Stars Aligned III - The Tenth Day

[Furcolow]

well, wingless felt pretty pro-town in iso, but neither one of them has a lot of content

[MagnaofIllusion]

Catch-up post incoming –

Regarding plans being staged for the Night

– I think that Hito’s list of players at risk and claims name immediately Day 2 are the best extent we can try to plan. An inordinate amount of text has been devoted to planning complicated methods by which Benmage can confirm himself via killing Fate and Fate can be saved. All are based on incomplete or inaccurate information (for example many of the Benmage kills Fate who is rezzed plans hinge on Fate being able to say for certain he was murdered, which Percy’s 815 clearly indicates is wrong). Any player with a Rez kit can decide what players on the ‘At Risk’ list are worth saving. Making some complicated plan out in the open just allows the Cult to find a hole in the plan and act to thwart the plan or cause the outcome to be confusing for Town if possible.

On the Topic of Cult re the Furc Fiasco

– I’ve seen multiple people make statements that anyone who questioned Furc’s status as Investigator past Page 3 (or some other arbitrary point) and I disagree completely. Furc’s explanation for his actions and general play were scummy and obscuring regarding his alignment. I’m going to suggest what I always think in circumstances – you are more likely to find Cult hiding among those people who are steadfastly assured of Furc’s innocence immediately despite his play (even before rule changes and responses from Percy), since the Cult would know he is an Investigator. ReaperCharlie, VV and VP Baltar are players who come to mind immediately.

This game is crushing my will … seriously.

Yellow reads does irritate me.

VOTE: AurorusVox

Ok Captian Randompants why AV as opposed to xvart or BabySpice who at the time each also had 3 votes?

I should grave rob because I am awesome and town, and (as I already said) I'm a shining beacon of hope and sanity.

And if you are an Investigator who is planning to go Murderer the bonus of sniffing out your competition has nothing to do with it huh?

And once again I see your claptrap regarding being a Beacon – me thinks thou does protest too much!

I do have a question for you, though: What would you think if you rezzed Fate tonight, but Benmage was dead by morning?

Hey look who isn’t paying any attention to their ‘actual’ scum-hunting. Benmage CAN’T die since he didn’t hear noises. And unless you can come up with a compelling reason why ANY alignment would lie about it then there is no way this hypothetical is coming true.

In the last game you could rob two graves per night. That's how we shut down so many of the murderers. I think this is still the case in this game except now Percy included Ward to block Rob Grave as well. This means that someone can be prevented from robbing a grave and thus it cant' really be used as a roleblock action anymore. That's why I said in the sign up thread that the rules have moved more toward favoring scum. Makes it more difficult, but what can you do I guess.

Given your ranting about the thread being filled with useless and redundant information why did you feel the need to basically repeat what I said at the Top of post 713?

@ xvart and MoI - What do you think of Lost Butterfly? Do their conflicting posts bother you?

Given that there was significant confusion (generated by Furc himself) regarding his claims I don’t find their conflicting posts inherently scummy. Mina’s posts do generally read to what I would consider her Town meta. I don’t really have a Faraday meta that I can identify so overall I have a Neutral leaning Town read on the slot.

[qutoe="Furcolow"]I believe you're town, but you need to take your own advice.[/quote]

Wait, weren’t you just calling Fate scum in this same post for calling other players Town and not using the words probably or if? Are you being hypocritical or are you going to fall back on the whole “I’m confirmed” bit to explain your inconsistency.

It doesn't matter what other people think. What matters is I'm seeing some indications that your Furc-agressiveness may have been faked, and now that Furc's near-unanimously believed to be Town, you're looking for something to do. So you follow on Spy to vote on AV. However, the problem is that lacks the usual MoI Town-aggression I've seen before~. It reeks of buddy distancing, I tellz ya.

If you can point to the indications that my pursuit of Furc was faked then do so. Otherwise you are just throwing rhetoric. Hey I can do that to –

I’m seeing clear signs that VV is Cult faking his scumhunting. He just doesn’t seem like the VV I’ve seen before.

See how useless that is? And care to point to a specific game where you saw my Town-aggression? Because I don’t think we’ve played in many games together if my memory serves.

Can you go over why you think Spy's case on AV is good?

