Stars Aligned III - The Tenth Day

[Andrius]

I am so close to replacing out of this game, the amount of people that pride themselves on being good players and are actually asshats who are dumber than rocks are pissing me off.

Furcolow I'm looking specifically in your direction.

Fixed.

[Benmage]

Sea, breathe. I'm working on it.

[Seacore]

I am so close to replacing out of this game, the amount of people that pride themselves on being good players and are actually asshats who are dumber than rocks are pissing me off.

Furcolow I'm looking specifically in your direction.

Fixed.

Oh no, I've fixed this. I don't read his posts.

[Andrius]

I am so close to replacing out of this game, the amount of people that pride themselves on being good players and are actually asshats who are dumber than rocks are pissing me off.

Furcolow I'm looking specifically in your direction.

Fixed.

Oh no, I've fixed this. I don't read his posts.

I force myself to do that too. But it doesn't always work.

[xvart]

It explains Fatehate/fatestalk/fatelynch.
Why try and claim a kill when he can claim to have stalked the lynched player, or claimed to have changed his mind.

Far fetched but it does explain a lot.

It also begs the question if we were about lynch the person Benmage was going to stalk would he say anything?

Can we lynch Baby Spice today? That would be exciting.

Actually, I'm not opposed to this action, but I would be much more supportive once RC flips and if he flips Cult.

I looked at the OP and I think that everyday we should be claiming if we are bloody or not. Here's why: The only ways you can get bloody are by being resuscitated from a kill successfully, trying to murder a player, or trying to kill a player in the ritual. The only way that a townie can get bloody is if somebody tried to kill them, and that's something we should be claiming. If we claim this everyday, and an investigator with a forensic kit discovers that somebody is bloody that wasn't supposed to be actually was, then that means they are either a cultist or a murderer. This is very important information. So, we should be claiming if we are bloody, but that is basically just claiming that you had been successfully resuscitated. Learning who was successfully resuscitated from a kill is information that doesn't help scum that much, because it is information that they already know (if cult's target was protected they'd know about it, and I believe cult should know who is getting murdered based on who heard noise).

I agree with claiming if we are bloody or not. Even so, if the Cult/Murderer are forced to be claimed bloody at the risk of being outted by someone investigating him/her, then they have to concoct some fabricated story that will hopefully catch up with them some point down the line.

I looked at the OP and I think that everyday we should be claiming if we are bloody or not. Here's why: The only ways you can get bloody are by being resuscitated from a kill successfully, trying to murder a player, or trying to kill a player in the ritual. The only way that a townie can get bloody is if somebody tried to kill them, and that's something we should be claiming. If we claim this everyday, and an investigator with a forensic kit discovers that somebody is bloody that wasn't supposed to be actually was, then that means they are either a cultist or a murderer. This is very important information. So, we should be claiming if we are bloody, but that is basically just claiming that you had been successfully resuscitated. Learning who was successfully resuscitated from a kill is information that doesn't help scum that much, because it is information that they already know (if cult's target was protected they'd know about it, and I believe cult should know who is getting murdered based on who heard noise).

I agree with claiming if we are bloody or not. Even so, if the Cult/Murderer are forced to be claimed bloody at the risk of being outted by someone investigating him/her, then they have to concoct some fabricated story that will hopefully catch up with them some point down the line.

MoI's attacks on Furc are MoI's attempts to

look

like he's scumhunting. Seriously, his attacks are HORRIBLE and his justifications are just as bad.

What about my attacks on Furcolow? Were my reasonings better than MoIs?

I like Wickeds case on Kunkstar, and would switch to that wagon accordingly.

vote: moi

policy lynch
too tough to read him

What's the policy?

Am I the only one who finds Xvart and El Goos targeting each other slightly hinky. Especially with El G choosing to look for something that couldn't be there.

Nope, that's definitely odd. And for xvart, a rather unlucky coincidence, considering his N0 action was to target someone also targeted by Baby Spice.

