Hydra Mafia (Day 4, I can't think of a clever title!)

[Mr Smith]

VOTE: bowser

[FourTigers]

Damn, had smith was Parama+RC in my notes. Close enough. Now tone it down you two.

Few questions here from me. Do not want to vote before I talk about it with my other self since I havent talked to him since about page two when our account was not activated. Guess who my scum reads are though from the following.

Additional question for whoever wants to answer: RVS or RQS?

RQS helps town gain info while scum can manipulate the RVS. On the flip side, scum manipulating RVS can result in catching scum and the information gained from RQS is usually only related to playstyle and meta and has little bearing on who is scum and who isn't

So what is your final thought here? You comment on both being good for town, then both being bad for town, and then procede to do neither. What is your thought as to which is better instead of why they both can benifit us? Also why have you avoided doing either?

Thoughts on anything as well? The extent of you doing pushing on any individual was asking bv to change his avatar, which actually puts you on the same level, if not worse due to your activity, as he is for actually bothering to contribute. You say that there have been attempts to scumhunt being drowned by meta arguements, yet I see no attempt from you to do anything to stop this, or to push scumhunting above meta apart from a single post complaining about it.

What do you think of the votes on Bowser? TAJ? IC?

even so i dont really see the problem in revealing heads, particularly under pressure(as in L-1). it would be akin to name/role claiming in a regular themed game i'd expect.

What does this have to do with the price of beans? You made an arguement that meta will be useless in this game, yet you are also saying that meta should come into play at L-1 for some reason or another. What would nameclaim mean to you at L-1? Would it make you change your mind due to a VI? Would it make you confirm that someone is scum since they are a decent player? Would their meta come into play then?

Vote: TomandJerry

For posting questions and not actually answering themselves. The rest of the thread is a blur and I will probably try and read it again later.

My scumdar is pinging. Why is him asking the questions scummy?

So you are voting him due to disagrement on a tell? I normally would heartily agree that the questions are scummy, but in this case none of them are worded in such a way that it will warp into a semantics arguement over how to play the game apart for the weak meta arguements.

Yo Bwser, chillax man you are being a little annoying.

Mr Smith, I get your logic but how bout we all wait till Day one to annoy each other and call each other scumbags and such?

~Jerry (And I'm keepin the peace)

So what are your thoughts on the matter? This was brushing off the push on Bowser from Smith, but you never really followed up on this at any point. Why do we need to wait for mod to say go before forming opinions?

Class time. See you in a few days.

~Furry

[Mr Smith]

Damn, had smith was Parama+RC in my notes. Close enough. Now tone it down you two.

Lol, myko may be gone, but I'm not going to shut up because you can't place a decent vote after six full pages of discussion.

[bv311]

I love this game already, am beyond amused by Mr Smith.

Vote will be placed accordingly when I read through the thread tonight. Currently this hydra is running on .5 heads (half my head running, and other head has been mia).

[TomAndJerry]

I think that is a stupid thought to be perfectly blunt. You seriously think that someone is lying about who they are? In a game where they will undoubtedly be counterclaimed? Lots of people would like to be mason or anything along the lines of confirmed town since they can concentrate purely on scumhunting and not have to worry about night actions or being lynched. I will bet lots of money that he is who he says he is, no one will lie about that. I cant even think of something comprable that it would be lying to.

Alright, this is what I've learned from my questions First off FourTigers can't even distinguish two different players from another so he's failed horribly in proving his meta reading abilities.

Second it's obvious that despite how much FourTigers thinks meta is useful, I'm fairly certain he has not checked Lateralus's meta to verify his identity after my accusation. If he did he would see these after a quick look at a few of my games he would know I generally spend my time commenting on more stuff, in contrast to how Prof's post contained little info. (Note: I recall lurking in one game early on due to rl problems but I'm generally commenting on multiple things, this game was a exception due to what I wanted to try) Ok, maybe I'm being too harsh on the meta thing but then again he has constantly praised and advocated how important it would be to name claim and because of the meta info that'll be available. You would think he would investigate further if there had been an accusation of someone lying about their identity instead of [url=http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p2582580]rationalizing[/quote] it.

Second, because this game seemed to moving very fast compared to what I'm used to before (This is my first large game) I'm revealing this now.

I didn't counter claim Prof before because frankly, I thought it'd be hilarious to see him try and impersonate me and my partner thought we should go along with it. Course I didn't want to leave him like the whole game so I decided more info would be gained if I caught him in the act. Initially when he claimed I was confused because I was like, wtf? Then I realized after both he and his partner claimed they're both probably in the let's know everyone's names categories so I thought they just wanted everyone to out their name.

