Zachtown in the mountains (Game over TOWN WINS!)

[Sotty7]

Mod, can we gat a vote count please?

[Zachrulez]

3rd Vote Count of D1 P2

Percy - 6 (Benmage, RedCoyote, I Am Innocent, Locke Lamora, JasonT1981, KaleiÐoscøpe)
RedCoyote - 3 (Furcolow, Elmo, Sotty7)
Baby Spice - 2 (Nikanor, Percy)
Benmage - 1 (Baby Spice)
Sotty7 - 1 (Havingfitz)

Not Voting: (Mina, Lrdwhyt)

If I made any mistakes please politely point them out and I will correct them.

Deadline for Day 1 is Friday, November 12 at 12pm CST

With 15 alive it's 8 to lynch.

[Zachrulez]

Correction made to the deadline in the vote count. The 12th is Friday, not Thursday. You guys have 3 days left.

[KaleiÐoscøpe]

Let's lynch Percy today and take a closer look at RedCoyote tomorrow.

[Sotty7]

The people who aren't voting need to change that in their next posts so we can see where we stand. Not voting with three days to go on the deadline is very poor.

[Percy]

@Mod: I voted Baby Spice here.

I've had time to read, but it's too late for me to brain writing a post. My vote is staying where it is, and I'll put a post together tomorrow.

[Zachrulez]

@Mod: I voted Baby Spice here.

I've had time to read, but it's too late for me to brain writing a post. My vote is staying where it is, and I'll put a post together tomorrow.

Correction made.

[jasonT1981]

I am tempted by a promised Babyspice wagon but Red is looking worse and worse to me. I don't understand how people can say his posts are townie like. The only person I am willing to leave Red for now is Nikanor.

Sotty, what do you think about HavingFitz coming of a hot wagon with only days left to deadline to vote you, with no other votes upon you? Attempt to deley a lynch on scum? or something else?

[Sotty7]

I think he thinks he has a good case on me. I have no issue with him voting for someone he has as his number one pick as long as he is willing to comprise come deadline time. Three days is a long time.

[Elmo]

Yeah, well, I'm fighting for my life here, and you cbf looking at alternatives - you're just going to complain that no-one else is looking!

You realise that I'm actually voting for the person with the most votes who isn't you, right? I wasn't complaining, I meant exactly what I said; Red isn't (wasn't) defending himself, and no-one else is arguing that person X looks worse than Red, so my vote stays.

I don't know, Elmo. Do you mean different in the course of this game or different from Hoopla's game?

Different from Hoopla's game.

I'm sorry they're not as well thought out as "he sounds like an old man".

You cannot seriously be implying that I haven't clearly laid out why I'm voting you or that I don't have good reasons to suspect you.

Is there anything about Fur that strikes you as particularly town?

No.

It's hard for me to explain why exactly those things are scummy if we have such a fundamental difference of opinion.

I don't see why at all. Your reasoning is completely independent from my opinions, which you

still haven't given

. You have just stated "Fur did X" and implied it's scummy without explaining why. Very probably we have different premises, which is best dealt with by stating yours.

I think we should be lynching someone off the wagon, but I'm not sure precisely how we narrowed it down to these two. Like, no-one has brought up Mina or Nikanor yet, and I don't know why.

These are almost as bad as Baby's suggestions. They seem completely arbitrary in light of Dry-fit's flip given that both of them were virtually removed from the discussion. Perhaps this is exactly why they speak to you, but I couldn't disagree more.

I didn't propose lynching them, I meant exactly what I said - I don't know why all the votes are on you and Percy in particular.

Um...maybe I shouldn't tempt fate, but in that case, why

aren't

you proposing a lynch of me or Nikanor?

Because I don't think you're a better lynch than who I'm voting for.

What exactly is your point here? Are you saying, "Guys, there are nice juicy mislynch targets that you can make cases on, if you want, at which point I might jump on the wagon?" Are you saying we're better lynches than Red/Percy/LrdWhyt/Baby Spice? Are you saying someone should propose our lynch

for no other reason

than because we're off the wagon?

My point is precisely what I said. I did not say any of the above things.

This is not complicated.

I know your vote is on RC, but are you opposed to a Percy lynch? Right now, is there anyone you suspect who is on the Dry-Fit wagon?

I'm largely indifferent beyond voting someone who wasn't on the wagon (out of principle), the only reason I'm voting Red is because of my earlier suspicions.

Why did you single out me and Nikanor, and not, say, LrdWhyt?

I can't remember the exact timing, but I think he was absent for most of the wagon.