Xvart's explanation for his Goo action is interesting, but by the end of D1, I'm pretty sure that Furcolow's story was well accepted. Moreover, given that there had already been a mod clarification that pretty much spelt out what would happen in Furcolow's case, I don't know what additional proof you were looking for. So it's difficult to see exactly how your action benefited the town.

Warding people on N0 and N1 is fine; but the unique circumstances of your actions are starting to cause me puzzlement and dismay.

Xvart: Do you think that anyone else was likely to have been targeting El Goosuki last night?

Well, you may be right that it didn't benefit the town, but it benefited me; like I said, it cleared it up for me so I could move on, and if you've played with me before you would know that I have a terrible way of holding on to things forever and tunneling. Also like I said, my original plan was to change my action, but after I got a response from VI I decided that might be considered unethical and gaming the system, which I didn't want to do.

As for your question, I don't know if anyone else would be targeting El Goosuki last night. From my perspective now, maybe a fellow Cultist warding to protect against a Stalker.

Caught up through 87. More later; but I want to add that I'm going to be super disappointed if El Goosuki loses votes while they continue to lurk and not read and not play.

xvart.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Nice way to not answer the question. It sounds like you're saying you don't want to stop him from killing, but do you think Benmage SHOULD kill tonight, and why?

The obvious answer is that Benmage should not kill.

1. The odds that he hits Cult, despite his bravado, are slight.
2. Keeping the Town alive pool as big as possible until we get some actual alignment flips to work with for relational tells will aid the Town long term.
3. The precious free Vig bite Investigators get should be saved until midgame.

My question to you – what purpose do you have asking the question. It’s not going to tell you one bit about my or anyone else’s alignment.

See, the problem here is that you deny 1 and 2 while admitting to them at the same time... that's spinning my brain around in circles.

Also, saying you're doing things to avoid being killed early amounts to admitting that you're playing scummy. You can't say that people don't have legitimate points on you when this is your defense for those actions.

Denying they are any sort of indication of scum-tells doesn’t mean I haven’t been purposely abrasive. If abrasiveness was a scum-tell Fate, Benmage, Sociopath and a host of others would have to be Mafia EVERY game. Making myself disliked for my abrasivness (and creating the air of future lynchability) hardly is commiting scummy actions.

Oh! It's your playstyle! Uhhh... no. That's not an acceptable reason to not be scumhunting.

Yet I am scum-hunting. I admitted it would be HAMPERED until relational tells appeared. You are specifically ignoring what was said and repeating the falsehood.

FACT – I questioned and put together a case on ReaperCharlie. You and others can cry all you want about it not being scum-hunting. It’s as much scum-hunting as ANYONE in the game has done.

Which is it?

Are your purposely being dense and attempting to assert some sort of contradiction here?

IN GENERAL lurking isn’t a scum-tell for everyone. However, in the case of a HYDRA WITH THREE PLAYERS WHO AREN’T IDIOTS the amount of lurking being done by El Goo leads me to believe they might well be scum. Especially when at least 1 of those heads has a history of laying low when scum.

In fact any of the Hydras in this game that are having a hard time keeping pace while single players are easily able to should be considered suspect.

What are you trying to say here? Are you actively susicious of me, or just don't find me obv-Town? If it's the latter, but you currently don't suspect me, why write this at all? If you do suspect me, why did you write this not as a case but as an admonition to anyone who finds me Townish? In either case I don't see a good reason for this to be formulated the way this is.

Nice. You pop up suddenly when your name appears in a less than positive manner. And you don’t address the issues I addressed. I’ve been hammered for being only about self-preservation and here’s a perfect example. No comments about issues not aimed directly at you or scum-hunting?

You are definitely not obv-Town.

As for the rest of the questions? Sorry, you blew off my question regarding El Goo not once but twice. I don’t know why you should expect me to do you the courtesy you didn’t extend.

MoI, do you really think I'm scum? Why are you voting for me? Do you even have a case?

You don’t have a case on me. Why should I need one on you? Why so touchy about a single vote?