AV’s early fence-sitting on Furc as highlighted by Spy is accurate, IMO. Once the tide shifted suddenly AV jumped on the ‘Furc is Obv-Town’ wagon and is trying to take credit for being the first one there. Sorry, not flying with me. And his posts since then have almost all revolved around game mechanics as opposed to scum-hunting.

Nah. MoI is scummier, fo srs. I mean, have you seen that vote hop? It was like, woah.

1. So vote-hopping is inherently scummy?
2A. If Yes why aren’t you also calling to task any number of the other players who have made similar votes?
2B. If NO it is not how am I scummy for it?
2C. If the answer is ‘It Depends’ vote yourself as you are a terrible fake-scumhunter and thus Cult.

[AurorusVox]

MoI, I have never tried to take credit for being the "first" to "say" Furc was town. I'm taking credit for having the first good "argument" for TownFurc - which is evidenced by the fact that I convinced YOU that he was town. If I'm following someone on

that

, then surely you would have been convinced by whoever's coattails I'm supposedly riding that Furc was town. But you weren't. You unvoted two posts after my argument, referencing it specifically. I've emphasised that I'm talking about "argument" vs. "saying" before, did you not read my posts or are you trying to misrep me on purpose?

Yes, a lot of my posts have been mechanics based, but that's because I thought that we could get something awesome from the Ben/Fate situation. I've now accepted defeat, and have turned off mechanics-mode. But I have been trying to keep up with scumhunting too. I think that it was worth dedicating that much time to mechanics when it could have given us a clear and kept Fate alive, but now that it can't, I'll be doing more old-fashioned scumhunting.

[AurorusVox]

Uhh...ERROR, ERROR

Go back to page 39 and look at post #969, apparently posted at 2:50pm earlier today. That was my response to MoI...but it's been posted in the past. Like...wtf?!

For chronological sake, I'll post it again.

---

MoI, I have never tried to take credit for being the "first" to "say" Furc was town. I'm taking credit for having the first good "argument" for TownFurc - which is evidenced by the fact that I convinced YOU that he was town. If I'm following someone on

that

, then surely you would have been convinced by whoever's coattails I'm supposedly riding that Furc was town. But you weren't. You unvoted two posts after my argument, referencing it specifically. I've emphasised that I'm talking about "argument" vs. "saying" before, did you not read my posts or are you trying to misrep me on purpose?

Yes, a lot of my posts have been mechanics based, but that's because I thought that we could get something awesome from the Ben/Fate situation. I've now accepted defeat, and have turned off mechanics-mode. But I have been trying to keep up with scumhunting too. I think that it was worth dedicating that much time to mechanics when it could have given us a clear and kept Fate alive, but now that it can't, I'll be doing more old-fashioned scumhunting.

[Baby Spice]

It actually doesn't matter if he's a VI or a "proper researcher," because

even if

he had looked at the rules, they were only explicitly changed after he claimed that he hadn't heard a noise. Both his previous experience and the rules in this thread would have led him to believe that he SHOULD have heard a noise. And so it makes no sense, if he was lying, that he would have reported warding and also not hearing a noise.

Only the "Hearing Noise" section was changed, to reflect how the rule was presented in the "Ward" action.

Follow me here. If I have this right a murderer can win by N5, and they only need to suceed with either their first or second attempt, and their third, whereas the cult can win at best by N7.

A murderer cannot win until N6. They need at least three

successful

kills.[/quote]

You're right and wrong. Three murders, I misread a bit there, but N5. N0 stalk, N1 murder, N2 stalk, N3 murder, N4 stalk, N5 third murder for the possible win.
Which means that we have to be careful how many murderer's we have. Whether we have any investigators besides Benmage who can achieve this by N5 it's too early to tell, but I believe there were three murder attempts N1 (Or whatever the first oppertunity was) for SAII.

