Stars Aligned III - The Tenth Day

[Fate]

L_B I should probably respond to you, but Its way too early here and I've since changed my read on you temporarily.

You said something like "we never defended ourselves" but that's just semantics. Sure you never said EXACTLY "WE ARENT SCUM WHY WOULD WE DO THIS?" but saying "Where's the scum motivation in this?" ENCOURAGES people to look for it, find none, and drop their suspicion of you. ITs a defense in its own way, and has been noted.

That said there are FAR better targets today,

AND TODAY DOESN'T END WITHOUT CONTENT FROM BOWSER. HIM POSTING ELSEWHERE FURTHERS THIS NOTION.THE BEST WAY TO DO THAT IS THREAT OF ROPE. MOVE OVER NOW TOWNIES.

[ReaperCharlie]

So who's town and who's scum if Seacore flips cult and you get killed tonight, Fate?

Just for the record, since you seem pretty sure you're gonna die anyway?

[Lost Butterfly]

Fate: I could REALLY argue semantics by saying that I'd left it open for them to

find

a scum motivation if I actually am scum...but I kind of see your point that it's a

quasi

-defence. I still think there's nothing wrong with "defending" the contradiction when people are calling it scummy.

Oh, why not?

VOTE: Bowser

But the irony is that I saw these posts after hitting Preview...when I'd finished writing an

actual

defence. But in my...um, defence (please don't shoot me), these are responses to actual questions directed at my slot:

============================================================

Just noticed that I completely missed everything that happened on the bottom of Page 33. (That was Faraday posting for a stretch.) I have to admit, both VP Baltar and xvart come across as significantly better here--Baltar in particular. Much of my frustration before was because I'd thought Baltar had just left a lazy vote on us for "making excuses for our contradiction" and disappeared.

@xvart: I'm too tired to go through a quote-by-quote rebuttal of your answers to my "leading" questions, but I'll just repeat what I did to Fate: my point wasn't to lead people but to emphasize that you should look at motivations. And to be entirely honest, I got a bit carried away with listing

all

the potential questions I might ask if I were trying to read Lost Butterfly from an outside POV. Maybe it came across as condescending.

So, you're saying I should just take your word for it? Especially after both of you saw how Macavity Lock and I used a fabricated disagreement in aCoK to build momentum as we needed? I'm sorry if I'm slightly skeptical. I went back to reread the post game of aCoK to see if I could catch either of you commenting on that, but I don't think either of you did directly. So let me ask you now, you don't see how it could be perceived as scummy for a hydra to pull a complete 180 on previous statements simply because 'people aren't going to agree 100% of the time'? Having seen me do it as a scum hydra in that game, do you think it's an ineffective tool for the scum to use?

My thoughts at the time actually were that you were being a bit hard-line on the issue, and it depended on the context, but I didn't feel that strongly either way.

I also remember that you'd said in postgame that a hydra that contradicts itself should lynched. In fact, I referenced that quote when unvoting, because I

knew

you'd give us heat for this. So you know, this would be possibly the worst game ever in which to try this stunt.

I absolutely see why it might be perceived as scummy for a hydra to 180 on itself...when it's to further a scum agenda. It was an effective tool in one unusual strategic situation in which you ABSOLUTELY HAD to keep the player that MacavityLock had claimed to suspect alive.

But in this case, it would mean sacrificing our town cred and looking like bickering flip-floppers for a convoluted plan to make one potential D1 mislynch out of twenty-one infinitesimally more viable. Not worth the hassle.

So yes, it's perfectly fair to hold a hydra accountable for a contradiction. I just think it depends on the motivation behind the contradiction, since it's overly idealistic to expect two people to consistently see eye-to-eye on twenty-seven different players. I mean...much of what makes a single player flip-flopping scummy isn't that it's opportunistic, but that it isn't the thought process of someone who is voting for the person he genuinely thinks is scum. That doesn't apply to a hydra.

@LB - do you really feel that there was no shifting momentum toward Furcolow at that time when he shifted to the leading wagon within the next few pages after your vote? I think Faraday was egging him on in his responses and that led to a lot of votes on him at a crucial time. I'm going to read over the entire exchange again, but that's how I felt on my initial read.

I'd say the reason for the shifting momentum was the same reason I put my defence of Furcolow in italics with a disclaimer of "Oh, shit, I really feel he's town, but that looks bad," and Faraday voted him in the first place. Because Percy stated that a player who wasn't in the game couldn't be targeted with a ward, and that sounded like a contradiction. IIRC, a couple of players were swayed by the Faraday-half of Lost Butterfly's arguments. I really can't remember if the bandwagon was still viable when I unvoted.

But to be honest, I don't really feel like rereading our own posts to see if our votes could be coincidentally construed as opportunistic. I think we've both been very genuine in our interactions with Furcolow. If you notice anything you find scummy, point it out, and Faraday and I can clarify our motivations.

[Trilobite]

Middle of the night, caught up to page 29/Ojanen head. Powered by Bela Bartok.

Before we get to that, I did skim a bit of the last page and LOLHAI such lies are too much to bear so

Trilobite-
Isn't Ojanen that guy I nailed as scum in Gods and Men D1? LOLHAI DER.

1. Ojanen is a girl.
2. Ojanen has never played with Fate or in Gods and Men.
3. Ojanen categorically never gets "nailed" as scum by cases. Fact.
----

Furcolow - 6 (

MagnaofIllusion

, kunkstar7, xvart, Baby Spice, Lost Butterfly, Seacore, Super Smash Bros. Fan)
saving this. Decent place for some cult.

SSBF 491 - You hate Benmage's play (agree) and find the vendetta scummy (disagree).
You were in that fiasco of an /in-vitational where Benmage (town) et al were trying to policy lynch Fate D1.
Why do you not take this (and the fact that if cult Benmage could never follow up on his tunneling) into account?
Why does Fate's reaction resemble his town reaction there and Benmage's not?
The initial Furc vote is awful but what I'd want to know is regards the change of mind page 25

As much as I want to lynch Furcolow due to his scummy behavior, the ward evidences pointed out by AurorusVox/The Lost Butterfly/Trilobite are too damning to ignore, which points to him being town. Although I'll be watching him extremely closely, based off what have happened regarding the claims, Furcolow is not a viable lynch candidate today.