Bro-drius, I know you're busy and all but can you please grace us with your presence? Your last post was on Nov 4. I'll ask you these questions to help you ease back into the game:

Yeah, after he’s been called out for lurking making his transition back into the game easy is so nice of you. And you very well know he had plenty of time to SPAM the Dead QT in LOTR Mafia so he had time to post here. But please, make excuses for the player who you logically should have no idea of his alignment.

Well, the overlap isn't just between two investigators - as you say, that's statistically likely (assuming randomness). However, the likelihood of three actions targeting the same player (cult, npau, Feysal) is significantly smaller, and no-one's pointed to any standout qualities of Wicked that might attract these actions, over, say, VP Baltar or xvart. However, there's a limited field, and potentially a fair few kits, so I haven't entirely disregarded the possibility of a coincidence; I'm just skeptical at this point. I think it's at least as good an indicator as any of the behavioural reads people are throwing around.

I think the scepticism is healthy. And you are correct that the behavioral tells being presented are very weak at this stage. I guess I’m not willing to focus my attention directly based on what could be happenstance. This incidence goes in my back pocket for future relational assessment of Feysal and NoPoint.

If you don't think Furc is of any use to the town, why didn't you just stalk him and vig him out? Confirming your status as an investigator in the process.
If you don't scum hunt well before flips are revealed, why not keep a bit quieter and wait for them?
If you wanted to dribble scum to avoid being a NK, why do so in such an abrasive fashion? Especially in a game with so much potential for "doctor" saves for those who manage to get obv/confirmed town status.

Stalking and killing someone right out of the box is absurdly Anti-Town. The one free bite at the Vig every investigator had should be saved for the strategic time later in the game.

I said my abilities were hampered before flips not that I’m an idiot. I can point to any number of games where I nailed and lynched scum Day 1. Most of those coincide with me being killed early. Once Reaper’s alignment is known we can assess the quality of my Day 1 case.

The potential for Doc saves are highly overrated, especially if you consider that anyone using a Rez kit can’t be rezzed. And I’ve died many a game which had Docs while being ObvTown. There are enough ‘name’ players in the game that banking on protection is a dumb move.

What in the name of everything holy is this?

"I'm scummy on PURPOSE, yo" is garbage. In THIS setup with no PR's I have no words.

Spare me. You’ve made a career here of being obtuse and annoying as a tactic to limit your perceived obv-Town status.

MoI ditches the ElG wagon when it started taking off, ElG votes MoI but then removes the vote.

So you are saying, as scum-buddies, that the smart play would be to abandon each other’s wagon as the were built?

And wouldn’t I have to have voted for El Goo at any point today to have ‘abandoned the wagon’? Because I didn't vote for them today.

This unfortunately is applying to the MoI case right now. I respect him as a really good player, so I'm instantly more suspicious of him than I am of others. To complicate the situation, players like Oj, VP Baltar, and sotty have all said that he's scummy. But, I still feel guilty when I think about voting him because I don't want him to die if I'm wrong. I do see his scumminess, but I'm just less comfortable voting him than I am other players.

I have to ask Nico – where does your impression of my ability come from? We’ve never (unless I’m having a senior moment right now) played a game together and I’ve never been modded by you.

I’m going to say to you what I said to Mina after Clash of Kings – never let a players reputation affect your willingness to vote when you think someone is scummy. Too often people with reps get a pass because ‘Player Y is so awesome and if I voted him and was wrong it would be a huge mistake’. And they shouldn’t. It’s one of my major peeves about the culture here on MS (or part of it, I also despise some of the cronying that goes on in certain circles).

[Seacore]

Apologies MoI, I really thought you had voted for ElG earlier in the day and moved from there to Vas instead of going straight there. My bad.
I still don't like your apparent deliberate abrasiveness, that doesn't strike me as something MoI-town, but your explanation has lessened my scum read of you.

People, lets get ElG's wagon to -1 or -2 and see if we can get a response.

