Hydra Mafia (Day 4, I can't think of a clever title!)

[Chimaira]

It's not a mod vote count (which would be nice) but here's a Troll Vote Count (with correction to Mr Smith's vote):

Professor Paradox: 3: Mr Smith (3), Pineapple (7), Chimaira (9)
Pineapple: 3: FourTigers (4), MasterSpy (8), Faranor (12)
Bowser: 3: Professor Paradox (10), bv311 (11), TomAndJerry (13)
IceCream: 1: Crab Canon (5)

Not Voting: Bowser, IceCream

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

With that correction that Mr Smith wasn't on the Bowser wagon at the time I dislike bv311's Bowser vote less in terms of opportunism. I still want to see much more interaction with the game.

Also, we're using a fairly quick set of deadlines for MS in this game with no reduced numbers needed to lynch at the end of the day. I suspect that the nature of hydras will naturally slow down the voting and consensus process to some degree and we probably need to make sure we fight that. Hydras shouldn't have major spats in thread but for the sake of pace of game and information individual threads certainly shouldn't be afraid to do most of the analysis they would normally do in the thread as they normally would without consulting their partner. Time-wise we can't afford to let the hydras make sure they're completely consistent before posting any thoughts of value.

I also did a bit of looking and it seems that I do expect Ellibereth to list town suspects when he's scum as well. It's not a scum tell for him but it's not a town tell either like I was thinking it might be. I'd still guess town for Professor Paradox but now it's more of an expected value with no particular reason to think scum thing that it used to be. I haven't had a chance to talk with Sotty7 about him yet.

@bv311, other than Bowser who in the thread is doing things that you don't care for?

@Faranor, do you still think that bv311 is likely to be town?

@Bowser, when should we expect more content from you? Are you aware of the deadline structure in this game?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Bowser]

@ Trollmaira: Hopefully today. If not, then tomorrow. One head is ill, and the other head is having issues with schoolwork.

We'll likely draw up a post sometime today for you guys to disect.

~CSL

[bv310]

Well then maybe I'll just do one of my own.

Anyway, since he's right and I do owe you guys one, here's an Official Vote Count:

Professor Paradox (L-4): Mr Smith, Pineapple, Chimaira
Pineapple (L-4): FourTigers, MasterSpy, Faranor
Bowser(L-4): Professor Paradox, bv311, TomAndJerry
IceCream(L-6): Crab Canon

Not Voting: Bowser, IceCream

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline is currently set for Saturday, October 30, 2010 at 11:59pm (I gave an extra two days due to account issues)

[TomAndJerry]

You are trying to nitpick a statement apart. A statement that you don't understand. I was very clear that I would consider accidentaly outing your name to be a slight towntell. However, since it is such a minor tell, scum wouldn't abuse it, so I have no idea where you get that we think Icecream is scum because they outed themselves. You are turning my point around, and I don't know why.

Ok… then what's the point of these posts, are they just fluff, because you're going in a rather roundabout way to say you think it's a towntell, which btw made it very unclear to me >.>.

I can also tell you why accidentaly revealing your real name is slightly protown,

but scum would abuse that

, wouldn't they?

They could "slip up" on purpose and then take fake townie points for it,

right? That's why I'm not telling.

I'm sorry, but I don't understand at all what situation we are talking about. But I have a question, since these questions seem to be about the explanation of one vote: was it a terrible vote? Otherwise I don't really know why you are making such a fuss about it.

Are you freaken kidding me, you're so lazy that you can't even look at my Iso to answer a few questions?

First one's about your attack on Icecream, second is about is about Prof fakeclaiming, third is Pacman's reaction.

[TomAndJerry]

~Tom

PS: The lack of activity compared to a few days ago is depressing.

[MasterSpy]

This the BlackSpy requesting a prod on the WhiteSpy. In all seriousness I’m tired of being the only face in the thread.

@MOD – Can I request more consistent Vote Counts please?

The nature of the Hydra game is going to make alternative scum-hunting measures (other than behavioral tells) important. I expect VC analysis to be one of these valuable tools. Without VCs at least once every 3 pages (at worst) you are crippling Town’s ability to use VC analysis effectively.

The reaction to Prof Paradox’s ‘fake-name gambit’ makes my blood boil. This is one of my biggest problems with the culture here on MS.