[Furcolow]

(Havingfitz, Locke Lamora, Benmage, KaleiÐoscøpe, Sotty7, Elmo, I Am Innocent, Furcolow, JasonT1981)

with this argument, you need to take into consideration
1) scum can bus
2) i am not perfect
3) i am not saying this argument is the be-all-end-all

These people were not on the dry-fit wagon in which we lynched scum:

Percy - I read him as town. I haven't seen him play as scum, though. He feels pro-town to me.
Nikanor - I read him as town as well. I feel like he requires a lot of evidence to vote/unvote/change votes.
RedCoyote - I definitely read him as dry-fit's scumbuddy, hence my vote.
Mina - I will have a better read on her shortly
Lrdwhyt - KingDavid made the same mistake I made. town.
Baby Spice - I guess that leaves babyspice as scum? null read from me


The only difference between the people on Percy's wagon, and the people on dry-fits, are that a few aren't on there (myself, for instance), and redcoyote IS.

RedCoyote, what makes you so sure of percy, yet you wouldn't vote dry-fit? why why why

[RedCoyote]

The only thing scummy regarding percy IMO was his absence from the Dry-fit wagon. But that doesn't really mean anything as not everyone off the DF wagon can be scum and I would be surprised if there was scum on the DF wagon as well. The "big omission" is due to an absence of suspcion.

All due respect, fitz, but that doesn't really answer the question. Although I like you going after Sotty, it just doesn't seem like the most opportune time to do so. Further, when there have been allegations issued against Percy, you should address to some degree with either agreement, disagreement, or what have you. If Percy hasn't done anything scummy, why are we wrong for thinking so?

---

See, this makes no sense to me. How does calling out my two biggest town reads hurt the Dry-Fit wagon? I also voted Dry Fit in the end which is more than you did, so your stance that it makes me look worse is pretty ridiculous.

You did sneak a Kscope comment in there, my mistake. I retract that.

The bigger point is still that, like Percy, you throw Dry-fit in your post with as little involvement as possible. It's an out for you. It's a way for you to say, "surely I can't be scum, look at how quickly I was suspicious of Dry-fit". In reality, you didn't commit to the case, you, instead, committed to Nikanor. It's my opinion that Dry-fit's partners, not looking to outright stonewall this wagon, must've tried to dismantle it using subtly. There's nothing quite as subtle in this regard than acknowledging the Dry-fit wagon as great and then throwing everything you got at a player like Nikanor, who, as best as I can tell, is playing like typical Nikanor.

So Nikanor is tunnelling on jason with arguments that you don't consider to be very valid. I mean, come on, Sotty. Give me any game in the history of this website and you're bound to see at least one example of that. I just think it's a bit elementary for a case. Further, I think it's worse that you're still trying to rally others to the cause after Dry-fit's flip. It's too much of a shot in the dark. There are few connections between Nikanor and Dry-fit and the town's number one asset at this point is unquestionably playing off that flip. Further again, the fact that no one else has shown major interest in Nikanor at least for the time being should clue you in that it would probably be best to table the idea today.

And I'm hardly going to make a case against myself, Sotty. I recognize I don't look good in light of Dry-fit's flip. This is why I'm upping my viciousness a bit. There's a good chance I won't be around later, and it would be helpful for the town to get as much input from me as possible if that's to be the case.

---

Different from Hoopla's game.

One's a small, closed, mostly hand-picked game with quite a few power roles, and the other is a large, mountainous, mostly open sign ups game. I don't think I'm being different. I think the environments are probably as different as two games could be.

I don't see why at all. Your reasoning is completely independent from my opinions, which you still haven't given. You have just stated "Fur did X" and implied it's scummy without explaining why. Very probably we have different premises, which is best dealt with by stating yours.

I dispute that. He's being far too emotional, contrived, and flighty.

Furcolow is absolutely all over the place. Not just in the above post, but throughout this entire game. He's on full panic mode now and letting every emotion go that he can. He's a complete loose cannon. If you haven't paid as much attention to his posts throughout this game, you owe it to yourself to check him out in isolation. If he's town, he's too weak-willed and emotional. Every time I've looked the other way when someone has tried to appease everyone he could, I've regretted it. In general I've found that scum are more likely to placate in a manner similar to Fur.

When someone is as unprincipled as Fur is, I've found it to be a potential indicator of scum. I'm not just implying here, and I backed my rhetoric up with a vote.

---

RedCoyote, what makes you so sure of percy, yet you wouldn't vote dry-fit?

Unlike some people, I don't know how players will flip. I was very clear that I didn't want Dry-fit to be lynched before we had an alternative wagon. Since that advice wasn't heeded (which turned out to be a good call given Dry-fit's alignment), the best thing for the town to do is see who was trying to underhandedly sabotage the Dry-fit wagon, regardless of their votes. If you ask me, those three people are you, Sotty, and Percy.