Can you look at the isos and state me which post numbers exactly convinced you? Need this for some timing reference.

clear-ish townlist at this point furc, benmage, hito, fate, spyrex, maybe Plum, maybe lost butterfly (Mina posts like town; Faraday muddles it.)

I can't get over how people are still not getting that Furc is investigator and that Furc warded

in the late twenties

and how it's still such a talking point and my notes are dominated by exclamations of this. Although the position is sufficiently ridiculous that I'd guess max 1-2 of them are incompetent cult not realizing this is not going through and is making them look bad.

I think you're more likely town than scum. I think Benmage is town. But I want to know why SpyreX is so sure you're both town that he's prepared to give Benmage an out on killing you.

Oh yeah, why would you try to prevent town from killing likely town. Um, what?

*sigh* Everytime I think I've figured out the Furcolow situation, a better argument gets brought up. Specifically, AurorusVox and Ojanen both bring up a good argument pointing towards Furcolow is town, but I also need to consider Baby Spice's argument. *thinking*

There's nothing to think by that time. Squirming on a sure investigator? Ends up voting Baby Spice at the end of the post for another argument but doesn't clarify any position or result of the *thinking* on furc.

10 pages behind still argh. Tomorrow.

[AurorusVox]

Additionally AV what's the deal with "I was totally the first to say Fur was town" being absolutely full of lies?

There's a difference between SAYING someone is town, and logically ARGUING that someone is town. VP was calling me out for being late to call Furc town, which I found ironic considering he was praising you for arguing that Furc was town, when in fact you were the one that SAID he was town and I was the one that ARGUED it logically (proof of this: MoI explicitly only unvoted due to my explanation). He also praised you for being the one to bring up the non-ambiguous thing, which I had already done previously; if he's calling me scum, and calling you town for doing something that I also did, well, that needed addressing.

---

AurousVox-
Holy fuckING HELL I JUST CTRL+SEACORE AND THE SECOND PAGE OF HIS ISO

DOESN'T MENTION SEACORE ONCE

<- THIS IS THE COMPANY YOU HAVE ON THIS BULLSHIT WAGON. No seriously his ISO mentions Seacore

THREE FUCKING TIMES

-SCUM

So, I've spent the last few days dealing with the setup and trying to figure out the Benmage/Fate thing to result in OPTIMUM WIN (doomed to failure), looking at some other players as they posted and defending/explaining myself to SpyreX (and others). So why haven't I mentioned Seacore? Well...

-His reluctance to vote Benmage despite thinking he's going to be a danger to the town caught my attention; and yet he's never once expressed an interest in seeing Benmage clear himself as town at night
-His vote for Furc came after the Percypost which could be opportunistic scum.

His response was: "I wanted other people's opinions," and "I'm unvoting Furc." Not really that compelling. Since then, he asked the mod a question, and the next time he posted was not until last night (he's been V/LA). The next time I logged in after his post, I was on for about half an hour and I didn't really want to start getting into them since I was preparing to go to bed; so I just responded to what was directed at me (Feysal, Benmage) and logged out.

The problem with ISO is that you lose all of this extra context. Y'know, like, Seacore wasn't posting, like I was doing other things at the time. Hey, Fate, what do you make of Andy?

---

As for Seacore's recent posts (irony)

My inclination has been to just assume LB and BS are investigators, but I've realised that's because most of the people who accused them accused me, and I KNOW that they were wrong about the latter. But I'm going to go back and look at them in ISO.

He "assumed" people were town because the people who were accusing them were...accusing him? Riiight. If you're going to dispense town reads you should probably do more than just assume. If when you ISO them, they defended you, can you explain whether you think FYPOV its good defending (town on town) or bad defending (scum on town).

It seems

the majority of people

are demanding a cult targeted lynch rather than a general scummy one (i.e. Not going after a potential murderer) so I'll leave off the Benmage thing for now.

Which would

you

rather see: a cult or potential murderer swing? And why?

Absolutely. If I was in your position, based on Fate's post alone, I would definitely be suspicious of him and I.

Fate

- Seacore seems to think that your potential slip should be read by the majority of people as a definite slip. What do you make of that?

Seacore

- what town/scum motivation do you think that post served?

Since then, people have mentioned that Benmage can be thoroughly examined and attacked in later Days, and this satisfies me.

^A lie. This was mentioned pretty much from the very start, before Benmage claimed stalk. Can you explain this?

I attacked Furc because, to me, it seems he's been caught out on a lie. I find it hard to believe that Percy would not have at least clarified why El Gooski got the target. [...] furc has likely lied.

Seacore, did you see any of the arguments suggesting that (a) Furc had to Ward, or (b) the message would be considered unambiguous? I'm not sure how you can still think he's lying. In this crazy world, do you think it's more likely that he Stalked, or Crafted a Fetish?

Your list of certain scum? Please wait until I'm lynched and revealed as somebody with 0 insanity points before you answer that.

The whole zero insanity thing seems like he wants to cause confusion D2, where we think he's town but he's actually scum. So we spend D2 operating under false assumptions and give his buddies a bit of breathing room.

I just feel there's evidence heavily suggesting that you have lied about your night action, whether you have lied about your action, target or both

Could you expand on this "heavy evidence"? Also, don't you think lying about the target would be very risky: what if El G hadn't heard noise? Unless you think El G is scum?

Placing a vote on him just feels too easy.

You've not voted for most of the game. Surely an easy vote is better than no vote?

---

El G

How about instead of asking for a summary, you actually read the thread like everyone else, and then do something useful with your vote rather than passing off blindly sheeping onto a popular bandwagon as "I don't like yellow"? I find it hard to believe that THREE of you can't keep up with a thread, when individual players are miraculously managing it.

[Seacore]

Plenty of willful misunderstanding here by AV, lets break it down.

