable questions. "Why do you think X is scum?" "You changed your vote from Y to Z after those last two posts, what in them made you change your mind?"

People who respond to those kinds of questions look townie to me. People who ignore them or say "I just know" "It's fucking obvious" or just quote stuff to me... it makes it hard to engage and hard to trust them. That is where I think players like Unsight fell down. He may have been actively and effectively scumhunting. But there was no trust built up.
Compare that to a player like Mina, even one who was wrong a whole bunch. She spelled out why she had reached the conclussions she'd reached. So each time she made a case, I could assess her thoughts and from that decide whether she was scummy or not as well as whether her 'target' was scummy or not.

There's also the issue that I secretly want dick players to be scum so I can lynch them. Benmage, I'm looking in your direction.

[Benmage]

Was I that dick this game? I thought I did alright. But yes, I can be a bit-- unpleasant at times. I don't handle stupidity/inexperience well. There's a reason I've never ICd.

[Seacore]

I just mean generally.

I don't mean that necesarily offensively either, and you're not alone, so I probably shouldn't have singled you out. There are a lot of players on this site that don't seem to realise that town is actively harmed by being 'unpleasant'

I'm not saying everybody needs to be placating and worried about upsetting people. But I've been in games where (later flipped) townies refused to explain why they were voting for people. And when they were later lynched, their response was "idiots, I told you that Blah was scum, and you lynched me!"

Ultimately, pro-town behaviour is engaging in the discussion, revealing all of your motivations and reasons and participating in questioning the motivations and reasons of others. Yes, there are some circumstances when you need to be sneaky, often when PRs are involved, but most of the time, explain why you're doing what you're doing. That to me is scum hunting while looking town.

[hasdgfas]

I think there's possibly an useful distinction here.

1) Looking townish because you are actively participating in pro-town activities, the primary of which is obviously scum hunting.


2) Looking townish because you're trying not to upset people or make any waves.

I want people to do 1), and will probably try and lynch people who do 2)

I find it difficult to play with people who don't engage with reasonable questions. "Why do you think X is scum?" "You changed your vote from Y to Z after those last two posts, what in them made you change your mind?"

People who respond to those kinds of questions look townie to me. People who ignore them or say "I just know" "It's fucking obvious" or just quote stuff to me... it makes it hard to engage and hard to trust them. That is where I think players like Unsight fell down. He may have been actively and effectively scumhunting. But there was no trust built up.
Compare that to a player like Mina, even one who was wrong a whole bunch. She spelled out why she had reached the conclussions she'd reached. So each time she made a case, I could assess her thoughts and from that decide whether she was scummy or not as well as whether her 'target' was scummy or not.

I kind of agree with you here. I mean, I'll answer the questions people have for me, but what I mean about not caring if I look town is that I don't filter what I post as much. I'll ask a question or post a comment/observation if I think it's useful. It doesn't matter what people think of me for doing that. If I think it has the chance to be useful, I'm going to say it. That's why in the Kingsguard QT I said "should we all nameclaim in here?" Sure, we had already decided not to nameclaim in the main thread, but in a small group like that, I think it's worth it to lock someone into a nameclaim of some sort so they can't change their mind later. It's a totally different situation, and I knew I was going to get flak for it, but I had a reason for it and I felt it was a good, town reason, so I didn't care if someone thought I was scummy for that. That's sort of what I mean as opposed to the not caring what people think at all and just being a jerk. I'm not saying act in a way that hurts the town because you annoy a ton of people. But don't filter something out that could be incredibly useful because you think it may make you look a bit scummy.

[Benmage]

Hmm I don't think I'm too guilty of the xxxx is scum gogoog morons. I'm more heres why xxxx is scum. What you don't see the logic dumbass, moron, etc etc

[VP Baltar]

For future reference, a hydra that contradicts itself needs to be lynched asap. They are probably lying scum or VIs (and I hope I'm not considered the latter too much).

I don't think this is true at all.

Why is it not true? Why shouldn't a hydra be coming to compromises in their QT before they post? There is no reason for a town hydra to have a strong contradiction in its posts, just as there is no reason for any other player to have a strong contradiction in their posts.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I think Seacore’s 2752 quite nicely sums up my feelings on the subject.

Why is it not true? Why shouldn't a hydra be coming to compromises in their QT before they post? There is no reason for a town hydra to have a strong contradiction in its posts, just as there is no reason for any other player to have a strong contradiction in their posts.

QFT.

Although there are circumstances where differences of opinion aren’t troubling in my book a Hydra that has heads constantly voting and unvoting based on conflicting reads looks suspect, IMO.