1. Prof Paradox (in Elli) makes a stupid fake-claim on a name. Regardless of the ‘reads’ expected to be drawn from it Elli’s other half clearly stated it was mainly for the lulz.
2. The fake-claim is expectedly unmasked.
3. Elli reveals he is the culprit.
4. Almost everyone basically waves it away as ‘Normal Elli and thus Null’

The fact of the matter is the fake-claim further derailed the thread from significant scum-hunting (and we already had a rocky start with the whole Name Your Heads debate that dominated the early pages). That’s very Anti-Town at best. And yet because Elli’s regularly plays in Anti-Town manner it is waved away. Had any of a number of other players in the game with a different playstyle (for example analytical) made the same move I guarantee the reaction would be much different. And that burns my ass. Because very Anti-Town move (with no positive Town upside) is bad regardless of who makes it.
[/rant off]

On the Issue of Town Reads

– I personally don’t see a huge upside to explicit Town reads but certainly don’t think they are inherently anti-Town or scummy. Chalk up my opinion to playstyle.

I just commented on random stuff I saw while catching up. If you want me to comment on anything specific, just tell me.

We want to comment on who is scum and why. The fact that you need to be told this I find frustrating at all levels.

Except playing a "very passive, reactionary game" is part of my meta, too. But we'll try to scumhunt more from now on. —Apple

You can’t fall back to ‘its my meta’ when you are hiding your identity. Sorry, no can do. Also what is Pro-Town about being passive and reactionary?

No, it doesn't necessarily correlate. However, if you're town, you tend to agree more often with other town members...correct? Seems like if you're agreeing with the scumbags, then you're doing it wrong.

I find this a slight over-simplication. There are a good number of players in this game that can appear convincingly Pro-Town as scumbags. So agree with people’s logic might have some Town read application but should be used sparingly IMO.

I do think any protective roles should target hydras that are the most pro-town/likely to die. I thought the whole argument you're making though is that if we reveal our names the Vet hydras are going to get picked off, which is what I think is not really correct. Am I missing something or did I read something wrong?

That’s not exactly what I was trying to say there. I think scum are going to pick of Hyrdas they find most troublesome for whatever reason (Pro-Town play, PR tells, whatever). My point is that IF there are players on the scum side who know that players on the Town side have their ‘number’ when scum THEN going full disclosure only gives the scum even fuller information by which to make their decisions. As said previously I’m not a huge Meta believer so I think the potential Town gain is less than the potential Scum gain. Then again it really is rapidly becoming a moot point.

How can Bowser post somewhere else?

In other threads. Was that really that hard of a leap of logic for you to make?

Because if I did that I'd be announcing to him that I was for a matter of fact Lateralus instead of someone who just noticed something weird. If I said "Hey bro tell me your life story" and only asked him questions that would be less efficient and just weird.

No it would haven’t been any less efficient in terms of outing Prof’s fake name-claim.

You haven't actually told me whether you like the questions or not, do you? Even if they weren't my main focus I know that they're generally helpful and I can even bring them up later in the game if needed. How do you not get this?

Do I like the questions? They at least helped center the early game debate away from the whole Name Claim storm. I think the question about meta has long term benefits when assessing arguments down the line. I clearly get it. What I don’t get is you framed the questions as a “Clever Tarp” for Prof and that doesn’t make sense.

You have to know that there was no way for Prof to continue to fake-claim the second you called him out. If Elli had persisted all you would have to do is make a response post and ‘accidently’ post from Lat and he was toast.

It's what I've learned from playing in newbie games an I intend to ask questions and answer later in every future game I play.

An IC doing that sort of thing in a Newbie game is far different than general players doing it in other games. An IC has teaching reasons to operate in that manner. You do not outside of Newbie. So strict adherence to a mechanic you learned in Newbie is rather foolish, IMO.

~The BlackSpy

[Crab Canon]

Unvote, Vote: bv311

[Mr Smith]

Unvote, Vote: bv311

[Crab Canon]

Now we're talking. I invite TnJ and FourTigers along.

Two more people after that to put him to L-1!

[bv311]

Ooh, bandwagons are fun! (The bowser one comes with free cake, I highly suggest it!)