As for Seacore's recent posts (irony)

My inclination has been to just assume LB and BS are investigators, but I've realised that's because most of the people who accused them accused me, and I KNOW that they were wrong about the latter. But I'm going to go back and look at them in ISO.

He "assumed" people were town because the people who were accusing them were...accusing him? Riiight. If you're going to dispense town reads you should probably do more than just assume. If when you ISO them, they defended you, can you explain whether you think FYPOV its good defending (town on town) or bad defending (scum on town).

I was admitting that I had some potentially bad subconscious reads, and now that I was back from v/la I was planning on re-examining them. I was certainly not trying to convince anybody they were town.

It seems

the majority of people

are demanding a cult targeted lynch rather than a general scummy one (i.e. Not going after a potential murderer) so I'll leave off the Benmage thing for now.

Which would

you

rather see: a cult or potential murderer swing? And why?

Absolutely. If I was in your position, based on Fate's post alone, I would definitely be suspicious of him and I.

Fate

- Seacore seems to think that your potential slip should be read by the majority of people as a definite slip. What do you make of that?

Seacore

- what town/scum motivation do you think that post served?

Since then, people have mentioned that Benmage can be thoroughly examined and attacked in later Days, and this satisfies me.

^A lie. This was mentioned pretty much from the very start, before Benmage claimed stalk. Can you explain this?

I attacked Furc because, to me, it seems he's been caught out on a lie. I find it hard to believe that Percy would not have at least clarified why El Gooski got the target. [...] furc has likely lied.

Seacore, did you see any of the arguments suggesting that (a) Furc had to Ward, or (b) the message would be considered unambiguous? I'm not sure how you can still think he's lying. In this crazy world, do you think it's more likely that he Stalked, or Crafted a Fetish?

I don't know what he's done, I just saw a lie and went "scum". Again, I'm hardly pushing for it anymore, I'm just pointing out that he did something dodgy.

Your list of certain scum? Please wait until I'm lynched and revealed as somebody with 0 insanity points before you answer that.

The whole zero insanity thing seems like he wants to cause confusion D2, where we think he's town but he's actually scum. So we spend D2 operating under false assumptions and give his buddies a bit of breathing room.

Um, you'll almost certainly graverob me and find out my actual role on the morning of D2, so I don't know where this confusion will come from.

I just feel there's evidence heavily suggesting that you have lied about your night action, whether you have lied about your action, target or both

Could you expand on this "heavy evidence"? Also, don't you think lying about the target would be very risky: what if El G hadn't heard noise? Unless you think El G is scum?

For god sake, I've been through this a few times. In my opinion, Percy's post about what he would and would not have clarified does not match up with Furc's claims. You and others don't agree. Fine. Let's move on.

Placing a vote on him just feels too easy.

You've not voted for most of the game. Surely an easy vote is better than no vote?

Yeah, because that's what I need to do while I'm no1 wagon, I need to throw a weak bandwagon vote prior to actually doing some heavy reading. No, I think I'll hold off until I do my reads.

[Seacore]

Oops, missed some.

It seems

the majority of people

are demanding a cult targeted lynch rather than a general scummy one (i.e. Not going after a potential murderer) so I'll leave off the Benmage thing for now.

Which would

you

rather see: a cult or potential murderer swing? And why?

To be honest, I'd be happy either way. I suppose it might feel more concrete to go after a cult member, especially since you get an unambiguous flip from a graverob, but each potential murderer we kill decreases the NKs by one.

Absolutely. If I was in your position, based on Fate's post alone, I would definitely be suspicious of him and I.

Fate

- Seacore seems to think that your potential slip should be read by the majority of people as a definite slip. What do you make of that?

Seacore

- what town/scum motivation do you think that post served?

Well that's a misread of my statement. I said suspicion not "definite slip". The reason for my post was that I made a previous one, under the incorrect assumption that Fate had quoted me in his "slip post". If he had indeed quoted me, that should have been evidence enough that he knew full well what site he was posting on. However I misremembered and was instead clearing it up, lest I be called a liar.

Since then, people have mentioned that Benmage can be thoroughly examined and attacked in later Days, and this satisfies me.

^A lie. This was mentioned pretty much from the very start, before Benmage claimed stalk. Can you explain this?

Not a lie. I saw a lot of anti-town behaviour and attacked. I was very worried with people who were willing to give Benmage a free pass on his (potentially) first of three murders, simply because he announced that he did it for a non PTW reason. I was later convinced the level of scrutiny Benmage was under would be sufficient protection.

I see a lot of reaching here. AV is creeping upwards in my scum reads, but now I'll stop defending myself and start reading.

[Percy]

No small text, everyone. I noticed some people using it on a read through, and I'm giving you all your only warning!

[Seacore]

People I've found scummy -

Andrius - Lots of wall posts, with very little to say. Comments on other people's comments and complains about the amount of crap posting.

AurorusVox - The afore mentioned reaching in the case on me. I'm also a bit unsure about the various plans, there seems to be some obvious misreads of the rules, and I can't tell whether this is deliberate.

Bowser - The lurking that others have spoken of.

Plum - Since she landed on me, seems to be content to be unsatisfied with my questions, and hold vague guilt over those who have been associated with me.

And there's still my obvious concern with Benmage and Furc.

In regards to LB and BS, LB is playing how I've seen town Mina and Faraday play. I've seen them both scum and they're not ringing those bells, although it could be that they're helping each other with that. And I can't see anything in BS's ISO that makes me think scum.

[Furpants_Tom]

I think you're more likely town than scum. I think Benmage is town. But I want to know why SpyreX is so sure you're both town that he's prepared to give Benmage an out on killing you.

Oh yeah, why would you try to prevent town from killing likely town. Um, what?

This is wilful misunderstanding on your part. I'm asking why SpyreX is so sure they're both town. And he goes on to give me a decent answer, which I think was of benefit to the town.

[AurorusVox]

I was admitting that I had some potentially bad subconscious reads, and now that I was back from v/la I was planning on re-examining them. I was certainly not trying to convince anybody they were town.

