Fate wrote:2. You said yourself you've been IGNORING MINE AND BENMAGE'S POSTS, so how the fuck could you even KNOW your Bowser vote was better than all the content I've provided?
Well that's just patently wrong. I said I would ignore your posts until you two started scumhunting. I still look at every post you make, but when you start capslocking about how much you hate Ben I simply begin scrolling. Play better and I wouldn't have to. And I'm not trying to get in a bickering argument with you about who is doing more scumhunting. I'm simply saying that the conversations in this thread have been quite poor overall and I wanted you to point out what I'm apparently missing that is good (since you claim it is there). Perhaps I AM missing something good. I would like it pointed out to me, because I'm not seeing it right now. Third, your statement that I haven't commented on any posts is also patently false. My commenting has been on answering questions directly asked to me and things that I think are particularly noteworthy. The fact that I'm perpetually 10 pages behind here doesn't really make me inclined to post ginormous walls of text about the game state that far back. A lot could have changed and I'm a busy person that isn't going to waste my time. However, if I see something that stands out to me as needing to be talked about, I will say so. Once I'm fully caught up, then I can get more active in posting giant walls...though this game has more than enough for the remainder of its existence.
TL;DR
Feel free to point out your wonderful scumhunting and stop dodging.
Mom the other kids were chucking bricks at cars on the highway … what did you expect me to do not join in?
Oh man, we're playing car-brick and no-one told me?
rewq455 wrote:I can't believe that I am saying this, but I think letting the kill go through would be good for the town, even if Fate is town. This early in the game a confirmed non-cultist would be very beneficial to the town, as it is one less person that is possibly scum (yes I realize that was very repetitive). After that, I think we should put BenMage on Grave Robbing duty, which there is a limit to the number that you can do in one night, last game it was 2. If anything BenMage should be warded tonight to prevent the scum from killing our possible confirmed town.
Our of curiousity; do you think it'd be more beneficial to have a confirmed townie; or one less scum skill in the game? Because if we rez Fate tonight and the cult decides to cover for him by using their ritual to fake a murder, then instead of two dead townies, we have none. Seems to me like this would be the ideal outcome...
If you didn't ward, what did you do?
If Fate v. Benmage is town on town and we rez Benmage tonight so he cannot be killed by scum, if Benmage murders Fate, he is confirmed non-cultist. If the scum kill Fate tonight, the whole Benmage v. Fate thing is over, and and we and see about BenMage. Either way, town wins, and we use their kill to help the town if they kill Fate. I realize that this is really wierdly worded, but it is the best way I could explain it.
The man who smiles when things go wrong has thought of someone to blame it on.
Scum who smiles when scum is lynched just led the wagon.
rewq wrote:I can't believe that I am saying this, but I think letting the kill go through would be good for the town,
even if Fate is town.
This early in the game a confirmed non-cultist would be very beneficial to the town, as it is one less person that is possibly scum (yes I realize that was very repetitive). After that, I think we should put BenMage on Grave Robbing duty, which there is a limit to the number that you can do in one night, last game it was 2. If anything BenMage should be warded tonight to prevent the scum from killing our possible confirmed town.
No. NO.
YES YES. Would you rather have this town detrimental argument going on (even if it is town on town), or have one of them murder the other to confirm himself as a non-cultist? After that we can just have Benmage rob graves to make sure he does not go murderer.
AurorusVox wrote:
SpyreX wrote:... is this how this works?
According to SAII, that's how it works. The target receives different flavour depending on whether they're targeted by a murder or a ritual, and also is notified if they were resuscitated. Therefore if Fate is town and lives til tomorrow, he can tell us whether he was murdered or ritualised. If he's scum and lies, we can still check Benmage with the "Investigate" action N2 to see if he did in fact try to murder Fate (so long as he doesn't launder); and then we can prevent him from going murderer as others have suggested. The only place where this plan fails is if they're both scum.
I like this plan.
The man who smiles when things go wrong has thought of someone to blame it on.
Scum who smiles when scum is lynched just led the wagon.
SpyreX wrote:If that's how it works I'm fumbling through something but isn't there the potential to, sans failure, clear whole swaths of people?
You mean repeat the cycle of stalk-kill-res-investigate-clear on other players?
