Hydra Mafia (Day 4, I can't think of a clever title!)

[Mr Smith]

@Crab: Am I scum?

[Crab Canon]

You still didn't answer my question about one of your well reasoned arguments. Why do you want to give a VI an excuse to play like a VI? This is the third time I'm asking this question. You seem to be avoiding it.

Oh and the bolded is a strawman. Please don't do that.

I didn't answer it directly because it's a stupid fucking question that makes zero sense. Better? Furthermore, it was addressed (shocker) when I said that the point of the game isn't to lynch VIs, but rather to lynch scum. IT'S NOT MY PROBLEM IF YOU CANNOT TELL THE DIFFERENCE. I can actually read people who are just stupid town and therefore I would like to know who is who. I state again, I'm not here to play teacher and help others improve their game. I'm here to lynch scum. People not revealing who they are is a hindrance to that. Perhaps you should consult with your other head and ask them to talk some sense in to you.

In terms of strawman, meh. You've given very poorly reasoned arguments not to reveal, so I reserve the right to mock them with hyperbole. Provide better reasons and I will address them as such.

In terms of if we think you're scum, I can't really tell you. My gut says no based on your earlier attack of Bowser, but it's still early in the game and none of my reads are particularly well founded yet. Time will tell. Stay tuned!

[Mr Smith]

well, as long as you are going to consider my arguments not worth of replying, because they are "poorly reasoned", I don't see the point in this argument. You are arguing to have an argument, which can easily be seen. You don't think that I'm scum, but regardless you are saying a few things about me that town shouldn't say about people they think are town too.

a. you strawmanned one of my points for to make a more convincing argument.
b. you say I'm trying to get policy lynches going (that I'm trying to "teach" people), which I'm pretty sure I haven't said anywhere. (again to sound more convincing?)
c. you are avoiding questions from me, which hinders my investigation of you, and when you do answer, you say the question was stupid.

Now, either you are town who wants to end as the winner of every argument regardless of what it costs, or you are scum who wants to make every opponent in an argument look bad. Being aggressive is good, strawmanning people who you think may be town is bad.

[Crab Canon]

Mr. Smith: To answer about giving VIs excuses: from my part I'm not confident that the site culture is good at distinguishing scummy from player skill. Case in point:

To put another way, I have a hard time putting much faith in the idea that lynches actually do correlate with players' alignments in some way rather than some abstract concept of "player skill" when I can do this.

I hate idiotic play as much as the next person, but in my view it's subtler than that, reading alignment. In all my time in mafia scum I've played with exactly one scum who was

intentionally

trying to appear clueless (and he was pretty bad regardless). It's not a matter of giving excuses. You just have to look for different scum markers for different skill levels, experience levels, personality types, intentionality.
Meta can help. A little. It's not just the person in question. Also the people around them. Recently in a game there was a town moron that was lynched D1. D3 I researched her more and found that her newbie game had ended in the meanwhile and the mod was one of the players in our game, and the simultaneous knowledge of the moron's town alignment in the newbie game and controversial behaviour in our game to that inside knowledge made me rightly very confident that the mod was scum.
Bad town and scum are different, and bad town and bad scum are also different. Information can help. Sometimes. And there's not a single good reason to deprive ourselves of it. Just get it done.

To b: I can't see my partner talking about policy lynching anywhere, you are clearly stretching. The teaching part is implied here by you.

I think that as you could just as easily make the Hydra responsible for possible VI-behaviour. Is there a particular reason you are trying to allow a bad player to play bad?

In this game, he would actually have a chance to improve his play by working with his other head.

Seriously, what reason do you have to give a bad player an excuse to play bad?

Yay, I think I'm finally managing to post from the right account on the first try.

[IceCream]

/confirm.

Reading now.

[Chimaira]

Okay finally.

/Confirm.

Real post soon

[IceCream]

Ok, the first page:

.