I was a bit surprised at seeing how close I was at various points to being killed when I wasn't attacking any scum and was getting some negative attention. Too bad no one tried, because apparently Axelrod protected me N1 and N2 <3.

In my mind it wasn’t so much that you weren’t attacking scum as much as you were willing to document your reasons and provide support. As the game narrowed down and you inevitably turned your attention to actual scum it was much more work to fend you off. I’ll take my chances with players going ‘it’s a gut read, it’s so obv’ any day of the week over the way you approach case building.

On Day Five, you needed Mac alive. But on Day Six, town didn't have any more mislynches. Macavitar had outlived his useful lynch. Lynch Mac, kill diddin, and you're down to a four player MYLO. Either lynch CSL for the win (using the argument that there's no need to go to night with two confirmed players alive) or go to night and kill Richard. The only risk is if Thor wonders why he's alive instead of Richard.

I agree that looks like a good path. The problem lies with the switch from lynching CSL (who I have to suspect via PoE) to voting for Mac. It could not be accomplished, IMO, without a STRONG push from diddin and either Thor or Richard. The second I become the driving force behind a Mac lynch attempt is the second he turns on me (at least from my perspective … I thought they knew 100% I was the last Greyjoy going into that day. In hindsight obviously they didn’t). And there was no such strong push coming from anyone for Mac’s lynch that day.

Yes, I would loved to have lynched Mac, killed diddin and gone for the win. It was just not possible as the circumstances presented themselves, IMO.

BTW, just curious about something. How much of your vote count and partnership analysis was sincere, and how much fake? I see you mention thinking I was a Lannister in the QT. Also, was your idea to look at the early dana mob for Greyjoys instead of the early SSBF mob unconsciously inspired by Percy, born of the knowledge that Mikujin was evil, or just a coincidence?

I do think you started looking like you were pushing an agenda over the last couple of days, but you were stuck in a situation where you had to say that 2 + 2 = 5. And hey, you got away with it.

The VC Analysis was 99% sincere. Had I been Town I would have approached it in exactly the same way. Perhaps some of my push to the early dana Mob for Greyjoys was subconsciously influenced by my insider knowledge.

The Partnership analysis, on the other hand, was totally driven by my agenda on the ‘hunting Greyjoy’ end. The Lannister hunting was 100% sincere.

The reason I suspected you so strongly of being a Lannister has everything to do with dana’s N1 survival. I suspected strongly that there was a Lannister on the Kingsguard who was relaying that dana had a large likelihood of being Raivann’s kill target and thus had Raivann Roleblocked. By PoE that was you. It was an incorrect assumption (not knowing Ben had JKed dana) but it was why I made the case for you I did.

As for looking like a was pushing an agenda after Miku’s death – I was. Had we not had so many confirmed players left in the game I would have certainly played Day 5 on completely differently. I so wanted to lynch Mac Day 5 after you tracked him to a death. It would have completely offed them. But I took the hand I was dealt and made the best of the situation.

No offence, but you guys totally deserved that one. Because seriously. Speaking as a townie, I wanted to beat him with a blunt object at the beginning of the day, because I knew he was a goner. He was just so blatantly a watcher. If you claim watcher, you will be nightkilled. No way around it. Had there only been one scumteam alive, I'd have suspected him for it (because only scum would have a motivation for telegraphing their role like that)...but instead I just died a little inside.

He came forward a Day earlier than I would have liked. But by the time we got to discuss it (no Daytalk of course) the horse was already out of the barn. I wanted him to come out after Locke was dead so there would be a less obvious watch target and thus perhaps the other confirmeds (Richard, Thor, Cow) would be better targets for the Lannisters.

I'm a bit surprised at how willing all the scum were to put themselves out there as strong scumhunters and threats in a multi-scum environment. Actually, on the site I usually play (which is actually a forum devoted to A Song of Ice and Fire!), there's something known as Cerwyn's Bible. Since games are alted, it's easier to break with your usual meta, though.

I would only say that strict rules for how scum would and would not act are on some level doomed to fail because individual players react to situations differently. Alting certainly does alter the context.

[Faraday]

Mikujin's softclaim would have been great...in a 1 scumteam game, it just came across as a new player playing a power role and unsure how to approach it. But in multi scum, ya.

[Faraday]

This sounds like it was a pretty epic game, with a pretty epic ending.

I feel very sorry that I have no knowledge of the flavor.

But I liked how Magna and Macavitar played the final night.

<3 all around.

READ THE BOOKS REALLY QUICK?