It's quite possible, that with enough planning, it could work to clear people as not-cult. But I'm not sure if we'd be able to stop all those people from going murderer; it works with one claimed stalker because we can keep tabs on them/make them graverob; but when you start to roll this out on multiple people, things are going to get complicated fast. Also, it only truly works on people who we are sure aren't cult together - such as Benmage/Fate - because if we try it on two cultists, they'll just clear each other.
The other spanner in the works is that we'll have to publicly announce the stalk/murder targets so that no one wards the stalker's target, or at the very least so that the resuscitation can take place. If the Cult have crafted a Fetish of the Stalker's claimed target, then they know they can kill the stalker's target and (potentially) frame the claimed stalker, unless we dedicate two, or even three resuscitates to the target. Then if they die from cult, you get into WIFOM where we assume a cult-flavoured death is a framed claimed stalker, when the actual claimed stalker really was cult all along, cult-killing their claimed stalker target. Then you get even more WIFOM when you consider that other players may have stalked, and later killed, the claimed stalker's target, or someone uses resuscitate on the resuscitator, in order to frame the resuscitator as not saving the claimed stalker's target. And then your head explodes.
tl;dr version:
It could work, but probably won't.
---
Ninja:
Hmm, can you expand on the idea of "groups of 2-3"? It might solve some of the problems above but I'm not sure I follow what you mean.
Also, if you're planning on having it all go down in the same night, you run the risk of Chaos (stalker, target and resuscitator will all get bloody).
[quote="VP Baltar"
TLDR
Feel free to point out your wonderful scumhunting and stop dodging.[/quote]
ITT: VP calls other people out who have been contributing consistently while the game began dodging in a post where he avoids posting real content for another day.
ABRIDGED FOR SCUMMERS ON THE GO:
LONG VERSION:
Look Baltar, I've been scum before. Its EASY as hell to have someone go: "here's something to comment on, what u think?" and you to say "i think XXX" INSTEAD OF producing new and fresh content and catching up on the game.
ISNT THAT RIGHT MR. LAWYER? EASIER TO TWIST AND SPIN INSTEAD OF COME UP WITH NEW AND INTERESTING VIEWPOINTS.
Fate is absurdly beautiful. 運命に弄ばれる
"Fate you keep alternating between narratives of doing it for fun and doing it for the sake of winning"
Fate wrote:Look Baltar, I've been scum before. Its EASY as hell to have someone go: "here's something to comment on, what u think?" and you to say "i think XXX" INSTEAD OF producing new and fresh content and catching up on the game.
ISNT THAT RIGHT MR. LAWYER? EASIER TO TWIST AND SPIN INSTEAD OF COME UP WITH NEW AND INTERESTING VIEWPOINTS.
I'm not asking you to give me ideas about what I should be looking at. I'm asking you because I'm demonstrating how devoid of useful points this thread is. I'm on page 24 atm and it took a large portion of the town that long to realize that furc is an investigator. Even that was only after Spyrex had to type out a giant wall explaining it. I mean, ffs, if you don't think this thread is filled with useless babble (which you have actively contributed to the entire time), then I pity you. As far as your capslock portion, I don't even understand what you're talking about. But it's loud!
Other cool things that people have spent a lot of useless words on:
Should ben follow through on his stalk? No.
Is furc a VI or what! Sure, sometimes
What does Percy's post mean regarding Furc? It shouldn't have even been talked about long enough for Percy to have to post.
^I certainly summed those up and it didn't take me 20+ pages to do it.
I don't know when the site got flooded with caps lock attention whores that follow through on nothing. It is annoying to read and it only results in a completely schizo town. Big fat meh on it. Town would be much better served by focusing on people who have acted scummy and pressuring them hard.
I will make suggestions:
xvart has been generally useless from what I've seen, has pursued terrible cases and is hiding behind charts to look pro-town.
AV is a general mess of backpedaling and "whoopsie daisy, don't attack me any more for that because I didn't mean what I said"
Bowser still sucks, though I can confirm that they have dropped their posting rate elsewhere
MoI pushed the Fur case to the point of irrationality until it essentially became obvious it wasn't going to happen.
Lost Butterfly is clusterfuck of confusion.