I agree with the "telling heads is no fun" sentiment. I think the point of this game is for it to be anonymous.
I don't like Bowser's FoS, it's increda-pointless in the RVS. I'll keep my eye on him. (BTW Bowser, please keep posting things like "for goomba's sake, it's super funny).
I like Smith's vote for bowser after the FoS, and don't like Bowser's Random Vote right after it. I'm liking Bowser as scum at the moment.
Bowser Un-Foses? Lynch please?

FoS is not an irrelevant gesture.

It is in the RVS, especially being your first vote.

Second page

Bowser's post 31 is so anti-town, it's not even funny.
Tomandjerry's 34 isn't much better, the connection between the two is noted.
@OJ-37/Crab-38: Scum can use meta too, especially if someone's town and scum meta are close. The last thing we want is an artificially confirmed town hydra that is scum.
This half of Icecream agrees with Mr. Smith post 39

Third and fourth Page

BV311, could you not have a picture that's so similar to smith's? Thanks.

1. Your hydra name/pair (If you so wish)
2. Lynch all Liars/Lynch all Lurkers?
3. Do you think meta will help in this game?
4. If you had to lynch one person right now who would it be, why?
5. Timezone/how active each of you expect to be.
6. Your favorite role?

1) I do not wish. My other hydra head might, but for now I chose to remain anonymous
2) I'd say Lurkers should have more attention paid to them in this game, given that everyone's a hydra
3) See 1
4) Bowser, see above
5) EST (me), GMT+7 (other head)
6) Vanilla town, though I personally haven't played many other roles than that.

I don't like Smith's post 74. VI is not scummy, and I don't know where or why you made that assertion.
I will be watching the Smith-Crab argument, no comment on it at the moment.


Btw, Other half of the hydra is picking our avatar, since I chose the name.

[IceCream]

Oh, and

Vote: Bowser

, that might be important.

[Mr Smith]

I don't like Smith's post 74. VI is not scummy, and I don't know where or why you made that assertion.

I'm slightly confused where this is about. I'm in favor of having a pressure on real VI's to play better. Which is why I don't want talk about meta defenses right at the start of the game, as they are annoying as hell. I'm perfectly able to read some of the players who aren't playing too well, but making cases on them while half the game is posting that "the player sucks anyway" is annoying.

I think people who

act

like a VI (like BV311) are scum.

@Crab: that teaching quote is clearly within a hydra account. I don't see how you are bothered with this (and why you "didn't want to teach here"). I never said that you should. Just play your game. I do however expect players within a hydra to correct each other, and in my opinion that has to improve most of posts in this game. There is no real reason for VI-like behaviour, and if we don't give them an excuse

right from the start

to play badly (intentional), we might have an easier game as town, as more people are playing well.

Is it asked that much to simply wait with nameclaims until you really need them, to avoid meta-defense of VI's right at the start of the game?

[Bowser]

FoS is not an irrelevant gesture.

It is in the RVS, especially being your first vote.

what we actually wrote was

FoS is not an irrelevant gesture. Stating your suspicions is helpful. In this case it wasn't all that meaningful

lrn2readplz. Not two sentences later, we said "ok, it was dumb". If you're going to quote us out of context, do it better.

here, I'll quote you out of context

I'm scum at the moment

What? He said he's scum? Lynch him! What, you said all those words, don't act like I didn't quote you right. You're just mad because I caught you.

Bowser's post 31 is so anti-town, it's not even funny.

Why? Just calling something anti-town doesn't make it anti-town. Use your words.

1. Your hydra name/pair (If you so wish)
2. Lynch all Liars/Lynch all Lurkers?
3. Do you think meta will help in this game?
4. If you had to lynch one person right now who would it be, why?
5. Timezone/how active each of you expect to be.
6. Your favorite role?