So that was you simply saying that you hadn't thought to look at them closer because the same person was attacking you? You didn't mention that this was a subconscious thing, and so I thought it was an active interpretation of their play.

I don't know what he's done, I just saw a lie and went "scum". Again, I'm hardly pushing for it anymore, I'm just pointing out that he did something dodgy.

Nice swerve. I asked you if you'd seen the arguments that said he wasn't lying. Have you?

Um, you'll almost certainly graverob me and find out my actual role on the morning of D2, so I don't know where this confusion will come from.

That is very true. I had thought we would be graverobbing you N2, I don't know why. I keep getting my numbers mixed up (I'm no mathematician). I retract that accusation.

For god sake, I've been through this a few times. In my opinion, Percy's post about what he would and would not have clarified does not match up with Furc's claims. You and others don't agree. Fine. Let's move on.

Oh so you've seen the arguments about non-ambiguity. But what about the argument that logically, it makes no sense that Furc would lie about having Warded and say he heard no noise? You say let's move on, but you're

not

moving on, because you're

continuing

to use an illogical reason to maintain calling someone scummy. And that is going to affect your reads for the rest of the day, which isn't helpful in the slightest. Once you've accepted that Furc isn't lying, you can't use "FurcScum" as an excuse to not look at his scum picks more closely.

Yeah, because that's what I need to do while I'm no1 wagon, I need to throw a weak bandwagon vote prior to actually doing some heavy reading. No, I think I'll hold off until I do my reads.

Do you think Bowser needs to post more, and do you think he would be prompted to post more if he had the pressure of a vote on him?

---

AurorusVox - The afore mentioned reaching in the case on me. I'm also a bit unsure about the various plans, there seems to be some obvious misreads of the rules, and I can't tell whether this is deliberate.

Well, I don't think I've been reaching, purposefully or otherwise. One of the points was mistaken, but fmpov you've misunderstood the rest (or maybe we just disagree about them)

And are you honestly suggesting that I'd spend all that effort trying to make a plan watertight to prevent it being defeated by scum - which, incidentally, if I'm scum, would prevent MY TEAM from defeating it? Because y'know, pointing out the flaws in plans and trying to fix them really helps when your aim is to exploit the flaws in plans.

Anyway, if you are suggesting that, then there are two rules that essentially destroyed my plans (all other rules that interfered with it could be worked around);
(1) I thought that you received flavour on being attacked, even if you survived
- this was supported by the fact that in SA II you receive messages when being attacked. It seems logical to assume that you would not receive a message saying "You are drenched in blood, and bear the mental scars of your near-death experience" without first receiving the message containing these near-death experiences.

(2) The rule about "cult getting bloody from participating in the ritual if no murder took place"
- Whilst grammatically speaking, "they" never refers to a single person (i.e. the target - the correct term would be he/she) many people use "they" as a shortcut when the person's gender is unknown. I figured that the target would get bloody from being attacked, and that the cult wouldn't because they send the unspeakable being out, i.e. they don't get near the killing itself, which made it seem that this rule (though grammatically incorrect) referred to the target. However, I actually questioned the mod on this, sooo you can't say I wilfully misread it

[El Goosuki]

Guys we need to lynch someone, we're at 39 pages. I don't like the Seacore wagon.

I'll be pleased to lynch anyone else FAST and with little discussion.

-DGB

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

@Mod: I am so sorry to do this, but please replace me out of this game. As much as I would like to stay in this game, I cannot do so any longer. I've gotten way too addicted to this site and it's tearing down my grades in school, something that I feared would happen to me eventually. Plus being in two games at one time was a huge mistake for me as it required me to spend even more time on the computer. I'm that type of person who spends more time reading then posting and because of that, I spend way too much time on this game and I'm paying for it.

I will search out a replacement for myself to ensure that I get replaced properly.

Noted. I'll ask nopointinactingup first; he's the next available on my replacement list. Otherwise I'll PM you for assistance. ~Mod

Some final thoughts before I leave this game:
- One of {ReaperCharlie, Bowser, El Goosuki, Triglav} should be lynched today. They are the most likely scums.
- I do not understand The Lost Butterfly/Seacore wagon. Mina's side of the hydra resemble more like her town play in A Clash of Kings and his play lives up to it. I find the case on Seacore to be pretty weak and as a result, not lynch-worthy for today.
- Benmage should definently be watched over very closely, especially starting Day 4. I agree with AurorusVox's plan on how Benmage's fate should be decided due to Night 1 outcome.

If you people absolutely want me to, if I have not been replaced when I get home from school, I'll response to everything directed at me.

[hitogoroshi]

Bit curious about this Seacore wagon, now. What's the purpose? We've got 8 days to go, there's no information you guys particularly seem to be looking for from him, and yet you're happy to take much of the pressure off other suspects who haven't talked so much - like Bowser, <redacted> and <redacted>, for example.

Attention: Trilobite and hitogoroshi

, very interested in your votes in this regard.

Firstly, I feel like my vote on Seacore was for fairly clear reasons. Seacore's tunneling on Benmage left a seriously bad taste in my mouth, and seemed a little too focused on "We caught you doing an anti-town thing, you are now beyond redemption, stop denying us our free (mis)lynch."

Secondly:

Mod: I've been voting for Baby Spice as of 769.

Thanks, I've fixed the vote counts to reflect this. ~Mod

---

What the hell is with all of the "LOL SCUM WITH SEACORE" garbage, Fate?

---

a.) I still have a hate-on for AV despite all you tsk, tskers.

Just going to re-quote myself here:

Honestly, Spyrex, I'm not seeing your suspicion on AV. I'm getting a bad Caught In the Crossfire flashback here. That being said, you look pretty solidly town right now. In your next post, please either switch your vote from AV or really, really sell me the idea AV is scum.