All of these people require ample questioning, but all I've been reading is Furc = stupid. Pardon my frustration with that. I'm still holding out hope that someone besides Spyrex starts making sense here soon. When I get fully caught up, you can rest assured that I'll hold your hand and point you in the right direction. K?
I am starting to reconsider my town reads on SpyreX and Fate, plus my scumread of AurorusVox.
I still want Benmage to try and kill Fate while somebody protects him. This way we can have a confirmed town robbing graves and robbing graves will confirm that they aren't going murderer.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. -Wayne Gretzky"
-Wickedestjr
hitogoroshi wrote:I haven't finished my Seacore v. Babyspice and Spyrex v. AV things yet - and likely won't for a few more hours - but I have something I need to say right away.
Bad: Scummy player selected to rob grave, scum get corpse dust and equipment if we're
right
for the cheap cost of one insanity.
Good: Two townies players rob grave, no one gets anything as long as we're right on one of the two, two insanities.
Great: Townie we're sure of robs grave. Cultists not only get nothing, they have to take an insanity on the chin or else we get equipment, one insanity.
The problem with "Great" is that it's terrible if we're wrong on the townie. Furcolow doesn't want to do it, so I guess the question is, is there anyone besides him we feel safe calling "town" and making our graverobber? If not, it's not a huge deal, we can just have two people bounce the grave.
---
I still don't want Benmage to go through with the murder. If he and Fate were both under intense suspicion, it might be worth it. But they're both pretty likely town. Risking the death of one pretty likely town (with losing a Rez kit being our BEST case scenario) just to make another pretty likely town a confirmed town? I don't buy it. It's not worth either losing a townie or blowing a protect just to get the equivalent of a single investigation on a likely town slot.
Makes sense. But this post gives me the willies. Bad willies.
It sounds like hito is fishing, trying to say "lets pick a really TOWN townie... wink wink ME derp"
But he doesn't actually SAY it outright, meaning he's waiting for somebody else to suggest that he do it.
Which is exactly what I thought when I read it:
- Why don't we just have you do it, Hito?
- OH WAIT. WHY DIDNT YOU JUST SUGGEST YOURSELF? HMMMM
- OMFG THIS MOFO MIGHT JUST BE REALLY SMART SCUM. sooo
Very Reluctant FoS (which will probably earn me a few tomatoes in the face): hitorogoshi
And now, of course, I MYSELF volunteer to be the one to rob the graves.
Serious enough at that stage.
Became more serious at 2nd posting.
Wicked and Reaper look very good, get strong town vibe off both, good points, level head.
Unimpressed by Fates "solution" to Benmage thing. WIll confirm Bentown by investigating him, but admits that most of town sees Bentown already? No sense is made here.
Agree with whoever said push on furc was probably scum generated.
Consider two oddest furc commentors to be Seacore (oddly insistent in spite of really solid furctown case) and Feysal (had huge wall post where Triglav could swear he was talking out of both sides of mouth at once, had to re-read to see if we could even understand what stance he was taking)
Mina/Faraday "oops, we cross-posted hydra lol" thing seems very honest and is, at worst, null as town/scum would never want to do that anyway. This head fully appreciates the foibles of dealing with hydra and is unimpressed by the heat for this aspect of their play.
That's all for now.
We are an amalgamation of Adel, Albert B. Rampage, Zorblag, and Ythan (twice).
We are, in absolute honesty, a conglomeration of gandalf, drmyshottyizsik, and MichaelSableheart.
We are currently operating as an omniscient culmination of Fate, Glork and ZazieR.
Triglav wrote:
Agree with whoever said push on furc was probably scum generated.
Consider two oddest furc commentors to be Seacore (oddly insistent in spite of really solid furctown case) and Feysal (had huge wall post where Triglav could swear he was talking out of both sides of mouth at once, had to re-read to see if we could even understand what stance he was taking)
See that's the thing that makes me wonder about Seacore. Surely, by the point where Seacore is basically pushing the cart alone (#445 or so), his scum-team would have been telling him to back off, right? The lack of wiggle-room he's given himself really makes him sound more like tunnelled town to me. Furcolow manages to give it a bit more momentum through aggressive rage-flail, but there's no obvious scummy support at that point; so I can't see it as part of a co-ordinated plan. If he's scum, the time-zone difference must be playing havoc with their ability to co-ordinate a plan.