1) CSL and UT
2) Lynch all Liars. Yes, 99% of the time. Lynch all Lurkers? Almost never.
3) It will be slightly less meaningful than meta is in single-player slots. Which is to say it's going to be about as useful as tits on a tractor, but just a little less useful.
4) IceCream
5) PST and EST. Um...very active?
6) Day vig (UT), Either cop or vig(CSL)

[Professor Paradox]

/confirm

/confirm

Some questions,

1. Your hydra name/pair (If you so wish)
2. Lynch all Liars/Lynch all Lurkers?
3. Do you think meta will help in this game?
4. If you had to lynch one person right now who would it be, why?
5. Timezone/how active each of you expect to be.
6. Your favorite role?

~Tom

1. Lateralus + ?
2. No, No. (Absolutes etc.)
3. Yes.
4. Don't know haven't read anything.
5. East. Pretty active...
6. Mason.

[Professor Paradox]

/confirm

Some questions,

1. Your hydra name/pair (If you so wish)
2. Lynch all Liars/Lynch all Lurkers?
3. Do you think meta will help in this game?
4. If you had to lynch one person right now who would it be, why?
5. Timezone/how active each of you expect to be.
6. Your favorite role?

~Tom

1. pacman here (other head already reported).
2. neither. I've seen a very strong counterexample to LaLiars before. LaLurkers is just too risky; you get way too little info from lurkers.
3. I dislike meta. It can be easily used to pass off easy scum play as town play. So, no.
4.

My other head

Not sure here. I got a small scum vibe from Bowser due to his "oh it's not day yet so posts here won't count towards the game" attitude.
5. EST. I'll have somehow limited access now, then no access for one week (thus my other head will be in cruise control for the time being). Then, I'll be moderately active (about once per day).
6.

Nk-Immune Compulsive Dayvig Death Miller

No idea either. I prefer being town, however.

[FourTigers]

Is it asked that much to simply wait with nameclaims until you really need them, to avoid meta-defense of VI's right at the start of the game?

Why would you need nameclaims near a lynch if you already say that its stupid to make them?

[Mr Smith]

So, just for the record Mr. Smith, you think it's scummy to have inverted pictures of other people's avatars

head B

but not to generally avoid commenting on things that every other active player is commenting on?

head A

me being head A

ATTENTION HEAD B: Bowser is scum.

I don't see bv311 playing as a VI as much as I see them just screwing around. Considering they still haven't posted since the thread reopened AND they hadn't posted anything (as far as I'm concerned) before the first lock anyways, I just don't see anyone making an attack on bv311 using valid logic at this point in time.

Also,

Give me 3 pro-town reasons not involving meta to claim heads and I'll gladly agree - I say this because you will NOT be able to do it.

When did your stance change from 'give me 3 reasons' to 'I'll never reveal because I'm too scared of people knowing who I am'?

tsk, meta doesn't even work on me. dunno about Head B.

I'm quite certain we gave you more than three reasons, all of them well reasoned enough.

Gave my problems with the first 2, third was lolno. Can't remember anything else.

Your original argument against revealing was that experienced players would be targeted, which I have shown to be malarkey.

Cool. That reason was me avoiding saying "I don't want to claim because it won't be any fun" because you'd be even more pissed if I said that. But that's how I feel.

I really don't see why you want town to be operating at a disadvantage. Anonymity was NOT the point of this game, nor was it ever stated to be as such. The point was random hydra pairings.

Might not be why you joined, but it's why I joined, and I'm not letting you ruin my fun just because of a theory argument.
My other head keeps using the term "strawman" and I don't have any idea what that means tbh.

Agree that you can read VIs regardless of their stupidity. That's beside the point though.

Ice Cream 81:
Thanks for not being specific about ANYTHING. AT ALL. Seriously. Your post is like an extreme version of what makes Bowser scummy - making no commitments, using unspecific language. I don't care what you don't like, or what you think is anti-town, I want to know what you think is scummy and why. Anti-town =/= scummy btw.

I think people who

act

like a VI (like BV311) are scum.

Head B, we need to start talking to each other before posting stupid things, okay? Okay.

here, I'll quote you out of context

I'm scum at the moment

What? He said he's scum? Lynch him! What, you said all those words, don't act like I didn't quote you right. You're just mad because I caught you.