Except, it doesn't make sense for them to keep it on this long, especially after I attacked Prof for lying because continuing this would end up confusing town if there was no claim and if his sole goal was to out someone's name it doesn't make sense for them not to say they lied about that after it became apparent they wouldn't get a claim since that'd be a more efficient plan for them.

tl;dr

FourTiger's meta ability isn't that good, and as such because of the lack investigation I doubt his intentions are real
Prof's claim is weird because the way it's presented hurts town more to keep up the charade instead of outing soon.

Oh,

Name claim: Lateralus22

~Tom

Did a skim of the thread, now I'm going to go read it and comment.

[Mr Smith]

Tom's early attack on PP earlier that made him look scummy before now makes him look obvtown.

And PP needs to explain why he's lying about his nameclaim.

[Crab Canon]

you misunderstand. we do need to scum hunt.

I realize we need to scumhunt. My point is that you were making excuses about why you couldn't scumhunt yet by saying that other people needed to first. Then I asked if this was a prerequisite to your scumhunting and you said no. I don't understand why you needed other people to scum hunt first then. You said that the meta discussion was getting in the way of your scumhunting, why is that?

so can we please not make the "He is playing differently so he must be scum" argument?

Was not planning on it at all. The biggest thing I use meta for is assessing competency. I know you and therefore I have an idea of what level of scumhunting to expect from you. That's the extent that i personally use meta. I find it kind of annoying that you were fighting so hard for

that

and I do think it was anti-town, but whatever. By-gones are by-gones and you're outted now.

Definitely would like to hear Professor Paradox explain their reasoning behind faking.

[Professor Paradox]

pacman here.

Tom's early attack on PP earlier that made him look scummy before now makes him look obvtown.

And PP needs to explain why he's lying about his nameclaim.

What can I say... my other idiotic head decided it would be fun to fakeclaim its head.
I just decided to follow through. I warned him, but...
Other head is slightly pissed at the fact the consequences weren't as hilarious as expected. lol.
I don't know if my other head will claim again or not. It's his choice .
OH WAI RVS ALREADY? WAIT FOR MEEH!!!

Vote: Pineapple

because fruits are tasty.
Currently re-re-reading. Lots of discussion between CC and Mr Smith there. Heh.

[Mr Smith]

Okay yeah RVS is long gone. Thanks for ignoring the discussion even though you appear to be well aware of what we're discussing.

unvote, vote: PP

Will join a Boswer wagon if it forms (wouldn't be suprised if took off now that I'm off the wagon <_<)

[bv310]

Nice to see you guys keeping the activity up. Carry on.

[Professor Paradox]

Okay yeah RVS is long gone. Thanks for ignoring the discussion even though you appear to be well aware of what we're discussing.

unvote, vote: PP

Will join a Boswer wagon if it forms (wouldn't be suprised if took off now that I'm off the wagon <_<)

I've not done the reread yet.
However, you're right. No RVS.

Unvote.

[FourTigers]

Alright, this is what I've learned from my questions First off FourTigers can't even distinguish two different players from another so he's failed horribly in proving his meta reading abilities.

When both of you had maybe 100 total words, its hard to actually figure out that someone is fake nameclaiming. This big post matches up more with what I have seen from you in the past.

Second it's obvious that despite how much FourTigers thinks meta is useful, I'm fairly certain he has not checked Lateralus's meta to verify his identity after my accusation. If he did he would see these after a quick look at a few of my games he would know I generally spend my time commenting on more stuff, in contrast to how Prof's post contained little info. (Note: I recall lurking in one game early on due to rl problems but I'm generally commenting on multiple things, this game was a exception due to what I wanted to try) Ok, maybe I'm being too harsh on the meta thing but then again he has constantly praised and advocated how important it would be to name claim and because of the meta info that'll be available. You would think he would investigate further if there had been an accusation of someone lying about their identity instead of rationalizing it.

You, or PP haddnt made enough of a large post to make me known otherwise, so I simply assumed that someone was telling the truth about something that was beyond a doubt proven to be false if it was false. I still think meta is good since most people have a similar thought process as town in each game, while as scum there is more of a reason to adjust thought process. I just felt like I would not need to research a nameclaim when all the players in the game were revealed.