Re: Feysal's post - are you talking about #504 or #539? I'm not sure I can see the logical inconsistency you're talking about. His position on Furcolow is that the mistake is such an unlikely cult gambit that it virtually confirms his townieness, even if it is logically possible he's scum, right? Where's the red flag?
AurorusVox #747 wrote:The target receives different flavour depending on whether they're targeted by a murder or a ritual, and also is notified if they were resuscitated.
I double checked this from the SAII rules, but I don't see it in the current rules. I guess I'll need to ask for confirmation.
@MOD: Does the target of a failed kill still receive notification whether he was targeted by Murder or the Ritual? Will he know if he was targeted by both? (Provided of course that he survives.)
Wickedestjr #749 wrote:This reasoning can apply to any player. I think we should have one person rez Fate because we know that Benmage is going to attack him if he isn't cult.
Wickedestjr #761 wrote:SSBF and Feysal, are you guys saying that we need to have multiple people protecting Fate so that he can tell us if Benmage tried to murder him? If that is the case, then keep in mind that the person rezzing Fate also becomes bloody, so the person rezzing Fate would also know that Fate was attacked. Am I still missing/forgetting something?
I guess I was saying that, but you have an excellent point in your first quote above. The only reason we're discussing protecting Fate out of all the players who claimed noise is because Benmage claimed to have stalked him. One res kit is enough to deal with that, and we can't even be certain if there is a fetish of Fate.
If the cult can kill Fate and decides to try it, we'd need three res kits to be certain that Fate lives through the night. One for Benmage, two for greater ritual. That is a high price to pay for confirming Benmage. What's even more annoying, if three players pledge to protect Fate, the cult will know not to even try to kill him, and two of those kits will be wasted. If there is only one player protecting Fate, the cult might kill him, thus denying us the confirmation we want.
The blood on the resuscitator unfortunately tells us nothing. Suppose Fate is dead tomorrow, having been killed in the Ritual. If only one player claimed to have used a res kit, this would be meaningless. Benmage might as well have been one of the cultists participating in the Ritual, and got himself bloody that way, or the cult might be trying to frame him. The one player claiming to have used a res kit could be cult or a murderer-in-training, using the chance to earn some pro-town points (not intended as suspicion of SSBF, I'm speaking hypothetically). Even if the one resuscitator was trustworthy, he would not know what type of attack he protected Fate from - was it a Murder, or half of the Greater Ritual?
If two players claimed to have protected Fate and he still died, that would still not confirm Benmage. It would appear as though Benmage had to have used Murder, otherwise the Ritual could not have overcome the protections, but either of the two protectors could still be fellow cult, trying to give Benmage an alibi.
The bottom line is, we can't confirm Benmage unless Fate survives, and to be certain that Fate survives we'd need to use three res kits. We need Fate alive to tell us whether he was targeted by Murder, provided he really can tell. And even then, Fate could be cult and lie (again, speaking hypothetically), so even this would not absolutely prove Benmage as town. I don't find the price of three res kits acceptable. I suppose the best policy would be that only one player openly pledges to protect Fate, and everyone else with a res kit can decide for themselves what to do with it. That should leave the cult in doubt, since they won't know how vulnerable Fate is going to be, and they might not even have a fetish of him yet. Either that, or we give up on the idea of confirming Benmage, and try to talk him out of going for the kill.
Furcolow is town.
Ben and fate are both likely enough town that risking resources, actions, and potential deaths to clear one is silly.
Ben should not follow through with the stalk.
--
Makes sense. But this post gives me the willies. Bad willies.
It sounds like hito is fishing, trying to say "lets pick a really TOWN townie... wink wink ME derp"
But he doesn't actually SAY it outright, meaning he's waiting for somebody else to suggest that he do it.
This is mostly accurate, sans the "wink wink...me" part. If I'm the one forwarding the plan that we find a really townie townie to grave rob, then obviously I can't suggest
anyone
, unless they are absolutely confirmed. Hence, furcolow. When he refused it (and no hard feelings, I can see why you wouldn't want to) I was left with a really good plan but it would simply be unfair for the town to take my plan AND my suggested candidate on faith. That's why I didn't suggest myself - because it would have been too much for everyone to take on good intentions, and then the plan itself would be unfairly impugned.