[Percy]

Vote Count

*whisper whisper*

MagnaofIllusion - 6

(Trilobite, VP Baltar, Benmage, VasudeVa, hitogoroshi, Furcolow)

El Goosuki - 5

(Seacore, SpyreX, kunkstar7, Wraith, xvart,

Nicodemus

,

AurorusVox

)

kunkstar7 - 5

(totallynotmafia, Wickedestjr, Furpants_Tom, nopointinactingup, Nicodemus)

Wraith - 3

(Plum, manho, AurorusVox)

Baby Spice - 1

(Triglav)

VasudeVa - 1

(MagnaofIllusion)

Not Voting - 4 (Andrius, Baby Spice, Feysal, El Goosuki)

Fate

is currently

Soulless

. The following

10

players wish to

Dispatch Fate

: (VP Baltar, kunkstar7, MagnaofIllusion, Seacore, nopointinactingup, Trilobite, manho, Wickedestjr, Baby Spice, Benmage)

@Mod: Do cult lose their fetishes on a rezzed kill attempt?

No.

The deadline for

Day 2

is 10:30am, Wednesday November 24th default site time.

With 25 alive, 13 votes secures a Lynch/Dispatch.

[Plum]

Nice. You pop up suddenly when your name appears in a less than positive manner. And you don’t address the issues I addressed. I’ve been hammered for being only about self-preservation and here’s a perfect example. No comments about issues not aimed directly at you or scum-hunting?

You are definitely not obv-Town.

As for the rest of the questions? Sorry, you blew off my question regarding El Goo not once but twice. I don’t know why you should expect me to do you the courtesy you didn’t extend.

Yeah I pop up a bit more when my name is called out, and I don't feel the need to hide it. In such a large game, it tends to stand out and is often what I am most interested in responding to by the very fact of human narcissism.

On the contrary, my response was not aimed at self-preservation. Please. Whether or not people find me obvtown, a lynch or a Town-directed Murder on me is not on my radar at the moment (you think it is?), whatever you say about me. I certainly did have comments about issues not aimed directly at me/my scumhunting. Just because it's you talking about me doesn't mean I can't use your comments in a different context: namely, evaluating

your

relative scumminess.

I'm happy to report that your response is extremely scummy. "You are definitely not obv-Town" is a mindless, rhetorical repetition of something which I earlier implied to be a scummy statement. No one had been discussing my relative obvtownness of lack thereof to the best of my knowledge; if you're neutral on someone who's not being lauded as obvtown by everyone you don't spend so much time and effort trying to discredit the read. You don't make a case on me being likely scum, you just try to stir the pot and see if you can get any steam to boil up.

I certainly have scumhunted today; your implication that haven't is patently misleading and scummily so. I made a case on Wraith, I discussed a possible Town tactic with SpyreX in context of my ongoing evaluation of his relative scumminess (conclusion: Bit scummier than I'd thought previously, given the asking me to do it and then ignoring what I gave him for a bit; smacked somewhat of making a show of looking busy and trying to find strategies while not actually invested in the process). I've argued against lynches I thought were completely suboptimal (Benmage).

Frankly I don't see any Town motivation for the manner in which you suspected me. Had you made a case and made it clear I was one of your top suspects? We'd have a disagreement. Had you made a list of who's how scummy and put me in between scum and neutral, fine. Make a point of saying out of nowhere that I'm not obvtown when that has not been a factor in the discussion, as far as I can see, at all? You're just trying to muddy the waters. The holier-than-thou hypocritical tone of 'you blew off my questions so why should you expect me to answer yours' is at the very least as bad as what I've done there. I didn't mention the questions (frankly they slipped my mind as I skimmed and I didn't even remember what they were referring to, but from an uninformed perspective it's possible to think I blew them off on purpose and invited accusations over something trivial, which would imply I'm stupid, hut whatever). You noticed the questions but thought they were beneath you.