This is 100% different from what IceCream did. Though what they did wasn't very good either

4) IceCream

looks like OMGUS to me

Is it asked that much to simply wait with nameclaims until you really need them, to avoid meta-defense of VI's right at the start of the game?

Why would you need nameclaims near a lynch if you already say that its stupid to make them?

you quoted Head B here and Head A is the one leading a crusade against nameclaims.

Sigh, this hydra is super-schizo it seems.

[Mr Smith]

unvote, vote: IceCream

HoS: Bowser

Yes, I think he's bussing. His attack is weak and easy to back out of. Bowser's counter-attack is just the same.

[FourTigers]

Is it asked that much to simply wait with nameclaims until you really need them, to avoid meta-defense of VI's right at the start of the game?

Why would you need nameclaims near a lynch if you already say that its stupid to make them?

you quoted Head B here and Head A is the one leading a crusade against nameclaims.

You should distinguish your posts then.

My point is that nameclaim is good. If you disagree, you should never support a nameclaim, in any situation, L-1 or not. Doing that brings in the meta that you guys seem to be so against bringing into this game. Nameclaim should not change anything late in a wagon that is not brought into effect early in the wagon. If you believe it will, you should nameclaim right now, since it will just save us a week of "X is scum" only to supposedly be all "oh wait meta nevermind" at the end.

Nameclaim now or never, or be outed by me once I figured out all of who the heads are, 5 including me IDed, 90% sure I know a 6th.

~Furry

I would consider voting IceCream, but still think bv311 hold presidence. I think a IC-TAJ is more likely then IC-Bowser though if you look at the relationships there. Smarter to say "X is scum with Y" where X is town and Y is your partner in an early stage, since if a X wagon shows up you wont end up getting your partner lynched while appearing to suspect them conditionally. Thats just personal theory though.

[Pineapple]

1. Your hydra name/pair (If you so wish)

Pineapple

2. Lynch all Liars/Lynch all Lurkers?

Sometimes town can lie to the benefit of the town, but scum tend to get more benefit from a lie. Lurking can be due to a multitude of reasons, not all game related, so it alone doesnt make for a good scum tell.

3. Do you think meta will help in this game?

Not really. Remember: The heads of each hydra will likely change their playstyle to make the co-op possible.

4. If you had to lynch one person right now who would it be, why?

bv311 for the confusing avatars

5. Timezone/how active each of you expect to be.

UTC -8 and +2. activity varies due to school and work.

6. Your favorite role?

One shot vig, role cop, and death vig

Additional question for whoever wants to answer: RVS or RQS?

RQS helps town gain info while scum can manipulate the RVS. On the flip side, scum manipulating RVS can result in catching scum and the information gained from RQS is usually only related to playstyle and meta and has little bearing on who is scum and who isn't

This message brought to you by the twin-mind of the tasty yellow fruit.

[bv311]

/confirm

Would like if my other head also /confirmed.

1. Your hydra name/pair (If you so wish):

bv311

2. Lynch all Liars/Lynch all Lurkers?:

Absolutes like these should never exist. Everything is situational

3. Do you think meta will help in this game?:

Definately not

4. If you had to lynch one person right now who would it be, why?:

Mr. Smith, for being no fun and a douche.

5. Timezone/how active each of you expect to be.:

Considering that my other head has yet to post

6. Your favorite role?:

Anything other than VT

Have not read thread. Do not know when I will have time to.

p.s. changing avatar when I get around to it.

Oh, speaking of avatars...

凸^^凸

<-For Mr. Smith

[IceCream]

Ice Cream 81:
Thanks for not being specific about ANYTHING. AT ALL. Seriously. Your post is like an extreme version of what makes Bowser scummy - making no commitments, using unspecific language. I don't care what you don't like, or what you think is anti-town, I want to know what you think is scummy and why. Anti-town =/= scummy btw.

It was a catchup post. Seeing as me and my hydra head are about halfway around the world from each other, I made it for his benefit as much as anyone else's.