So yes, I was fishing for a volunteer, but I don't care whether it's me or one of my town reads. I have no problem with you grave robbing, RC. You're a brofessional, after all.
---
In the case of Seacore v. Baby Spice:
Seacore hasn't gotten better since my initial vote. He's spent literally the entire game switching between tunneling Benmage and tunneling Furcolow. Not only that, but he's not even tunneling them for scumreads. Regarding Ben, he says that he'd be a good lynch just for being anti-town. And regarding Furcolow, he focuses exclusviely on his belief that Furcolow is mod-confirmed scum. In both cases, he posts as little opinion as possible. He's given virtually no reads and no input on the rest of the players and events in this game.
Baby Spice is actually pretty similar. Lots of tunneling on Furcolow for the belief that he's mod-confirmed scum. Very little interaction with the rest of the players in the thread.
Both pretty equivalent in terms of lack-of-anything, but I have to give the vote to Baby Spice because she still is voting Furcolow (???). Both of you, we're looking for scum, not just people you can accuse for objective reasons without giving your thoughts on anything.
UNVOTE: Seacore VOTE: Baby Spice
---
Honestly, Spyrex, I'm not seeing your suspicion on AV. I'm getting a bad Caught In the Crossfire flashback here. That being said, you look pretty solidly town right now. In your next post, please either switch your vote from AV or really, really sell me the idea AV is scum.
---
I'm gathering some of the disparate information in this thread for secret hito reasons. If anyone has time, I'd appreciate people going in my spoiler-blocks and fact checking my info/give feedback on my thoughts. If you don't find anything wrong, bad, or missing, let me know that too.
Spoiler: Players who Could Potentially Die Tonight
Whether or not you heard noise
Whether or not you warded, and if so, who?
If you
successfully
Resuscitated (as in, the target died and you brought them back), and if so, who
Whether or not you gained insanities, and if so, what you chose
"Don’t buy a dozen eggs if you just want a hardboiled egg. Don’t buy a head of lettuce if you just want a salad. Don’t buy eggs and lettuce if you want egg salad because those are not the right ingredients." -Julius Bloop
Totallymafia wrote:Yeah, 26 pages in like 2 days, and 2 weekdays at that, i don't know about everyone else but so far I've been forced to mainly skim to stay on top of things, the main reason I picked up on your thing was that you mentioned my name.
Why didn't you mention this until now? I'm still finding this all hard to believe.
You asked me why I didn't have many reads, so I explained.
Wicked wrote:
Totallymafia wrote:There's a difference, that list will actually benefit town, so while it's possible that xvart may be cult trying to look town by doing it, it's just as likely he is town genuinely trying to help out, so basically it's a null tell. However, if it was the only thing he was posting...
Let me highlight the difference:
- Person A berates the town for poor activity, saying it will hurt their chances
- Person B berates the town for poor activity, saying it will hurt their chances, while not actually contributing anything themself
While both could be opportunistic scum, it can be seen that Person B is more likely to not be genuine about helping the town.
So, are you saying that I wasn't contributing anything?
No, of course not, that was just an example of the difference between a player doing townie things, which is a null tell, and a player doing townie things when they are unecessary or not genuine, which is scummy.
Wicked wrote:
totallymafia wrote:And he wants to hear more from somebody who he hasn't even read their posts yet? That doesn't make sense!
Oh... my... gosh... You don't pay attention, do you? I agree that that doesn't make sense... but I'm saying that I made the comment because they were players I didn't have any read on yet. Tell me, why would I said I wanted to hear more from you if I hadn't even read your posts? What exactly is the scum motivation for saying that? I think it is obvious that I made the comment because I didn't have reads on the players I listed.
Calm down and read the whole paragraph with that sentence again, the sentence is a part of my thought process which I put in quotation marks, it was my thought process when I first read that part in your first post.
Wicked wrote:I still want Benmage to try and kill Fate while somebody protects him. This way we can have a confirmed town robbing graves and robbing graves will confirm that they aren't going murderer.
Why do you think that robbing graves means they aren't going murderer? I actually think it would be a good strategy for a murderer, as they can just use that as an excuse for having heaps of insanities.