Except, it doesn't make sense for them to keep it on this long, especially after I attacked Prof for lying because continuing this would end up confusing town if there was no claim and if his sole goal was to out someone's name it doesn't make sense for them not to say they lied about that after it became apparent they wouldn't get a claim since that'd be a more efficient plan for them.

What type of tell is it that he claimed to be you?

FourTiger's meta ability isn't that good, and as such because of the lack investigation I doubt his intentions are real
Prof's claim is weird because the way it's presented hurts town more to keep up the charade instead of outing soon.

I actually do have a strong ability at meta-ing people when I have seen them play as town in a game where I was town in the past. This situation has way to little information to make me think otherwise though. If the game went on I think that I would have actually ended up calling PP scum for not matching what I know your town meta is.

I still do not know where my partner is, and want to get the game going...

Vote Pineapple

@Smith - Why is fakenameclaiming a scumtell?

~Furry

[Crab Canon]

I don't like this:

I wanted to see how it [Smith vs. Crab] would turn out without being tainted by my comments. Seeing as you've moved on, I think it was almost certainly Town vs Town, but I needed to see it thought to the end to make sure.

"To make sure" implies Cream had the assumption of something to the direction of prob town vs. town at the time of making the original comment.
Cream's original snippet was

I don't like Smith's post 74. VI is not scummy, and I don't know where or why you made that assertion.
I will be watching the Smith-Crab argument, no comment on it at the moment.

Those lines were consequent, and there were several other mentions of disagreeing with us or agreeing with Smith in related matters in the post. This "I'll be watching you" reads like highlighting but not taking sides, but not in the "this is prob town-town" way, and expressing dislike for Smith's post at the height of the fire doesn't match with not wanting to taint by comments.

vote: IceCream

[IceCream]

- You ignore the debate of meta in regards to claiming saying that it is "more fun not to" despite seeming to think meta will slightly help
- Scare tactics that meta will "falsely confirm scum as town". You ignore the fact that meta DOES work, which is why it is used on this site, to latch onto a worse case scenario
- Not giving reasoning on why TAJ is scum connected to Bowser, just that he is.
- Commentary of the Smith-CC debate, that meaning there is none, just a "oh look at this" comment followed by moving on.

1> You basically contradicted yourself with that post. You say I ignore then say that I provide my opinion. So what if I want fun?
2> That was Cream. And you contradicted your first post again, saying I think meta will slightly help then saying I ignore that meta does work.
3> Like I said, Cream just gave his general page read. Do you really think he's making a case?
4> Meaning ..?

Vote Pineapple

~Furry

You voted Pineapple while blasting away about how Us and TnJ were scum?

but I needed to see it thought to the end to make sure.

I will be watching the Smith-Crab argument, no comment on it at the moment.

I think this line of thought is consistent.

Those lines were consequent, and there were several other mentions of disagreeing with us or agreeing with Smith in related matters in the post. This "I'll be watching you" reads like highlighting but not taking sides, but not in the "this is prob town-town" way, and expressing dislike for Smith's post at the height of the fire doesn't match with not wanting to taint by comments.

vote: IceCream

Clarify. Now.

~Ice

[FourTigers]

- You ignore the debate of meta in regards to claiming saying that it is "more fun not to" despite seeming to think meta will slightly help
- Scare tactics that meta will "falsely confirm scum as town". You ignore the fact that meta DOES work, which is why it is used on this site, to latch onto a worse case scenario
- Not giving reasoning on why TAJ is scum connected to Bowser, just that he is.
- Commentary of the Smith-CC debate, that meaning there is none, just a "oh look at this" comment followed by moving on.

1> You basically contradicted yourself with that post. You say I ignore then say that I provide my opinion. So what if I want fun?
2> That was Cream. And you contradicted your first post again, saying I think meta will slightly help then saying I ignore that meta does work.
3> Like I said, Cream just gave his general page read. Do you really think he's making a case?
4> Meaning ..?

1 and 2 are my point. You keep going all over the place, saying that meta is good, then meta is bad, then it will help, then it can cause us to loose the game. Whoever made that post gave two reasons both ways then never came to a conclusion over the usefulness of meta apart from "its fun to not claim".
3 - Well, again Cream says that TNJ is scum with Bowser and that was it. Then you attack me for a similar statement, and CC for a similar statement, and I think someone else for a similar statement. People can say "X is scummy" without laying out a case immediately.
4 - This was another instance of you realizing that something is happening of importance, yet you make every attempt to ignore giving any input in the matter, in this case it allows you to fully adapt later game reads to whatever you want them to be, simply because you never gave an inital starting point.