---

What is it with hydra's not keeping up with the game? Triglav has been surprisingly low-impact, El Goosuki and Bowser have been non-entities. That being said, I still don't feel like us just wagoning the lurkers is a strong D1 play here. I normally have an intense love of early eugenic lynching, but the town size here makes it infeasible. There will always been a player who's not keeping up: I'm worried that a few townies are letting scum blend in as they hop from safe vote to safe vote. Yes, Bowser needs to get his ass in here and post, but three days from now when we're looking at the vote counts it's not going to do one iota of good to say "X voted for the lurker, the other lurker, and then a third lurker." We can call out non-contributors in our posts; I'd prefer votes be for reasons that are a little more extant.

---

Why are we wagoning Seacore over Baby Spice? Seacore has at least finally given us other suspects. Baby Spice is still voting for Furc, for heavens sake.

---

Posting these lists one more time. I want a little more fact-checking and opinions before I do anything more definite with them.

Spoiler: Players who Could Potentially Die Tonight

Fate
hitogoroshi
kunkstar7
Lost Butterfly
rewq455
Seacore
VP Baltar
Wickedestjr
xvart

Spoiler: Forbidden Insanities for N1

Hallucination
Suicidal
Sadism
Denial
Mutilation
Distraction
Necrophilia

Spoiler: Things to Claim in First D2 Post

Whether or not you heard noise
Whether or not you warded, and if so, who?
If you

successfully

Resuscitated (as in, the target died and you brought them back), and if so, who
Whether or not you gained insanities, and if so, what you chose

[Baby Spice]

Jeez. I fell asleep with 6 pages to read and now it's more like 10.

I think I'll cherry pick things as I read through and hopefully not end up with (yet) another wall post. Not that I've written one yet but ...

Is it just me, or has Benmage disagreed and or tried to prevent every plan that would confirm that he is town? The plan to have him kill Fate he was against. He's been trying to get Fate lynched instead.

It occured to me that perhaps Ben didn't stalk Fate, but someone else. The whole way he claimed that he stalked Fate struck me as weird, and after the signup thread I just assumed that he would and I suspect half of the town did. But what if he stalked someone else and did the claim thing partly to tweak Fate and partly to set him up. "What do you mean you didn't hear noise, you must have Ben stalked you you fake claiming scum!" Then when Fate claimed to hear noise we've just taken it as a given that Fate was Ben's target.
But Ben's flip flopping on killing Fte/not killing Fate and the whole lynch Fate thing makes me wonder if he really did stalk Fate.

Benmage also tried to persuade Fate to not use commune on him

Actually, it makes a little more sense if Fate is trying to avoid the commune, since if he stalked someone else then he'll be killing them and claiming the he didn't kill because fate is still alive. If he was then communed the insanity from the murder would show and proove the lie.

tl/dr maybe Benmage stalked someone other than Fate.

I find it highly unlikely that [Furcolow] stalked.

- Furc played in SA II, and in SA II, when warding, you hear a noise regardless of whether anyone visits you
- If Furc lied about Warding (i.e. if he stalked someone) then he would have claimed to have heard a noise, since as far as he would have known, he SHOULD have heard a noise
- Thus, I do not believe he is lying about Warding

So AV you're saying that Furc is too much a VI to properly research a fake ward claim so he really warded?

Vi over maliciousness?

There could be something in that, and it could explain a lot of Furcolow's posts.

"First of all, you did say you were "trying to play to your town meta""
XVART: I DON'T HAVE TO TRY. IT COMES NATURALLY.

Furcolow, I've quoted what you said twice now, and I believe Xvart has quoted it at least twice, and this is your answer?

Yeah, VI.

Unvote

You realize that Bowser is CSL, right?

As far as I'm aware the shit that Bowser has crapped onto this game has been CSL,

Five posts from a two person Hydra? Planned Lurking?
Fate, do you mean all the bowser posts have been CSL and shit, or are you saying that the three that are signed CSL are shit?

Is it just me or is the majority of what's going on Benmage/Fate and Furcolow related. Including plans about cofirming either of Fate/Benmage. Not that I'm understanding the logic behind most of them. SSBF's #725 is a good example, though there are others.

Good: Two townies players rob grave, no one gets anything as long as we're right on one of the two, two insanities.
Great: Townie we're sure of robs grave. Cultists not only get nothing, they have to take an insanity on the chin or else we get equipment, one insanity.

The problem with "Great" is that it's terrible if we're wrong on the townie. Furcolow doesn't want to do it, so I guess the question is, is there anyone besides him we feel safe calling "town" and making our graverobber? If not, it's not a huge deal, we can just have two people bounce the grave.

---

I still don't want Benmage to go through with the murder. If he and Fate were both under intense suspicion, it might be worth it. But they're both pretty likely town. Risking the death of one pretty likely town (with losing a Rez kit being our BEST case scenario) just to make another pretty likely town a confirmed town? I don't buy it. It's not worth either losing a townie or blowing a protect just to get the equivalent of a single investigation on a likely town slot.

Ok, I don't follow the plans to confirm Ben/Fate, and I feel that that are both investigators anyway and that most of the plans wont work or will get screwed with (Even if I do think Ben is trying for murderer). So why not avoid the problem and go with "Good" and have Ben and Fate do the grave robbing?

If Fate v. Benmage is town on town and we rez Benmage tonight so he cannot be killed by scum

From memory Ben didn't report hearing noise so he can't be the target of an NK N1.

Baby Spice is actually pretty similar. Lots of tunneling on Furcolow for the belief that he's mod-confirmed scum.

Really. Where did I give that impression?

I believe it is wrong, and innacurate, for Furcolow to call himself mod confirmed town, and if he was then the mod should have killed him. That sort of thing can ruin a game and it has happened to me where I was the one mod confirmed as town and it did destroy the game.
I have never called him, or tried to indicate that he was mod confirmed scum, and indeed after reading AV's #663 I'm willing to concede that Furc did ward El G and is most likely an investigator. A VI investigator though.

I do have a question for you, though: What would you think if you rezzed Fate tonight, but Benmage was dead by morning? <snip>
Which is why I keep thinking we should just lynch SEACORE, BABYSPICE, or one of the other OBVCULT.