Which makes me a bit suspicious of ReaperCharlie offering to take the position of grave robber (I kinda like what he said about hito, but it could have just been an opportunistic way to put himself forward as grave robber), I've been thinking he's town but this makes me think he might be going the murderer route, especially coupled with one of his early posts where he felt he needed to say he searched for a resuscitation kit when asked if he warded, rather than just saying no.
I'm thinking RC should prove he has a rez kit by being the one to rez Fate tonight.
SpyreX wrote:Follow me here because I have to be missing something:
Pick 6-7 people to stalk within groups of 2-3 (to prevent wards). Everyone else gets rez kits.
The next night they all take their shots on rez'd targets.
Assuming no one goes murderer, which would be a BAD idea if it went that way, the next day we should have 5-6 at minimum town.
This is basically what we want to do to confirm BM, so why are you for this but against BM being confirmed in the same way?
Anyone who stalked last night should just come out and admit it. You have buckley's chance of winning as murderer basically, but if you come out now all will be forgiven and we can rez your target tonight so you get to be confirmed town, and your chances of winning go up by like a gazillion percent.
Wicked wrote:I still want Benmage to try and kill Fate while somebody protects him. This way we can have a confirmed town robbing graves and robbing graves will confirm that they aren't going murderer.
Why do you think that robbing graves means they aren't going murderer? I actually think it would be a good strategy for a murderer, as they can just use that as an excuse for having heaps of insanities.
Which makes me a bit suspicious of ReaperCharlie offering to take the position of grave robber (I kinda like what he said about hito, but it could have just been an opportunistic way to put himself forward as grave robber), I've been thinking he's town but this makes me think he might be going the murderer route, especially coupled with one of his early posts where he felt he needed to say he searched for a resuscitation kit when asked if he warded, rather than just saying no.
I'm thinking RC should prove he has a rez kit by being the one to rez Fate tonight.
I agree with RC using the Rez kit, however the Murderer is a solo win role, so there would be no one covering for their robs, and you can do 2 free actions per night, and the graverob alignments are publicly announced, so there would be 2 robs a night by the robber, making it impossible to:
A. Achieve the win condition or
B. Go murderer
The murderer would not be able to hide insanities when grave robbing, as they would not have any night actions to stalk/kill to get other insanities with. That is why I am for Fate getting (attempted) murdered by BenMage and then being assigned grave robber after that.
The man who smiles when things go wrong has thought of someone to blame it on.
Scum who smiles when scum is lynched just led the wagon.
Wicked wrote:I still want Benmage to try and kill Fate while somebody protects him. This way we can have a confirmed town robbing graves and robbing graves will confirm that they aren't going murderer.
Why do you think that robbing graves means they aren't going murderer? I actually think it would be a good strategy for a murderer, as they can just use that as an excuse for having heaps of insanities.
Which makes me a bit suspicious of ReaperCharlie offering to take the position of grave robber (I kinda like what he said about hito, but it could have just been an opportunistic way to put himself forward as grave robber), I've been thinking he's town but this makes me think he might be going the murderer route, especially coupled with one of his early posts where he felt he needed to say he searched for a resuscitation kit when asked if he warded, rather than just saying no.
I'm thinking RC should prove he has a rez kit by being the one to rez Fate tonight.
I agree with RC using the Rez kit, however the Murderer is a solo win role, so there would be no one covering for their robs, and you can do 2 free actions per night, and the graverob alignments are publicly announced, so there would be 2 robs a night by the robber, making it impossible to:
A. Achieve the win condition or
B. Go murderer
The murderer would not be able to hide insanities when grave robbing, as they would not have any night actions to stalk/kill to get other insanities with. That is why I am for Fate getting (attempted) murdered by BenMage and then being assigned grave robber after that.
I'm not sure I understand you, but are you basically saying the grave robber will rob two graves each night and thus have no room for other night actions? (not sure how you're so certain there will be more than one death each night) My understanding of the rules is that you can only rob one grave each night, and the free action from robbing a grave is for any other action, allowing somebody to rob grave each night and still go about their murdering business, I'll check though:
@MOD: I'm assuming the free action from rob grave is to be used on any other night action, ie you can only rob one grave each night?