I'll humor your question, assuming this is it:

Nice thinking. Except for the fact, of course, that on ANY SUCCESSIVE NIGHT that El Goo hears a noise and is not warded a Fetish could be created. So once El Goo hears Noise and is not warded (or multiple wards claims are made) your theory goes Kablooie. So the Cult would have to be, I don’t know, patient enough to wait a few days and then could throw doubt on multiple Ward claims or exploit an unwarded noise. Or perhaps El Goo could be Cult. Glad you didn’t factor that into your BRILLIANT explanation. Any reason why that possibility slipped your mind?

Yeah, because I meant it to be implied: That is, it runs the risk of ElGoos being Warded every Night by a single specific player by Town decision or no one claiming Ward on ElGoos. And I think that when I said "in which case Furc just threw away his team's ability to off El Goosuki" I implied that this theory of scum-Furc was being based on ElGoos not being scum with him, and I don't think that's problematic because if scum were to gambit that recklessly they would be doing half their work for us. So, other factors? Yes. A scum-gambit of any worth with loopholes not easily closed or watched over by Town? Nope. I guess that's why it slipped my mind. Nice sarcasm though. Have you earned your merit badge yet?

UNVOTE:

VOTE: MagnaofIllusion

*cue accusations of OMGUS*

[Seacore]

Could everybody not voting ElG please state why you don't believe they are scummy, when even they have admitted that they'd vote for themselves due to their behaviour?

[Plum]

I don't not believe ElGoos is somewhat scummy and a decent lynch (that Night Action choice doesn't quite mkae it to the level of 'forgivable'). I'm somewhat more interested in other veins of scumhunting for varied reasons (other factors which could lead to this level of interest in the game, for example, might apply to ElGoos, but more importantly other players have struck me as scummier, even granting lurking as a scumtell given the tri-headed hydra).

[Furpants_Tom]

Because it's such bizzare play that it might just be genuine?

Nah, everything I said yesterday about Bowser is true of El G, only without a halfway decent excuse. He's scummy, the only real reason he didn't make my list before is that I didn't trust the wagon. Not for any particlar reason, just habit.

[nopointinactingup]

@Trilobyte: Cuz I like following confirmed town better.
@Seacore: That's exactly why they aren't scummy.
@Magna: Stop spamming man =.=. Your mini game posts were already enough to blurry my vision.

[VasudeVa]

You don’t have a case on me. Why should I need one on you? Why so touchy about a single vote?

Whuutt? *face palm*. I get it now though. You're obviously projecting! You're saying that the reason I'm tunneling on you is because you wounded my pride...when in reality,

your

pride is wounded because a 'subpar' player like me got a big wagon on you. And you are calling my reasons on voting you non-existent...because

your

reasons for voting me are non-existent! This is just classic psychology.

And no, that's not even the slightest bit touchy. That's me trying to make certain that you are being genuine with your vote. You are not. Thank you for solidifying my scum read on you.

Yeah, after he’s been called out for lurking making his transition back into the game easy is so nice of you. And you very well know he had plenty of time to SPAM the Dead QT in LOTR Mafia so he had time to post here. But please, make excuses for the player who you logically should have no idea of his alignment.

Andy is my friend. And I don't mind helping him out if he's struggling. I've noticed that his sitewide activity has dropped, and I empathize because I've gone through that too. Besides, I don't even have a proper read on him yet and he needed to post. What's wrong here?

What the hell are you even trying to say here? I'm cult buddying with Andy? Or I'm cultists with Andy?

---

3. Because you were avoiding me, and you were not playing like your town self. It looked like Popularity Mafia over any other game I've seen you as town, so I was suspicious of you. But you did what you do best as town and- unless I'm horribly mistake, you're Investigator. (Unless you're going Murderer. *shudders*)

With the post explosions, it was easy to get lost. Things have calmed down now though, so I can easily focus. How do you compare my play here and my play in LOTR?

4. RC needs to go. "And away he goes; PRECIOUS WE ARE FREE!!" Fate needs to go too; if we have a COA to make sure all the graves are robbed then I have no problems Dispatching Fate. But if we can't handle 4 grave robbers and/or no one is willing then we'll have to delay Dispatching Fate until tomorrow.