You are suggesting lynching someone (possibly me) on the basis of something that cannot happen.

Why are you and Rewq pushing the same erronious idea? Master plan to get the town to waste resources/mis-lynch perhaps?

Damn, it's after midnight and there's been three pages added.

Looking to the most recent posts;

Which would you rather see: a cult or potential murderer swing? And why?

I saw this and thought Duh! cult. but then I thought about it a bit.
Follow me here. If I have this right a murderer can win by N5, and they only need to suceed with either their first or second attempt, and their third, whereas the cult can win at best by N7. Every murder that happens will affect this of course but since a murderer doesn't care the alignment of their target we have to assume that they will hit town more than cult, which improves the chances for the cult. Of course I am ignoring res kits here for simplicity.

On this basis we are much better stringing up potential murder's as they can hurt us two ways. ie: Murderer win con and possibly making the cult win con easier.
So if given the choice between cult and potential murderer we have to seriously consider the potential murderer.

At this point I'm not sure if the SA2 method of controlling murderers, grave robbing, will work reliably since people can ward the dead, and the cult might ward the dead to prevent reveals/control access soas to get grave dust. Which means that the murderer could claim to be blocked from the grave rob attempt.

Which means a: We should consider a policy lynch on Benmage today, and b: If we don't lynch him today then if there are any overnight murders we have to lynch him tommorow. (See above for my theory that Benmage didn't stalk Fate.) This applies to any other prospective murderer as well.
We also would have to be careful of town directed stalk/murder's
Final point. We can't eliminate the cultists before a murderer can possibly win, unless there's three cultists murdered.

Alternately, we have to leave any murderer or potential murderer alive and force them to kill each other, but then we run the risk of getting to N5 and having a murderer win by killing a rival, or lynching said rival on D4 by accident.

[hitogoroshi]

EBWOP: I assumed Seacore had a vote down when I wrote that. But I went back and checked and he doesn't? Seacore, your 958 was a perfect place to vote and I'm curious why you didn't. You've been getting a good deal of (justified) flak for not voting, and you respond by saying that you're going to stop defending yourself and start reading. Then you list your scum reads but don't vote for any of them. What gives?

(Acknowledging the Baby Spice ninja, but I have to get to class. I'll respond later today.)

[AurorusVox]

What is it with hydra's not keeping up with the game? Triglav has been surprisingly low-impact, El Goosuki and Bowser have been non-entities. That being said, I still don't feel like us just wagoning the lurkers is a strong D1 play here.

I get what you mean, but sometimes putting a wagon on a lurker pressures them into posting. I mean, the wagon analysis on lurkers is like is harder to analyse but not impossible; and if it makes a lurker post, you can always go back to your previous vote. Of course, there is a risk of letting scum hop lurker wagons, but there is also the risk of letting scum lurk. If someone is ONLY voting for lurkers, then I think that might indicate something; if they're doing more than that, then we have more to go on. It's a fine balance.

That was all just a means to get onto the subject of the hydras, though, because I just want to say that El G's latest post is just so...rage-inducing...that I can't tell if it's plain scummy or horribly anti-town, and would appreciate some opinions on the matter.

"Less discussion please; let's lynch asap; I'll vote for anyone."

I want to call him out on this posts, but that would mean engaging with him in that discussion that he hates, so I'm resorting to doing it via you as proxy. Maybe he'll see it and say something, but he's ignored the last question I asked him so I don't hold much hope. But I mean, come on, Percy warned this would be a post-heavy game; and we're not even a week into the game yet. We have NO need to lynch "FAST", and how does lynching with "little discussion" help us in any way at all in the long run? Not to mention "voting for anyone" is horrible for tracking a player's opinions.

/rant

I'll have a look at xvart's list and cross-reference my opinion out with yours (Y)

NinjaSpice, I think you've misunderstood a couple of things, so I'll post those up when I can quote you (in my next post)

[Feysal]

"Launder, Craft Fetish and Ward can also cause insanity"

key word being WARD

that being said, it did not cause me any insanity, so i don't know why that's in the OP. Perhaps if you ward a stalk, or the passing of a fetish.

If anybody is keeping a tally of how confused Furc seems to be getting about the consequences of his claimed N0 action, please add this to it.

For someone who claimed to be a smart Investigator who read the rules, Furcolow is certainly making some glaring mistakes.

Also, since those three posts are obviously supposed to be together, would it be too much to make a single post in cases like this?

For god sake, I've been through this a few times. In my opinion, Percy's post about what he would and would not have clarified does not match up with Furc's claims. You and others don't agree. Fine. Let's move on.

Oh so you've seen the arguments about non-ambiguity. But what about the argument that logically, it makes no sense that Furc would lie about having Warded and say he heard no noise? You say let's move on, but you're

not

moving on, because you're

continuing

to use an illogical reason to maintain calling someone scummy.

Not to be rude, but logic and Furcolow have very little to do with each other. Given the lack of sense in many of his posts and the mistake he made above, I can imagine Furcolow false claiming ward and forgetting it was supposed to make noise. But I can't imagine him being cult, since the other cult members would at least have been able to advise him on what to claim, even if they can't keep him on a leash. If he were planning to go murderer, there is a chance he might have stumbled and gotten his claim right by blind luck, but the odds of that are very very low. Trying to analyze Furcolow based on what would be logical of him makes as much sense as Furcolow himself.

In short, if Furcolow was uncharacteristically being logical when claiming, the claim would not make sense if he was not pro-town, and planning to stay that way. If he was being illogical, he probably would not have managed to pull it off without stumbling somewhere. Either way, I see no real cause to be suspicious of him.

Seacore Wagon:

(hitorogoshi, Plum, ReaperCharlie, AurorusVox, totallynotmafia, Trilobite, ReaperCharlie)

I see hitogoroshi just pointed it out, but he switched his vote to Baby Spice a while back. Your suspicions of Plum are noted, and there may be more to it. She was really vague about her point of Baby Spice and xvart warding the same player, which makes me wonder.