[TomAndJerry]

1. Lateralus + ?
2. No, No. (Absolutes etc.)
3. Yes.
4. Don't know haven't read anything.
5. East. Pretty active...
6. Mason.

Interesting seeing as you haven't played as a Mason before, why are you lying?

[TomAndJerry]

Oh that was Tom, I'll try and get a better post tomorrow.

[MasterSpy]

1. Your hydra name/pair (If you so wish)
2. Lynch all Liars/Lynch all Lurkers?
3. Do you think meta will help in this game?
4. If you had to lynch one person right now who would it be, why?
5. Timezone/how active each of you expect to be.
6. Your favorite role?

1. MasterSpy – composed of the Black Spy and White Spy.
2. Outright adherence to any sort of hardline policy eventually gets Town killed. I support neither on a strict basis but agree that Town has limited reasons to realistically either Lie or Lurk.
3. I believe meta is marginally useful at best. I absolutely put ZERO stock in Town meta as it can easily be manipulated. Scum meta is only useful so far as it is consistently applicable and I find those circumstances few and far between.
4. I have a number of suspicions but I would place Pineapple at the head of my list.
5. EDT. This head expects to post generally often during the week.
6. No such thing. I prefer unique roles as opposed to cookie cutter or boilerplate standard options. My favorite role ever? It was at another site in a very customized game. -

Paparazzi – Each night I could take a picture of a Player for my blackmail files. At any time I could trade in a successfully taken blackmail picture to control said player’s vote for the rest of the Day. If I was ever nightkilled my photos would be made public record and any Mafia players would be publicly disclosed by the Mod the following Day. Games there usually had 20+ players and lasted between 7 and 12 game days.

looks like OMGUS to me

Hey Head A – are you implying OMGUS is a scum-tell? Otherwise why even note it?

Vote: Mr. Smith Only scum have a reason to hide their heads. Anyone else want to back up Mr. Scum Smith?

Way back in the Pre-Game shenanigans I found this gem. Having hashed this out a little with my other head I think this exactly the opposite of the facts.

Scum will be sharing their identities with each other so they already know a number of the Hydras. It is in their best interests to push for ‘full’ disclosure, if only to hone in on the players they deem ‘most dangerous’ in the field.

Meta reasons do apply. On what grounds do you have to say that they don't? For instance, if a hydra contains a known VI and begins to act highly irrationally, but the town as a whole does not know about the VIs presence, that is more likely to lead to a mislynch that could have easily been avoided with a little meta.

Additionally, the converse of your reason, that scum will target the experienced players, is that having the experienced players out in the open allows any protective roles to operate more efficiently. Same for any other power role really.

The first argument is theoretical but not really applicable here. Review the full player list in the sign-up post – there is only one player who could be categorized as a VI and I think that’s a stretch.

The second argument is also not really applicable. Experienced players are not guaranteed to be Town. Additionally, once again, the playerlist looks sufficiently deep that looking for Docs / other defenders to aim for Experienced players is pointless. Solid Town play in thread should determine potential Doc protections, not join date.

Also I love Crab’s not so subtle attempt at 42 to point out Hydras as lurkers despite not every account being activated. Noted for the record.

PREVIEW EDIT: This isn't Day 1 yet. Stop acting like it is, please.

Information exchanged in the thread is useful in potentially determining a Hydra’s alignment, regardless of whether Day 1 is officially started or not. This is essentially the same argument that states that nothing can possibly be learned from RVS / RQS.

What? He said he's scum? Lynch him! What, you said all those words, don't act like I didn't quote you right. You're just mad because I caught you.

Horrible argument here. Icecream quoted a specific sentence from your post. You cut and pasted words that were not linked in that manner from their post. His is responding to a specific comment. Yours is plain quote tampering.

If who someone is has a direct effect on how you view them, isnt a massnameclaim best to start the game as it would prevent going through motions only to have the claim change your idea?