Any guesses as to what they'll flip?

[VasudeVa]

Could everybody not voting ElG please state why you don't believe they are scummy, when even they have admitted that they'd vote for themselves due to their behaviour?

I'd rather lynch potentially harmful real scum than harmless lurking possible scum, thx.

[Andrius]

With the post explosions, it was easy to get lost. Things have calmed down now though, so I can easily focus. How do you compare my play here and my play in LOTR?

You're probably town. I have a good read on you, and despite the original vote on you D1, I feel like you're doing well. Now, the only thing that I'm not taking into account is you going Murderer, but I can't see you stalking Lost Butterfly N0 so.

Fate will probably flip town. I'm 85% sure of this.
RC was a scum read, so I'm looking forward to him flipping Cult.

[AurorusVox]

MoI: what's your position on letting Benmage kill tonight and why?

I’m not willing to lynch him at this stage because the chance he is Cult goes to zero with a successful kill tonight. And lynching him is the only thing Town can do to ‘not let’ Benmage kill. He will not respond to any other stimulus. So any discussion outside of whether to lynch him is pointless.

Nice way to not answer the question. It sounds like you're saying you don't want to stop him from killing, but do you think Benmage SHOULD kill tonight, and why?

The obvious answer is that Benmage should not kill.

1. The odds that he hits Cult, despite his bravado, are slight.
2. Keeping the Town alive pool as big as possible until we get some actual alignment flips to work with for relational tells will aid the Town long term.
3. The precious free Vig bite Investigators get should be saved until midgame.

My question to you – what purpose do you have asking the question. It’s not going to tell you one bit about my or anyone else’s alignment.

You don't think he should kill - and you have a bunch of good reasons for Benmage to NOT kill...yet you're not at all interested in lynching him today? You've already admitted that lynching Ben is the only way to stop him from murdering. How can you justify NOT voting for him then?

In fact, in that first post, you even suggested you didn't want to lynch him

because

he could clear himself with a successful kill. Which is almost an invitation for him TO kill. Effectively you've said "I won't lynch him because he can (and should) kill tonight"

And so here is my purpose: highlighting your hypocrisy between what you want people to think about you, and what you actually do. You logically ought to have been on the Ben wagon at some point today. Instead you have a vote on VV? Yeah.

[VasudeVa]

Cool Story AV. Now Vote for MoI.

[AurorusVox]

@VV: waiting on my Wraith questions to pan out before I think about moving my vote.

@SeaCore; El G is always going to be El G. The reasons for voting them are always going to be the same. I think it's more useful to look at others whilst remaining "happy to vote El G" because if people know your vote is basically static on El G, then when you question them, you lose all pressure behind your questions.

[VasudeVa]

Wraith is Town. I've already explained this. rewq's ISO #1 is the paragon of TownTells. Srsly.

[Furpants_Tom]

And so here is my purpose: highlighting your hypocrisy between what you want people to think about you, and what you actually do. You logically ought to have been on the Ben wagon at some point today. Instead you have a vote on VV? Yeah.

Oh come on, this is definitely tunnelling. He's being entirely consistent here. He says that Ben should not kill under any circumstances. But he also says that the cost of the only action we can take to stop him (using our lynch to kill a near-certain townie) is too high. While I think we should have at least made a credible threat, I don't see any hypocrisy in his position whatsoever, and I think you're actually discrediting the MoI case by attempting such an obvious distortion.

[AurorusVox]

Furpants, I'd like for you to let MoI answer his own questions thanks.

[Seacore]

Furpants, I'd like for you to let MoI answer his own questions thanks.

No AV, terrible posts should be pointed out by whoever sees them

[Wraith]

@AV: Now you're just blowing specific words and phrases in my posts out of proportion. Stop nitpicking and find some actual dirt.

[AurorusVox]

Furpants, I'd like for you to let MoI answer his own questions thanks.

No AV, terrible posts should be pointed out by whoever sees them

Wait for fucking MoI to respond and you'll see it's not a terrible post. God.