Vote Pineapple

~Furry

You voted Pineapple while blasting away about how Us and TnJ were scum?

Yes I did vote him. Did you miss the post earlier on this page where I say he is scummy? Also TNJ is not scum anymore given the whole nameclaim. You are still in my top three hands down though, would not shed a tear with your lynch.

~Furry

and I wonder why my flocc basin design is a few days behind scheduel when I do this instead of sleep....

[Mr Smith]

@Smith - Why is fakenameclaiming a scumtell?

It is questionable from the start. I have tried to withhold information, but I had my reasons for that, and I was planning to give our names away later in the game.

But, that isn't my biggest problem. What happens in this post is what makes me think PP is scum.

pacman here.

Tom's early attack on PP earlier that made him look scummy before now makes him look obvtown.

And PP needs to explain why he's lying about his nameclaim.

What can I say... my other idiotic head decided it would be fun to fakeclaim its head.
I just decided to follow through. I warned him, but...
Other head is slightly pissed at the fact the consequences weren't as hilarious as expected. lol.
I don't know if my other head will claim again or not. It's his choice .
OH WAI RVS ALREADY? WAIT FOR MEEH!!!

Vote: Pineapple

because fruits are tasty.
Currently re-re-reading. Lots of discussion between CC and Mr Smith there. Heh.

"my other idiotic head" is an excuse I'm never going to accept. He's simply avoiding responsibility. If myko does anything scummy, WE are responsible, not just myko. And then, a random vote with already six pages of discussion is nothing more then trying to fit in without doing anything.

[Faranor]

1. Your hydra name/pair (If you so wish)

We are Fara- and -Nor. Obviously we are the only uncreative pair in the bunch.

2. Lynch all Liars/Lynch all Lurkers?

I prefer Lynch all Policy Lynchers.

3. Do you think meta will help in this game?

Meta's helpful in any game. The answer to this depends on whether or not other people claim their names.

4. If you had to lynch one person right now who would it be, why?

Mr. Smith for calling Bowser scummy for having two random opinions (the FoS and vote, which I suspect were from different heads, making it null).

5. Timezone/how active each of you expect to be.

I'll be posting once per day, hopefully. I live in MST.

6. Your favorite role?

Let's go with Vigilante.

Why do you want to give a VI an excuse to play like a VI?

Why do you want to give scum a reason to lynch VIs? There's a reason for why they're called VIs. It is because they act like VIs.

"my other idiotic head" is an excuse I'm never going to accept. He's simply avoiding responsibility. If myko does anything scummy, WE are responsible, not just myko.

So fakenameclaiming is scummy because it is scummy.
You're trying to make null-tells into scum-tells.

Unvote. Vote: Mr. Smith.

I think I see why Fara~ voted for IceCream, but this vote is better.
Furry is town.
CC is probably town.

My eyes feel like doughnuts.
-~Nor

[Mr Smith]

1. You cannot be sure that the vote and the FoS were from different heads. Even if they are, they are still the same player and should pay attention to what each other are saying.
2. bv311 is acting like a VI but that doesn't make him scum. Like I've already said, PP or Bowser are by far the best lynches for today.
3. Ask yourself this: How does fakenameclaiming help the town, in any way? Now ask yourself this: Also, you completely ignored what was being said in that last quote - they are still the same player, regardless of their individual personalities.

[Pineapple]

Few questions here from me. Do not want to vote before I talk about it with my other self since I havent talked to him since about page two when our account was not activated. Guess who my scum reads are though from the following.

Additional question for whoever wants to answer: RVS or RQS?

RQS helps town gain info while scum can manipulate the RVS. On the flip side, scum manipulating RVS can result in catching scum and the information gained from RQS is usually only related to playstyle and meta and has little bearing on who is scum and who isn't

So what is your final thought here? You comment on both being good for town, then both being bad for town, and then procede to do neither. What is your thought as to which is better instead of why they both can benifit us? Also why have you avoided doing either?

One of us thinks the RVS is better, the other thinks that RQS is better. And since my other head doesnt seem to be very active, we didnt really get much chance to discuss it. I personally prefer RVS though. However, the game is beyond that point.

Thoughts on anything as well? The extent of you doing pushing on any individual was asking bv to change his avatar, which actually puts you on the same level, if not worse due to your activity, as he is for actually bothering to contribute. You say that there have been attempts to scumhunt being drowned by meta arguements, yet I see no attempt from you to do anything to stop this, or to push scumhunting above meta apart from a single post complaining about it.