[VP Baltar]

I agree that looks like a good path. The problem lies with the switch from lynching CSL (who I have to suspect via PoE) to voting for Mac. It could not be accomplished, IMO, without a STRONG push from diddin and either Thor or Richard. The second I become the driving force behind a Mac lynch attempt is the second he turns on me (at least from my perspective … I thought they knew 100% I was the last Greyjoy going into that day. In hindsight obviously they didn’t). And there was no such strong push coming from anyone for Mac’s lynch that day.

I agree that you didn't have as much of a choice as it appeared from the sidelines. We intentionally boxed you and CSL in a 1v1 because 1) it got attention off of us and 2) if either of you went elsewhere, it made you look MORE like scum. Ironically, we fooled ourselves with our own plan. We were both all but certain you were the last Greyjoy before we boxed the two of you, but then when CSL defected and started looking toward us it made us doubt our read on you because you stayed the course, which is actually what a townie would logically do in that situation. Fooled by our own trickery.

[Faraday]

CSL is ridiculous. He doesn't seem to think like a normal human being.

That's because I'm autistic. You have a problem with that?

ftr this was THE MOST uncomfortable moment ever. It also made me laugh , just because of the 'Do you have a problem with that?' line, I mean there's not really a lot you can say in response is there? Note I'm not laughing at autism. Got it?

[VP Baltar]

lol

[MacavityLock]

I agree that you didn't have as much of a choice as it appeared from the sidelines. We intentionally boxed you and CSL in a 1v1 because 1) it got attention off of us and 2) if either of you went elsewhere, it made you look MORE like scum. Ironically, we fooled ourselves with our own plan. We were both all but certain you were the last Greyjoy before we boxed the two of you, but then when CSL defected and started looking toward us it made us doubt our read on you because you stayed the course, which is actually what a townie would logically do in that situation. Fooled by our own trickery.

Actually, it looks like we were lucky that we got fooled. Had we stuck with our Magna-Greyjoy read, he totally would have outed us as Lanny before he got lynched. So, thanks CSL?

[LimMePls]

So, thanks CSL?

This coming from scum pretty much sums up this game.

[MacavityLock]

Oh, LMP, didn't get a chance to say, you did play very well, especially for someone new. I was impressed, and am even more so now that I got a chance to read the Kingsguard thread. We killed you for a reason :}

[LimMePls]

Oh, LMP, didn't get a chance to say, you did play very well, especially for someone new. I was impressed, and am even more so now that I got a chance to read the Kingsguard thread. We killed you for a reason :}

Thanks Mac.

Throughout D1 I had a list of 5 people I was going to invite to the King's Guard, and for the first half of the day you were on there. Then you when I started rereading, I remember getting some bad vibes, and when Mina and I got into an argument, I ended up thinking she was town, and you got bumped for her slot. Your play this game was fantastic. That fakeclaim was brilliant. I think the list went through like 10-15 different configurations, and you were easily on half of them, before I finally dropped you. You should be really proud of your play not just the fake claim, but the whole game.

[Benmage]

I'm pissed I didn't make the kingsguard.

[LimMePls]

I'm pissed I didn't make the kingsguard.

Sorry Benmage, IIRC this was my first experience with you, and your argument with Rifka (again, IIRC) made me unsure about you. I was still new, and your aggressiveness put me off a bit.

[Benmage]

I'm pissed I didn't make the kingsguard.

Sorry Benmage, IIRC this was my first experience with you, and your argument with Rifka (again, IIRC) made me unsure about you. I was still new, and your aggressiveness put me off a bit.

You owe me a neighbor/masonizing

[Axelrod]

I am going to pat myself on the back for This post, which is probably the most accurate thing I said all game.

Not much else to be proud of, and, of course, not long afterwards I was lynched.

[LimMePls]

I'm pissed I didn't make the kingsguard.

Sorry Benmage, IIRC this was my first experience with you, and your argument with Rifka (again, IIRC) made me unsure about you. I was still new, and your aggressiveness put me off a bit.

You owe me a neighbor/masonizing

Next time I've got 6 invites to a mason group, I'll send you two. Deal?

[xvart]

Yeah, it would have been fun to be in the Kingsguard. I was glad to read that I was considered. A little boost to my self esteem. I think it would have been interesting to have a member of both scum teams in there to see how the game dynamics might have changed.

xvart.

[MacavityLock]

In considering it, I'm quite glad that we didn't. Seeing that they were directing a kill to dana, we might have been forced to fight against that, or something. Our first 2 kills were originally directed at Kingsguard members, so we might have changed that so as not to tip our presence. All in all, I think it would have drastically changed the game, and I don't think to our benefit.

Interestingly, each scum team got a boost from town during N1. The Greyjoys got access to the Kingsguard, while we got Budja's Assassin kill.