[Trilobite]

Agree with whoever said push on furc was probably scum generated.
Consider two oddest furc commentors to be Seacore (oddly insistent in spite of really solid furctown case) and Feysal (had huge wall post where Triglav could swear he was talking out of both sides of mouth at once, had to re-read to see if we could even understand what stance he was taking)

See that's the thing that makes me wonder about Seacore. Surely, by the point where Seacore is basically pushing the cart alone (#445 or so), his scum-team would have been telling him to back off, right? The lack of wiggle-room he's given himself really makes him sound more like tunnelled town to me. Furcolow manages to give it a bit more momentum through aggressive rage-flail, but there's no obvious scummy support at that point; so I can't see it as part of a co-ordinated plan. If he's scum, the time-zone difference must be playing havoc with their ability to co-ordinate a plan.

See this is where we see things differently. If you want to see tunneled town, ISO Baby Spice. The last time I read her (just before the weekend) she was doing nothing

but

pushing on furc. The only time she addressed anyone else was if someone asked her a direct question. That is pure tunneling. Here your logic on hypo scum buddies telling the player to back off would apply. The fact she was so zeroed in points towards town for me. Mainly because I suspect if she was scum, she would have gotten some pressure to do other things like you suggest.

Seacore doesn't follow this mold.

I like the case on furcolow, I must have missed the case on Fate, so I'll revisit.

Okay, it's true, I didn't follow up on the Furcolow thing, but I also didn't vote for him.

Yeah, that doesn't count for too much, but I was out all day in between the early posts and the late ones. At the time, it seemed he'd been caught in a lie. Now that seems unlikely. I was also distracted by the Fate/Benmage lovers tiff.

Also, when I did my reread

(true, it was a skim)

I noticed somebody waiting for a mod clarification on Fur, and I was kinda waiting for that.

I'm satisfied that Furcolow has been caught

Vote Furcolow

Assuming Percy does not clarify that he changed your target, these posts suggest heavily that you have lied about who you targeted.

Wow, just wow. I'm no longer responding until either Percy clears you or other players bring something new to the discussion. But seriously, wow. Take a moment and, just to yourself, read over everything you've posted. Do you see how we're all viewing you? The image of a rabid frothing lunatic is coming to my mind.

Don't bother responding, I'm not going to talk to you anymore.

@Seacore, Butterfly: Could you please sum up why Fur's mix up with the ward is scummy?

Percy posted an hypothetical clarification, saying that if he received an unclear night action, he would request clarification.

It is the opinion of myself, and I think others, that Fur submitting a ward action of a player that was not in the game would warrant a clarification email. At the very least, you'd think that Percy would send back "Drippereth isn't playing, would you be satisfied with the El Goosuki hydra, as it has both DGB and Elliberth in it"

It is Furc's defence that Percy automatically upgraded "Drippereth" to "El Goosuki" without confirmation.

I find this incredibly unlikely.

Therefore, Furc lied.

Okay, I still find it really hard to believe that Percy would not have clarified the target with Furc, but I am being swayed by the argument that there is little scum reason to lie about it.

So

Unvote

The first two quotes (69 and 393) are extremely wishy washy. In a large theme such as this, I don't know why you would need to wait for the mod to answer questions before putting your vote on your top suspect. For one, pressure is good, running people up is how we are going to get things done in this game despite all cries to the contrary. There is no reason to with hold your vote at this point. But Seacore does. And he waits until finally Percy answers said question and suddenly furc is caught, when really, he's not.

A portion of the town take this and run with it, Seacore being one of these people. This is where he is at his most confident (Posts 441, 445 + 474). Furc rages for a little bit but eventually common sense comes back and the furc wagon is shown up for what it is imo, a cult push.

Seacore unvotes right away. This is not tunneled behavior at all. This is scummy because he is moving with the opinion of the town way too easily. Starting off with his lack of a real stance on furc early, leaving the back door open for a wagon jump. He then eases into “omg furc is mod confirmed scum” with a bunch of other people. Followed by the quick unvote when it is clear a big portion of the town doesn't agree with that sections ideas.

The point of all this? Seacore's push on furc was opportunistic. The fact you can't see that could be because you know him out side of MS, because I have been burned like that before. That or you are his buddy. But the fact is, Seacore's hands are very dirty when it comes to furc. He also hasn't placed another vote since that I have seen. How can he not have another suspect at this point even just to bandwagon?

Hesitant scum? I think so.

~Sotty. Currently only

[9]

pages behind.

[Baby Spice]

Lost Butterfly's "ZOMG WHY WOULD SCUMHYDRA DO THIS AND CONTRADICT?" is really scummy in and of itself. Why would a Town Hydra overdefend their contradictions so much?