[Furcolow]

i was one of the main people ON the wagon
you werent on the wagon at all
how am i being "contrived and flighty"?
where did i say i knew where people would flip?
how am i being unprincipled?

you have no basis for these accusations
im keeping my vote on you
your post was good until you attacked your attacker
ad hominem is a no no as scum

[Benmage]

My initial read of Dry-fit was scummy, but I was seeing scum in the way the wagon was developing, and I didn't think there was enough for a lynch. I was wrong.

Yep.

vote Percy

so now that I'm confirmed town Lets nail another scum.

It's a fact that you were third on the Dry-fit wagon, and you gave it a big push.
...
It does buy you a lot of town points, doesn't it. Fuck, I was so sure I was on to something with you.

Hmmmm. I'm going to leave off my case for the moment. But I'm not considering you confirmed, and I'll still be keeping a close eye on you.

Lol. The mod might as well have confirmed. But you need to keep up your undermining. I'm appreciating the "hannity". And whats with this "case"?? You got a case me...lol i'd love to hear it.

Lets see.... Despite alternative wagons the one you campaigned got a scum lynched!.....oh wait

Fuck. Fuck!

With my Hannity read blown, and my RedCoyote read blown, I'm reeling and need to re-read.

Lets seee...(what happened to his furc read?)

Based on nothing more than the slip that has been pointed out before, I'm going to

Vote: Baby Spice

. For those that missed it, here it is again:

Hmm, Jason's #98. Blatant buddy on Sotty and

a vote on town

that includes buddying as a reason.

Note the bold! Vote on TOWN.... now how is BS so sure eh?

I really like this slip for BS-scum. I'm going to re-read and figure out whether my vote should stay, but that's where I want to go right now.

Easy vote on Furc-VI yesterday. Easy vote on obv-VI BS today. Trying to be very non-confrontational aye Percy.

I actually wouldn't mind seeing the case on Percy. I'm still undecided about it. BS right now is my no1 pick as scum.

BS is an easy mislynch. You don't want him here in lylo...but we dont need him dead yet

I think jason, havingfitz, Locke Lamora and Benmage are probtown, along with RC. I think IAI is town for reasons I said earlier. I had a townread of KScope, but no more, he's solidly null. I still think Furcolow is scummy, but I think Baby Spice is worse.

Easy mislynches on VI's.

I'm a bit behind on this game, but based on a quick glance through Percy's ISO, it's quite clear he's a good candidate for Dry-fit's buddy. The first time he mentions him, he includes him in his scumreads with no other explanation, which I find to be a good tell. He then moves from saying he's scummy but he prefers his own wagons more to casting doubt on the wagon because of the people on it. There are several attempts to derail the wagon without ever really making an extensive effort to analyse it or Dry-fit's play.

Vote: Percy

Could also go for a Nikanor lynch. Jason is clearly town.

QFT

Let's lynch either Percy or Redcoyote before thursday, so we don't waste this time.

RC aint being lynched today. Sorry. Too many opposed.

Earlier in the day I had a townread of mongoose, largely gut-based. But there was some weirdness that I pointed out here. And while everyone is piling on me, how about this quote from mongoose:

I dont see anything wrong with dryfit to be honest. I think everything he has said can be justified. On the other hand, redcoyote's posts aren't really that great. There is alot of irrelevant and silly stuff, along with some questionable points (like his votes on sotty and nikanor, I didn't quite catch the reason for those). However there has been alot of stuff I think is townie behavior as well. While I think that the judgment of older, better players than me shouldn't be disregarded, i still think that the case on furcolow is stronger, so I keep my vote there

Add in Baby Spice's slip, her strange Benmage case post-flip (and pre-flip, tbh) and her present lurking through Phase 2, and I think we've got a great candidate for Dry-fit's partner.

Really. I, who made the dryfit lynch a reality, see BS as a massive VI. Noone would be so blatant to accuse me. You're pushing an obvious mislynch on an easy VI, and it aint flying today chief. You hang.

Let's lynch Percy today and take a closer look at RedCoyote tomorrow.

This.

I haven't been able to give this game or even the site the attention I'd like to.

That said Percy hangs today.
-Attacks easy targets.
-Inconsistent on stances regarding myself and others in an attempt to undermine me.