Posting these lists one more time. I want a little more fact-checking and opinions before I do anything more definite with them.

Your list of players in danger is correct, and I agree with the banned insanities and planned actions.

[AurorusVox]

Actually, it makes a little more sense if Fate

[I assume you mean BenMage here?]

is trying to avoid the commune, since if he stalked someone else then he'll be killing them and claiming the he didn't kill because fate is still alive. If he was then communed the insanity from the murder would show and proove the lie.

The point of the Commune was to see if Ben has stalked anyone at all, since Fate would have no insanities, and if Ben stalked he would have one without having to go through with the murder. However, if Ben is cult, he can get an insanity

before

the commune resolves, thereby faking that he stalked. So the commune became useless.

So AV you're saying that Furc is too much a VI to properly research a fake ward claim so he really warded?

It actually doesn't matter if he's a VI or a "proper researcher," because

even if

he had looked at the rules, they were only explicitly changed after he claimed that he hadn't heard a noise. Both his previous experience and the rules in this thread would have led him to believe that he SHOULD have heard a noise. And so it makes no sense, if he was lying, that he would have reported warding and also not hearing a noise.

Follow me here. If I have this right a murderer can win by N5, and they only need to suceed with either their first or second attempt, and their third, whereas the cult can win at best by N7.

A murderer cannot win until N6. They need at least three

successful

kills.

[Triglav]

Lost Butterfly's "ZOMG WHY WOULD SCUMHYDRA DO THIS AND CONTRADICT?" is really scummy in and of itself. Why would a Town Hydra overdefend their contradictions so much?

Yeah you're two different people, but you are ONE PLAYER SLOT. If you are a town hydra and want to be successful and not lynched, GET YOUR FUCKING READS TOGETHER BEFORE YOU POST. HAVING TO READ TWO DIFF PLAYERS FOR ONE SLOT IS ABSURD AND ANTI-TOWN.

Right now you're just two different players posting under the same name, and that isn't what hydraing is about. You need to have direction and focus, which helps people get a read on you, aka PRO-TOWN. Being schizo may not have all the "scum motivation in the world" but its ANTI-TOWN behavior, such as if any other player kept switching reads from post to post and was like "LOL WHY WOULD I SWITCH READS SO QUICKLY AS SCUM!??!"

Wanna actually focus on scumhunting instead of hydra-theory? Kthxbai.

---

Lost Butterfly is scummier than all get out, and you know it.

And you are not much better. Nice WIFOMGUS though.

There still is the elephant in the room in that you are DIRECTLY contradicting yourself here.

1) Hydras should not take time to co-ordinate reads/suspicions to avoid conflicting opinions and suspicions in the game-thread from the same player slot.
2) Hydras should not post without co-ordination and should instead take the time to get stories straight.

The two statements can not mutually survive. You are stating both. You need to pick one. You've essentially also done exactly what you're accusing LB of being scummy for, as you've contradicted your own read. Just you're not a hydra, so you don't even have that cop out.

Nice buzzwording though.

---

xvart should actually start doing something, no?

---

Seacore (re: 907) - Furc calling everyone who questions his alignment scum is null at best. Head has seen him do it as town prior.

---

Comfortable with where the stances are. Consulting with other heads for further input on some minor suspicions.

[Furcolow]

Furcolow - (MagnaofIllusion, kunkstar7, xvart, Baby Spice, Lost Butterfly, Seacore, Super Smash Bros. Fan)
of these, I can make 2 categories
those who have played with me before, and disliked me in that game they were in with me, and those who I FoSed for being cult and reactionary voted me

Group 1 (the hatas): MoI, kunk, xvart, SSBF
Group 2 (the cultists): Baby Spice, LB (3rd and 4th voters... jeep tells anyone?), and Seacore

if you are an investigator why are you suspicious of me for warding?

I'm not suspicous of you for warding. I think warding was one of the good actions. I don't entirely believe your ward claim, that is my point.

are you claiming i didnt ward?

I have no idea what you did or didn't do, I just feel there's evidence heavily suggesting that you have lied about your night action, whether you have lied about your action, target or both

if you are claiming i didnt ward, why would i claim ward BEFORE ANYONE ELSE?

why wouldn't you claim that? It's a really safe action that explains noise

if I didn't ward, why did El Goosuki hear noise?

Perhaps you stalked them, or perhaps you're cult and a fetish was made of them.

i also read that wards would cause you to hear noise, but percy changed the rule on me
furthermore, i really thought my ward had gone down alphabetically at one point


how is this not convincing to you, seacore?
if you want to HELP the town, find some scum

Well I'm trying to do that, but currently I'm having to defend myself against, what I feel were, responses to two causes of concern, you and Benmage.

OK so you're saying I'm a good lynch when my fucking action can be proved to NOT have them killed?
MY action prevents both stalks AND fetishes being crafted of them
when they don't die tomorrow or the next day,

WHAT THEN SEACORE?

In response to

lost butterfly's 934

:
i dislike how you said kunkstar, xvart, and baby spice, then used the word BOTH like you want to dismiss babyspice as she was 3rd on the list, and both wouldn't have included her. You then further that by defending seacore RIGHT AFTER.

i also dislike how you tried to lump my situation into the stupid fate/benmage pissing contest
my situation actually was relevant to the game
very happy lynching lost butterfly

Well if you FLIP Investigator no one's going to go 'HERP DERP HE MIGHT BE A MURDERER'. Before they go Psycho, Murderers can be reformed or even just be misguided Townies who eant to stay Investigator. And besides, what if someone wanted to go Murderer and took Denial last Night HUH Mister wiseguy? In conclusion, your premise is full of holes.

Sorry, but I'm going after Cult until we actually get people Murdering. Benmage doesn't count because claimed one-time Murdering Investigators make it almost impossible for them to win or do damage as Murderers if the Town doesn't fall over dead drunk.

Though you

can

[ only get an Insanity from Ward if you Ward someone who's dead, so that happens to be inapplicable.

Okay, admitidly I totally forgot about denial, although lets face it, that would not be a good insanity for a potential murderer to pick.