For those who haven't spotted it, this appears to be the first post to have been posted with the wrong future time stamp.

[Feysal]

We seem to be caught in a time paradox, all of the posts currently appearing five hours in the past. It's happening in another game as well, so it probably affects the whole forum. We may want to take a short break and wait for the situation to sort itself out (two hours from now, new posts will appear at the end of the thread as they should).

[Seacore]

EBWOP: I assumed Seacore had a vote down when I wrote that. But I went back and checked and he doesn't? Seacore, your 958 was a perfect place to vote and I'm curious why you didn't. You've been getting a good deal of (justified) flak for not voting, and you respond by saying that you're going to stop defending yourself and start reading. Then you list your scum reads but don't vote for any of them. What gives?

(Acknowledging the Baby Spice ninja, but I have to get to class. I'll respond later today.)

You're right. That was my bad, I was distracted IRL. I paused after writing the post to decide which would get my vote, got distracted and clicked submit.

Vote:AV

Seems the scummiest out of my list. But I'll jump to any of them should the deadline approach.

[Fate]

So who's town and who's scum if Seacore flips cult and you get killed tonight, Fate?

Just for the record, since you seem pretty sure you're gonna die anyway?

THAT'S LITERALLY WHAT I JUST POSTED PAY ATTENTION BC YOU'RE HiGH ON THAT LIST

[El Goosuki]

We cannot ever lynch hitorogoshi! I love the way he uses spoiler tags.

-DGB

[Seacore]

The point of all this? Seacore's push on furc was opportunistic. The fact you can't see that could be because you know him out side of MS, because I have been burned like that before. That or you are his buddy. But the fact is, Seacore's hands are very dirty when it comes to furc. He also hasn't placed another vote since that I have seen. How can he not have another suspect at this point even just to bandwagon?

You're missing the point.

I have really one piece of evidence for which I thought Furc should be lynched. His lie.
To me, that was enough. I did not expect a longer case built on him, a series of connections with other players etc. Just that.

The majority of players are clearly not willing to lynch him for it. Either they don't believe he lied or they don't believe the lie is a big deal and/or scummy.

So I left the wagon, because it was not going to go anywhere.

I understand that from a glance that looks opportunistic, but it is simply realistic.
For most lynches you have a growing case against somebody, they do a series of scummy things, and thus to jump on while it's hot and jump off with everybody else, yet, that looks like opportunistic wagon hopping.

But that doesn't apply here.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I have no idea how to even begin responding to Furc.

You want me to base a town read on you by
a) believing your problematic series of night action claims AND
b) trusting that your supposed target will still be alive by D3?

Since I can't read your mind and I can't see the future, you'll have to understand why I can't take these things as facts.

Yes, in 40 pages I missed and/or forgot about denial. Thats not a big deal, there's a lot going on. But I also explain how that would be one of the worst insanities a murderer trying to stay under the radar could take.

My comment about LB's Bowser comment wasn't a read of LB, it was just an agreement that Bowser is problematic because it's a scummy looking slot, that has CSL in it (somebody who nearly always looks scummy) and it just felt a bit too easy to attack.

Let me ask you something Furc.
Put on your "hypothetical hat"
What happens if you lynch me today, I reveal as investigator after a graverob.
D2 you decide to lynch LB, because hey, you can't be wrong twice can you? But then they reveal as investigator.

What would you be doing Day 3?
And will you admit your reads are wrong on that day?

[Plum]

Seacore - what's your point regarding Furc, again?

[Seacore]

Ah, I see the time paradox now.
My above post was in response to Furclow's 1:10 pm post

[El Goosuki]

I think I know what you mean by time paradox... it's 6:57PM, and my post inserted itself in the 1:57PM time slot!

Groovy... this is good weed.

-DGB

[Plum]

Ah, I see the time paradox now.
My above post was in response to Furclow's 1:10 pm post

Question stands.

[Seacore]

Seacore - what's your point regarding Furc, again?

Depends what you mean.

I find him scummy. I'm not satisfied by his claims. Lies, in my books, are always scummy, and if I ever catch somebody in one, I like to lynch them.