Those who you need to lynch tomorrow after I die:
-Nikanor, Mina

Those you don't want here in lylo:
-BS
-Furc
^In that order

Those almost as confirmed town as I:
-Locke
-jason
-havingfitz
^In that order

******** I think Zach iso 13/14 post counts are very important

The scum aren't on the Dry-fit wagon because bussing at that time would not be opportunistic, however they are likely on the other lead wagons.

Key notes there are: Mina, Percy,

Dryfit

, and Nikanor...but also note to not ignore, Kscope, Elmo, and Furc.

[Baby Spice]

Sorry about being absent. Struggling to keep up with the Stars Aligned monster

Will hopefully catch up later today.

[Elmo]

One's a small, closed, mostly hand-picked game with quite a few power roles, and the other is a large, mountainous, mostly open sign ups game. I don't think I'm being different. I think the environments are probably as different as two games could be.

One in which you were a vanilla townie, attacked a bunch of people and then locked onto me for the rest of the game, the other in which you vaguely mumbled you kinda sorta didn't like some people, made a few ingratiating comments, and basically sat back waiting for a wagon to be provided. None of that is explained by a difference in setup, not least because you couldn't have known how many power roles were in the first game. The only differences are that you don't have to worry about accidentally running up a power role, which should make you

more

aggressive, or the number of people in the game, which should make it easier to attack someone because you have more potential targets.

I don't see why at all. Your reasoning is completely independent from my opinions, which you still haven't given. You have just stated "Fur did X" and implied it's scummy without explaining why. Very probably we have different premises, which is best dealt with by stating yours.

I dispute that. He's being far too emotional, contrived, and flighty.

Furcolow is absolutely all over the place. Not just in the above post, but throughout this entire game. He's on full panic mode now and letting every emotion go that he can. He's a complete loose cannon. If you haven't paid as much attention to his posts throughout this game, you owe it to yourself to check him out in isolation. If he's town, he's too weak-willed and emotional. Every time I've looked the other way when someone has tried to appease everyone he could, I've regretted it. In general I've found that scum are more likely to placate in a manner similar to Fur.

When someone is as unprincipled as Fur is, I've found it to be a potential indicator of scum. I'm not just implying here, and I backed my rhetoric up with a vote.

Are you going to make any attempt to answer my question? Let's make a list of things you've actually said here.

# Fur is "emotional"
# Fur is "contrived"
# Fur is "flighty"
# Fur is "all over the place" through the game
# Fur is "on full panic mode"
# Fur is "a loose cannon"
# If Fur is town, he's "too weak-will and emotional"
# Fur is unprincipled, which is a potential indicator of scum
---
# Scum are more likely to placate people in the way Fur did

The first problem is what I said; how does being "a loose cannon" make him suspicious? I have no idea. Another related problem is: What does "a loose cannon" even mean? I have no idea. Again, "Furc is X, so Furc is scum" without any explanation why X makes him more likely to be scum. I can say Furc is wearing a hat, so Furc is scum, or Furc is "twitchy" (or some other nigh-meaningless word), so Furc is scum, and anyone reading has no way to call me on my complete bullshit unless I'm forced to outline some actual reasoning, which is what you're abjectly failing to do right now. The last item is about the only one that doesn't fit this pattern, and while it's acceptable it's also pretty difficult to falsify (or support); I think I see the logic behind it, but I don't reeeally buy into it, and without examples it's not really decidable one way or the other.

What does being weak-willed have to do with anything? I mean, that's a personal quality, it's not like people have a personality transplant based on alignment; it's like saying he's scum because he's tall, or something, it's approaching bizarre. In the absence of any reasoning, and with the exception of being contrived - which you're presented no evidence for that I've seen - I'd say the precise opposite, that all of the list qualities are null and

your case sucks

. This case being the basis for the "alternative wagon" to Dry-Fit that you've explicitly argued for.

I'm booooored, I lost interest a while ago. I might flake, we'll see.

[Baby Spice]

IaI

#437. I started with my most likely scumdidate.

BabySpice.. you are hellbent on pushing a scumslip on me... how do you respond to accusations of a scumslip from yourself?

When people are that obvtown, why not call them town? and Jason, not pushing a scumslip. Pushing a really weird reaction.
Kind of weird though that you have claimed lack of interaction with a read as a scumtell for both myself and Percy. I'll give you a hint. I question/pressure scum (That's you), not town. That's why I haven't been questioning/pressuring Percy.

Also loving how Benmage calls himself confirmed town, and Hannity by the looks, but you don't seem to question them.

what is your case on [Benmage]

Scummy idea that can only help scum is scummy. beating on the player who prooved it scummy is scummy. Ergo ...

Wishy washy language is wishy washy.