Whoa … back up the train right here. Town play is about consistency. If you are stating right here that what behavior you find scummy from a Hydra is going to be dependant on knowledge of the heads then I find that bad policy and scummy.

If something is scum behavior it is scum behavior, regardless of who it comes from. The Hydra element removes the need to give players any sort of pass based on ‘scummy playstyle’ concerns.

My point is that nameclaim is good. If you disagree, you should never support a nameclaim, in any situation, L-1 or not. Doing that brings in the meta that you guys seem to be so against bringing into this game. Nameclaim should not change anything late in a wagon that is not brought into effect early in the wagon. If you believe it will, you should nameclaim right now, since it will just save us a week of "X is scum" only to supposedly be all "oh wait meta nevermind" at the end.

Nameclaim now or never, or be outed by me once I figured out all of who the heads are, 5 including me IDed, 90% sure I know a 6th.

I agree with the notion that name-claiming at L-1 is inconsistent with a stance on disagreeing with nameclaiming now.

The threatening tactics, on the other hand, are pointless. What scum-hunting motive do you have in this statement? Unless you can prove that said Hydra heads have a history of playing Alts because of strong scum meta you aren’t bringing anything to the table.

~ The Black Spy, who will actually add the avatar to the account once he gets access to his own computer on Monday where it is stored.

I need to talk things over with my other head as to where our vote might go.

[FourTigers]

The threatening tactics, on the other hand, are pointless. What scum-hunting motive do you have in this statement? Unless you can prove that said Hydra heads have a history of playing Alts because of strong scum meta you aren’t bringing anything to the table.

I have already stated my scumhunting motive for trying to get a nameclaim. My meta reading ability is good at IDing people not playing to their town meta, which I need to know who people are to help me read. I have played with/modded fifteen of the players in this game, so have a pretty good idea how most of the game plays as town. It prevents players doing something that doesnt match their town meta that they can get away with, prevents people from lurking, and aids people like me who can use meta to ID scum.

Hydras to me are about getting someone who you know is town to run your ideas through, essentially having a mason buddy in the game. Hydras are not about being all hiding in your gameplay. I have skimmed quite a few games with hydras, and the one time a hydra refused to claim heads, they were scum. I have never seen a town hydra refuse to give that information to the town. Alts are not bad, but... this is not an alt game. I am actively hunting down who is playing each hydra right now, and will make it one of my top goals in this game to name them all. It will be very useful for me to figure out, so will do so.

Interesting seeing as you haven't played as a Mason before, why are you lying?

Seriously? You dont have to have played something to know that you would enjoy the role. I know that I would love drawing the Innocent Child role since it is essentially a VT, but can clear myself if ever needed. Have I had that role before? No. Would I like to? Of course.

~Furry

[TomAndJerry]

Seriously? You dont have to have played something to know that you would enjoy the role. I know that I would love drawing the Innocent Child role since it is essentially a VT, but can clear myself if ever needed. Have I had that role before? No. Would I like to? Of course.

Well actually, yes you do, I did a quick skim of his meta so I don't see anything indicating his preference to enjoying being a mason which leads me to think he's lying about who he claims to be, your thoughts on that?

[FourTigers]

Seriously? You dont have to have played something to know that you would enjoy the role. I know that I would love drawing the Innocent Child role since it is essentially a VT, but can clear myself if ever needed. Have I had that role before? No. Would I like to? Of course.

Well actually, yes you do, I did a quick skim of his meta so I don't see anything indicating his preference to enjoying being a mason which leads me to think he's lying about who he claims to be, your thoughts on that?

I think that is a stupid thought to be perfectly blunt. You seriously think that someone is lying about who they are? In a game where they will undoubtedly be counterclaimed? Lots of people would like to be mason or anything along the lines of confirmed town since they can concentrate purely on scumhunting and not have to worry about night actions or being lynched. I will bet lots of money that he is who he says he is, no one will lie about that. I cant even think of something comprable that it would be lying to.

Also I just figured out who one head of masterspy is, its someone I have town meta on. Yay me.

~Furry