That being said, it is clear now that a majority of people are not willing to lynch Furc on Day 1 for this.
I accept that, I'm a realist, so now I'm moving on.

The only reason I have kept talking about Furc since my unvote has been pretty much to defend myself against the accusation that my attack on him was scummy. Which is tricky because it looks like I'm making a case that I'm not pushing for.

[Seacore]

Ah, I see the time paradox now.
My above post was in response to Furclow's 1:10 pm post

Question stands.

Keep your pants on, I was typing the response.

You might want to look into that, people might think you're tunnelling me and trying to make me look scummy.

[AurorusVox]

Seacore, I made a post a few pages back in response to your post in response to my post in response to your latest posts.

Didn't want it to get lost in the timewarp, and I figured it was worth mentioning whilst you were here. It was post #960 ^^"

[Plum]

Seacore - what's your point regarding Furc, again?

Depends what you mean.

I find him scummy. I'm not satisfied by his claims. Lies, in my books, are always scummy, and if I ever catch somebody in one, I like to lynch them.

That being said, it is clear now that a majority of people are not willing to lynch Furc on Day 1 for this.
I accept that, I'm a realist, so now I'm moving on.

The only reason I have kept talking about Furc since my unvote has been pretty much to defend myself against the accusation that my attack on him was scummy. Which is tricky because it looks like I'm making a case that I'm not pushing for.

Then why are you arguing with him about whether his reads are correct or not? If you really believe he's lying, wouldn't the obvious explanation be 'it's all scum fabrications to me anyway' from your point of view? Granted I might be missing a few things between chronogate and sheer information overload of the thread (be doing a Baby Spice read tonight/when chronogate has been resolved, methinks).

Let me ask you something Furc.
Put on your "hypothetical hat"
What happens if you lynch me today, I reveal as investigator after a graverob.
D2 you decide to lynch LB, because hey, you can't be wrong twice can you? But then they reveal as investigator.

What would you be doing Day 3?
And will you admit your reads are wrong on that day?

[Seacore]

In response to AV's 960

Yes, that was me just saying "you know what, I should really look closer at these people, because I've just been assuming they were mislabelled along with me"

I've seen the arguments for Furc not lying, to me, they don't stand up. My fundamental issue is that I can't believe Percy wouldn't confirm.

I will not let go of my belief that Furc is lying. But no, that won't jeopardise my posts for the rest of the day, because even if Furc isn't, his arguments are utter shit. He's attacked anybody who has said they don't believe him. I've looked into my supposed scum buddies: Fate, LB and BS, and they all seem town to me. Probably in that order of towniness by my reads. His logic has so many gaps in it I have trouble typing responses. So no, I don't view that as an issue.

There were enough prod votes on Bowser without mine, and I was worried throwing mine on there would distract from the prods by opening an argument about my "opportunism"

I don't expect you to see and/or admit to reaching

My issue with your plan is that I've seen scum make faulty plans before. It is much easier than usual to do it in these complex rules. Basically you come up with a plan that looks good. Best case scenario people buy it and hurt town. Worst case scenario people spend days pulling it apart and scum hunting takes a back seat.

[Seacore]

Then why are you arguing with him about whether his reads are correct or not? If you really believe he's lying, wouldn't the obvious explanation be 'it's all scum fabrications to me anyway' from your point of view? Granted I might be missing a few things between chronogate and sheer information overload of the thread (be doing a Baby Spice read tonight/when chronogate has been resolved, methinks).

Well
a) other people seem to be using his reads, or at least accepting his reads, and that concerns me.
b) it was admitidly born out of a little frustration in which he's asked me to predict 2 days ahead to assume he's innocent but seems unwilling to question his own reads for a second.

So mostly it was written to Furc-town whether or not he exists.

[El Goosuki]

Yellow really does irritate me.

VOTE: AurorusVox

Ok Captian Randompants why AV as opposed to xvart or BabySpice who at the time each also had 3 votes?

MOAR YELLOW.

[El Goosuki]

WOW I'm psychic, I'm answering questions BEFORE they are asked!

-DGB

[Seacore]

WOW I'm psychic, I'm answering questions BEFORE they are asked!

-DGB

Is anybody in your hydra attempting to get caught up?

If so, is there an ETA on that?