(That means I find it scummy btw)

Wishy washy language comment is just so much ffttt! if it's scummy I call it scummy. If it's hinky I call it hinky. Hinky =/= scummy. (But it may be)
I wonder how you can make that wishy washy language comment if you have been reading what I've been saying.

You should probably know I am married to the mod,

boo hiss, unfair advantage

and her present lurking through Phase 2,

It's keeping up with your bloody game that's killing my time Percy!

Did you notice that I was on V/LA for a week

Actually, no I don't think I did.

Jason #492. Have a look at that game. have a look at me complaining about lack of time in that monster 85+page post fest. SERIOUSLY, HAVE A LOOK.

[Nikanor]

Hi guys, I'm sorry for waiting so long to do this, but I have to replace out. I just don't have the time to read through all of these walls that you're posting. I thought I could make it work, but I can't.

Anyway, my final thoughts:
Sotty and Baby Spice are scum. Lynch one of those two today.
Locke, Elmo and Mina are town. Don't lynch them ever.
I think that RC is probably town, and I get gut town vibes from Percy.
I am kind of iffy on jason, but his reaction to the Dry-Fit lynch did look pretty legit.

Bye everyone, and I hope that we can play together again when I'm not so damned busy.

[RedCoyote]

One in which you were a vanilla townie, attacked a bunch of people and then locked onto me for the rest of the game, the other in which you vaguely mumbled you kinda sorta didn't like some people, made a few ingratiating comments, and basically sat back waiting for a wagon to be provided. None of that is explained by a difference in setup, not least because you couldn't have known how many power roles were in the first game.

I thought I saw an early Sotty slip, but I had missed a post. Percy voted without giving a reason, but I ultimately had a different reason anyway. Regardless, that wasn't "provided". Then the jason wagon wasn't "provided". Nikanor was voting jason for completely unrelated reasons, and you pointed out something that I had also noticed. You didn't pursue, so I effectively led that attack. Later, jason wasn't trying very hard to push Fur. He made a few comments in his original vote, then left it there for several pages without mentioning it. I never referenced jason in my Fur vote either, so that was hardly "provided". Benmage's Percy vote here in the second phase was, again, a vote without reason. If anything Benmage's vote was just an extension of his bias attitude toward Percy throughout the game. I easily took ownership of this wagon, far from having it "provided" for me. If your underlying point here is that I'm not being aggressive enough, then I think you need to look over the evidence again. If your point is that I'm not the first official vote on these wagons, then you're being unreasonable.

If your hesitation on my case against Fur is simply because I didn't lay out quotes for you, then that's just a breakdown in communication. One needs only look at Fur's voting record, contradicting scumlists, and petulant behavior. I obviously have no inclination to do this for you or the game as a whole at the moment, but I'll keep it in mind tomorrow. I'd probably go as far as to say that you'd be the only player here that hasn't picked up on it (if someone else in the game has said they value Fur's play and/or they have trouble understanding why someone would be put off by his play, then I'll stand corrected). Either that or you're just deliberately giving me a hard time about it. It could very well be the latter though, because I do not think our playstyles or personalities mesh together very well at all.

[Furcolow]

was my vote on dry-fit at L-2 yes or no

[Furcolow]

actually, let me rephrase
did i vote to kill dryfit? yes or no?
anyone want to see the last time i bussed?
it didn't go well for me
i'll provide it.

[Furcolow]

also, redcoyote, just because i do not post giant wall of worthless text does not make me a bad player
it does not make me weak willed, and you know that i am strong willed, or else you wouldn't have tried to implicate a lie with me being town when you yourself know that it isn't because you are a part of the informed minority.

benmage is being his typical VI self, not reading the fucking game, and needs to replace out.
He believes his word is God, just because he got a vote right for once, and that he is "confirmed". I agree he is likely town, but I am not going to simply proxy my vote to BenMage. He is very wrong about RedCoyote here.

I was suspicious of both RC and DF, I am sticking with RC, and I urge you all to do so as well. Percy had a very pro-town post that I just can't get over.

[jasonT1981]

BS... you keep saying I am scum, fair enough I am not even going to try and pursuade you otherwise, point is you are still pushing a BS case that a confirmed scum was pushing.

HOWEVER I take great issue with you once again declaring Percy Obivious town.. I don't give a damn about an 85 page monster.. I really don't Im in 3 games and modding one and can still find time. What I care about is you declaring someone obivious town and YET TO HAVE BACKED UP WITH ANY SOLID SHRED OF EVEDIENCE that he is town.

[jasonT1981]

not going to be about the rest of the day.. I have a race tonight as well as a soccer game.

[Zachrulez]

Thor665 replaces for Nikanor. Thanks Thor665!