Chimaira's vote is weak. PP's RVS vote/unvote as well as head fakeclaim comes off as anti-town play. still dont like bv311's play. Faranor's vote on Mr. Smith is weak as well. everyone else i have either a slight town read or is null.

What do you think of the votes on Bowser? TAJ? IC?

Bowser vote was expected from Mr. Smith. Not the best place for a vote imo though. TaJ vote is weak. don't have a problem with the IC vote right now.

even so i dont really see the problem in revealing heads, particularly under pressure(as in L-1). it would be akin to name/role claiming in a regular themed game i'd expect.

What does this have to do with the price of beans? You made an arguement that meta will be useless in this game, yet you are also saying that meta should come into play at L-1 for some reason or another. What would nameclaim mean to you at L-1? Would it make you change your mind due to a VI? Would it make you confirm that someone is scum since they are a decent player? Would their meta come into play then?

i personally am not a huge fan of using meta. i have, but i dont like too. people can easily change the way they are playing a game for a variety of reasons, not necessarily because they are scum. however, i do recognize that other people are able to use meta to help. however, a person's play in the game is imo a far more important piece of info then any meta on them.

~Furry

answer's in bold.

with that in mind... VOTE: Professor Paradox i look forward to the results of his reread.

[Pineapple]

EBWOP:

VOTE: Professor Paradox

(making sure mod sees it and counts it)

[Professor Paradox]

ahahahahaha
AHAHAHAHAHAA
KISHISHISHISHISHI

I'M BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACK.
Fakeclaimed because I thought it would be absolutely hilarious and might get a few reads in the process.
Will catch up by tonight.
Or something like that.

[TomAndJerry]

Tried to read through the meta arguments yesterday regarding how wise it would be to have a massclaim for names, ended up face palming myself because of how long it went and just decided to do my homework instead. The whole argument is null in terms of alignment, though I do think that if we continue to argue about this we should just get it over with now. I actually do like meta and I've used it in the past, but I've also seen it crash and burn no matter how convincing it may look. In this game I simply do not think meta will help because of the hydra setup.

This is exactly why trying to figure out meta is not all that helpful. However, this hydra has talked it over and decided that trying to figure out heads is a null-tell, not scummy. For the record, this hydra has decided to out itself as Untrod and CSL. Just as a show of good faith. UnFoS

It was a joke FoS. Who makes a "legit" anything in post #9? Do you think we're retarded?

That doesn't make sense, why would you UnFoS someone and give logical reasoning supporting this and then in the very last part of your post say your Fos was a joke? You treated it in a serious way.

Ice Cream 81:
Thanks for not being specific about ANYTHING. AT ALL. Seriously. Your post is like an extreme version of what makes Bowser scummy - making no commitments, using unspecific language. I don't care what you don't like, or what you think is anti-town, I want to know what you think is scummy and why. Anti-town =/= scummy btw.

I don't see anything wrong with her initial vote, and how is he not making any commitments when he voted in his next post?

You voted Pineapple while blasting away about how Us and TnJ were scum?

Weaksauce accusation, in Post #151 FourTigers was also attacking Pineapple (First two paragraphs)

It is questionable from the start. I have tried to withhold information, but I had my reasons for that, and I was planning to give our names away later in the game.

You didn't actually answer his question, why do you think it was scummy?

Why do you want to give scum a reason to lynch VIs? There's a reason for why they're called VIs. It is because they act like VIs.

VI's have the same exact chance of being scum, are there any notable VI's that you think we should all look out for in this game?

One of us thinks the RVS is better, the other thinks that RQS is better. And since my other head doesnt seem to be very active, we didnt really get much chance to discuss it. I personally prefer RVS though. However, the game is beyond that point.

Not going to fly, first off both you and your partner who you claim is not very active was here for the two of you to collaborate on your RQS answers which is odd in itself.

Second it doesn't make sense for you as an individual not to scum hunt because you've posted multiple times in first person (I).

In post #168 you spent some effort commenting towards FourTigers however you did not display the same effort for your vote. Why the lack of explanation?

This head wants to go for a Pineapple lynch, but I want to talk to my partner before we vote. Bowser looks pretty bad too with the FoS fiasco. Gut is bothering me about Mr. Smith.

~Tom

[Professor Paradox]

Chimaira is town.

[Professor Paradox]

So are T/J and Crab.

[Professor Paradox]

Wait, Mr. Smith, did you think that bv311's idea was legit scummy >.>