Other than Bowser, this head does not much care for TJ and IceCream. But it still feels it's vote is in the best place.

[Crab Canon]

Good to see you're watching the thread and intentionally not posting in it. More lynching this scum please.

Chimaira - Even though it is an impossibility that Troll could be town in a game where I'm (VP) town, I'm going to continue to at least

believe

it's possible. Prove it to me by voting bv311. *bats eyelashes*

[FourTigers]

The reaction to Prof Paradox’s ‘fake-name gambit’ makes my blood boil. This is one of my biggest problems with the culture here on MS.

1. Prof Paradox (in Elli) makes a stupid fake-claim on a name. Regardless of the ‘reads’ expected to be drawn from it Elli’s other half clearly stated it was mainly for the lulz.
2. The fake-claim is expectedly unmasked.
3. Elli reveals he is the culprit.
4. Almost everyone basically waves it away as ‘Normal Elli and thus Null’

You fail the key behind something being a scum move. The question is not "would town do this?" as town is paranoid, skitzo and second guesses themselves. The question is "What advantage does scum get from doing this?" If there is nothing to be gained, it is not a scum move. Go back and look at any game, you will see multiple things scum did that helped them. Its about identifying and picking out those during the game. That move does nothing to help scum, so it is not a scumtell.

Had any of a number of other players in the game with a different playstyle (for example analytical) made the same move I guarantee the reaction would be much different. And that burns my ass. Because very Anti-Town move (with no positive Town upside) is bad regardless of who makes it.

No it wouldnt have. Still no scum motivation. Still not a scum tell.

My other head says they might need replacing.

I would vote bv without a second thought if needed at deadline given his continued inactivity and ignorance of the game. Also bv311 is RC and rudeboy. Pretty sure of that. I dont think anyone else would be doing something this pointless.

~The "Tiger" Part

[bv311]

Other head here. No time to add anything now.

Funny how fourtigers should want to easy-vote bv over suspects/scumhunting though, what with a week left before deadline.

[FourTigers]

Other head here. No time to add anything now.

Funny how fourtigers should want to easy-vote bv over suspects/scumhunting though, what with a week left before deadline.

You forgot that I was saying you should be lynched early on already?

You still are refusing to comment on the game, scumhunt, give opinions, etc. That is the epitome of a good deadline lynch/vig kill.

[bv311]

This head has not read the game yet. There is already quite a lot of content in this game as of page two, be patient.

[Crab Canon]

The fact of the matter is the fake-claim further derailed the thread from significant scum-hunting (and we already had a rocky start with the whole Name Your Heads debate that dominated the early pages). That’s very Anti-Town at best. And yet because Elli’s regularly plays in Anti-Town manner it is waved away. Had any of a number of other players in the game with a different playstyle (for example analytical) made the same move I guarantee the reaction would be much different. And that burns my ass. Because very Anti-Town move (with no positive Town upside) is bad regardless of who makes it.
[/rant off]

Most of this is quite disagreeable; see Furry who already elaborated on scum/town motivation. Actually the shenanigans didn't even really end up being all that distracting imo, and (untentionally?) caused much better a read on real Lateralus' hydra for me, which is a positive town upside.
But what's more interesting, what do YOU think about Professor Paradox?
So far you are repeatedly calling the action anti-town. You call lack of consistency that pro-identity-revealing hydras don't find it scummy, and then get markedly annoyed that others don't find it scummy. Plus you question TnJ's reaction.
But I can't find a single sentence stating your position on PP. Are they scummy to you or not?

I don't understand why Mastespy/Chimaira considered TnJ's "not answering own questions" as a (even if weak) scumtell. Even if they would have actually been very keen on the questions rather than mostly keen to force Elli to elaborate on the Lateralus claim, there's no particular town motivation in answering your own questions, it doesn't bring you anything you don't know yet. It might make you look more open, but that's tending to appearances. (It might also be more relevantly open later if you have something requiring actually commiting to real positions on other players lynch-worthiness etc. but these were RQS type self-referential stuff. Hardly binding, especially regards to order of answering.)

VP and I might not be completely on the same page with this but I also do believe TnJ's intention with the questions was to press on the Lateralus-fakeclaim and that he's probably not faking. Tom jumped straight to the questions upon confirming, a bit after Elli had fakeclaimed, and hung immediately on Elli's answer, ignoring all else. The timing and the timing of coming out makes sense to me, and I can relate to fishing for more fake-Lateralus even though I don't think this was necessarily a very efficient way to get it.