I'm okay with investigators using their one off kill to try and vig, but stalking N0 means you chose your target without game information, and that is anti town.

But the rest of your argument has already been told to me and has convinced me previously, that's why I'm not going after Benmage anymore.

i've mentioned it two or three times
you are admitting you don't read the thread here...
i guess you're too busy in your quicktime.

Plum, I understand if you skimmed over my giant walls of

doom

, but could I get an answer to these:

Oh, and I still haven't ISO'd AurorusVox, but I've been feeling better about AurorusVox and worse about SpyreX as the day has progressed. Plum and Benmage--aka, the people who'd cast doubt on SpyreX--exactly what in particularly bothers? Personally, he looked blindingly town at first, but it seems as though he's forcing his case a bit.

I already suspected Baltar and xvart (although I'd be surprised if both were scum based on how xvart followed Baltar onto me), and have had doubts of RC because of how shamelessly he jockeys for influence by kissing up to people, appealing to their past history, and padding his posts with fluffy jokes. (I've been meaning to ask Magna and Plum--both of whom have experience with him but have come to completely opposite reads--for a while if all the obnoxious buddying and joking is in character with ReaperCharlie's town self.)

why the negative word?
if you were town, wouldn't they be giant walls of win? hell, giant walls of <insert positive word here>
not doom
doom implies you have a subversive fucking intent
you are cult
seacore is cult
baby spice is cult
i'm not so sure of fate anymore, but he is probably fucking cult

LB's comment about Bowser is exactly why I haven't voted that way, even though I've been so tempted to. CSL did such a bad job of looking town in A Clash of Kings that even as a mod I occassionally forgot that he was town. Placing a vote on him just feels too easy. I ISO'd him to see if I'd missed a better reason, but there's nothing much there, just vague badness.

Anyway, yes, you'll get some actual suspects out of me before I got to bed tonight.

Seacore disses LB's vote for Bowser being town and scummy
Mina would be trying to vote for a scummy town player to get a mislynch because she is cult
Seacore would know this, and is faking appearing pro-town and distancing

they are cult together
it is so obvious to me
i wish it would be more obvious to you all

I'm not saying you were, I'm saying that given your position on Benmage this was a bit . . . yeah:

unvote;
vote: seacore

even if this guy is town, he will not help us
he obviously is incapable

Wow, just wow. What exactly have you brought to the game Furc? Your list of certain scum? Please wait until I'm lynched and revealed as somebody with 0 insanity points before you answer that.

Plum, I'm not saying I'm a great player. I'm fairly rubbish at scumhunting through posts, my talent comes from moments of insight when I combine investigations with claims, find holes of logic and catch scum that way. I caught 2 scum in PYP1 through that.

What I objected to was

furc

saying I was useless, when (admitidly from my unique standpoint) I'm aware that he's wrong about me, and probably wrong about LB and Fate.

The other difference was I disliked Benmage being actively anti-town rather than being rubbish-town. I feel there's a difference.

I understand that this is null, but you really need to not defend the people I'm lumping in with you as scum if you REALLY ARE TOWN YOU DON'T NEED TO DEFEND THEM. I doubt you are town, though, so whatever.

"Launder, Craft Fetish and Ward can also cause insanity"

that being said, it did not cause me any insanity, so i don't know why that's in the OP. Perhaps if you ward a stalk, or the passing of a fetish.

If anybody is keeping a tally of how confused Furc seems to be getting about the consequences of his claimed N0 action, please add this to it.

i'm not confused what so fucking ever
i protected them from any stalk or fetish
bam

@TRIGLAV

Seacore, LB, and BabySpice ALL ATTACKED ME AFTER MY FOS ON THEM
NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.

[Furcolow]

@Mod: I am so sorry to do this, but please replace me out of this game. As much as I would like to stay in this game, I cannot do so any longer. I've gotten way too addicted to this site and it's tearing down my grades in school, something that I feared would happen to me eventually. Plus being in two games at one time was a huge mistake for me as it required me to spend even more time on the computer. I'm that type of person who spends more time reading then posting and because of that, I spend way too much time on this game and I'm paying for it.

I will search out a replacement for myself to ensure that I get replaced properly.

Noted. I'll ask nopointinactingup first; he's the next available on my replacement list. Otherwise I'll PM you for assistance. ~Mod

Some final thoughts before I leave this game:
- One of {ReaperCharlie, Bowser, El Goosuki, Triglav} should be lynched today. They are the most likely scums.
- I do not understand The Lost Butterfly/Seacore wagon. Mina's side of the hydra resemble more like her town play in A Clash of Kings and his play lives up to it. I find the case on Seacore to be pretty weak and as a result, not lynch-worthy for today.
- Benmage should definently be watched over very closely, especially starting Day 4. I agree with AurorusVox's plan on how Benmage's fate should be decided due to Night 1 outcome.

If you people absolutely want me to, if I have not been replaced when I get home from school, I'll response to everything directed at me.

couple this with his being the last vote on me, following BS LB and SC, and I am shifting from neutral to leaning scummy simply on this post

the people he claims are "good lynches for today" seem to be more like "good mislynches to scum" from my perspective. I do not feel there is a single scum on the list of "good lynches" he made.

[ReaperCharlie]

- One of {ReaperCharlie, Bowser, El Goosuki, Triglav} should be lynched today. They are the most likely scums.

rofl, I hope you are joking about ME being scum.

I see Bowser and Triglav sorta, but I don't feel anything either way about El Goosuki.

Also, that sucks that you're replacing out. Stay in PLEASE if you can.

You are one of the best townies I know and I NEED YOU.

[Furcolow]

I was responding both to her concerns and to her confusion between "Investigator" (which is a role) and "Town" (which is a choice of alignment).

Damn, I knew I'd seen someone say that. It sort of explains what I was trying to say about Benmage. Investigator (Role) but not town (Alignment).

cult have to focus on murderers obviously to appear "(protown)" hahahaha

[Furcolow]

would like to hear more from manho