IceCream, what is the reason you are present in the thread but so far have not voted at all?

Other than Bowser, this head does not much care for TJ and IceCream.

Why? What's your read on Pineapple?

Funny how fourtigers should want to easy-vote bv over suspects/scumhunting though, what with a week left before deadline.

Uh, I haven't checkd his earlier she specifically said he would vote you at deadline and not now. Why do you pick on him and not the us/Smith who actually voted for you?

This head has not read the game yet. There is already quite a lot of content in this game as of page two, be patient.

Yeah no. Page 2 was

10 days

ago, patience should have gone to the trash a lot earlier than now, and you posted explicit approval of your other heads Bowser comments which referenced beyond page 2. You didn't really care what you were approving of did you.
MORE VOTES

Oj

[Crab Canon]

EBWOP to paragraph under my second bv311 quote, I cut something falsely in the middle of it:

Uh, ignoring previous suspicion he stated on you, he specifically said he would vote you at deadline rather than now. Why do you pick on him and not the us/Smith who actually voted for you?

[Crab Canon]

IceCream, what is the reason you are present in the thread but so far have not voted at all?

..and retracted, missed it in iso. Votes from before official end of confirmation stage have never counted though.

[Faranor]

The fact of the matter is the fake-claim further derailed the thread from significant scum-hunting (and we already had a rocky start with the whole Name Your Heads debate that dominated the early pages). That’s very Anti-Town at best. And yet because Elli’s regularly plays in Anti-Town manner it is waved away. Had any of a number of other players in the game with a different playstyle (for example analytical) made the same move I guarantee the reaction would be much different. And that burns my ass. Because very Anti-Town move (with no positive Town upside) is bad regardless of who makes it.

You seem upset.
Why haven't you responded to this?

Fara~ and I are going to get our shit together in our QT, after which we will begin to bring the pain. Stay tuned.

-~Norlax

[Faranor]

I'm v/la untill tuesday.

[Professor Paradox]

ICE CREAM
How do you think Bowser is posting somewhere else!?!?
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/search.p ... 4&sr=posts
^^^STILL IS BTW.
and I'm too lazy to look at the indi heads on top of that

[Professor Paradox]

The fact of the matter is the fake-claim further derailed the thread from significant scum-hunting (and we already had a rocky start with the whole Name Your Heads debate that dominated the early pages). That’s very Anti-Town at best.

SHOW ME THE DERAILING.
Right.
THERE WAS NONE.

[Chimaira]

@bv311, those aren't surprising people to suspect. I don't suppose you'd care to elaborate on the reasons why? And for the head that wasn't caught up yesterday how's that read coming?

@Crab Cannon, *titters like a schoolgirl* but what would our other heads say, Mister Vice President? The sad thing is that the impossiblity of my being town while you're also town means that you're probably not town this game but I'll go along with the hope that universal rules have been broken as it would be nice to work together and I like what you're doing so far.

Actually, based on those eyelashes you're batting I'd say that the bv311 is a real horrorshow idea. They're on my short list and Sotty7 is fine with it in the QT.

UNVOTE: Professor Paradox
VOTE: bv311

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Chimaira]

Okay so TnJ(Lat) post 240 explains the questions thing a lot better to me. I hadn't put the fake name + questions coming after together as a logical time line. Being out of touch in the game it didn't register, but the explanation works for me.

I don't understand why Mastespy/Chimaira considered TnJ's "not answering own questions" as a (even if weak) scumtell.

It's the whole thing about looking like your doing something when you're not. If someone doesn't appear to follow up on a question or a thought it always makes me wonder why they put it out there in the first place. However, in the case of TnJ, I made a mistake, not processing the fake name claim+questions combo. So there was a reasoning behind the thought process and I withdraw my previous complaint.

I'm happy enough to move onto bv311 and spoke with Troll briefly about it in the QT like he said. Weekends can be a bitch for me, so sorry for the short post. I'm still chewing though the thread and should be back in the land of the living come Monday.

-Sotty.

[Chimaira]

Mod: Could we get a prod on Pineapple please?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh