Zachtown in the mountains (Game over TOWN WINS!)

[Zachrulez]

3rd Vote Count of D2 P1

Percy - 4 (I Am Innocent, KaleiÐoscøpe, JasonT1981, Benmage)
Lrdwhyt - 4 (Sotty7, Mina, Locke Lamora, Baby Spice)
Baby Spice - 2 (Percy, Thor665)
Benmage -1 (Furcolow)

Not Voting: (Elmo, Lrdwhyt)

If I made any mistakes please politely point them out and I will correct them.

Deadline for Day 2 is Monday, December 6 at 8am CST

With 13 alive it's 7 to lynch.

[Furcolow]

I am honestly happy with a lynch of any of the 3 people who have votes on them other than benmage

unvote

[Furcolow]

i have a gut read on percy-town, though. if i didn't value benmage as a scumhunter so much, i wouldn't be O.K. with his lynch whatsoever

[Furcolow]

the thing we need to look at, though, as a town is who can help us if they are town. Percy could. Could lrdwhyt? I don't believe so.

VOTE: lrdwhyt
2 wagons are a go
houston, we have liftoff

[Elmo]

i just skimmed havingfitz to see who he was suspicious of (possibly why he died?)

He replaced Oso, who was quite strongly on the Dry-fit wagon; I believe that's why he was killed.

So if I can boil the Percy case down, perhaps oversimplifying it, it looks like

vote: RedCoyote

Scumreads

RedCoyote
Sotty7
Dry-fit
imkingdavid

As for Dry-Fit, I don't like his votes on Oso or on Jason, but I like my wagons better.

and subsequently voting Benmage and Fur. Don't really feel like he's presented a thorough defence yet.

Percy, maybe I missed it, but can you elaborate on:
# Why you originally put Dry-fit on the scum list
# Why you preferred the other wagons (Red, Benmage, Furcolow, maybe others I missed) to Dry
# The interaction between your read of Benmage and Dry's wagon (and timing)
# Why specifically you say you're "nowhere near sold on the Dry-fit case" in #389?

I'm really struggling with rereading benmage's posts (and there's quite a few by this point); if someone who agrees with him wants to restate the case, that would be pretty cool. I also don't understand why Percy didn't vote Red yesterday if he's scum; he'd only has one buddy to swing the wagon, so it seems rather risky.. I think it's extremely dubious as town, but I've seen far more town do it than scum.

I'm also kinda interested in lrdwhyt.. I do agree with Mina a bit, some of his posts seem too close to IIoA for comfort. Definitely, I would like to see more stated reasoning rather than just conclusions. I'm not sure whether to push this by itself, or file it under "wait and see".

"Mina...f-for me...make Benmage's avatar...Barney/Baby Bop X-rated fanart...AAAAAAAAAAAH DEAR GOD MY RIB CAGE!"

@Mod

: If I'm lynched please make these my actual last words plzkthx

Perfection.

[Thor665]

I edited the below posts to put certain thoughts in juxtaposition;

Do you believe scum can be VIs?

-Are you Smurfing kidding me? Of course. Stop wasting my time.

Is Baby Spice town somehow? Please educate me.

Yeah. Read point 2 of Percy's case against BS. That is why BS is obv-

VI

-town.

So VI = town.
But scum can be VI?

I don't see how Baby Spice playing poorly means she is scum - it doesn't follow. Poor players appear as both alignments. Is there something deeper to BS as town?

the thing we need to look at, though, as a town is who can help us if they are town. Percy could. Could lrdwhyt? I don't believe so.

Oh man, that's...wait, were you serious? Furc, buddy, you probably don't want that can of worms opened.
Vote him for being scummy, not for being potentially less helpful if scum.

Also;

Unvote: Baby Spice
Vote: Lrdwhyt

I'd still rather string up BS first, but Lrdwhyt is pretty solid scum potential too. Plus the Percy wagon is really not that good. (and IAI is on it)

[Locke Lamora]

This post was made after Dry-fit had already been lynched, so there's not really much point in saying that he was slightly scummy.

That was one of the posts I was referring to. There's another comment that refers to it before RC gets lynched, where you say:

RC's going after jason's slip doesn't make him look any better.

My point is, at the time of your first catch-up post where you talk about Jason, you say you've read the game. You've obviously familiarised yourself with Jason's posts, and you know enough to say that he's not that scummy and that there are better lynches out there, mentioning a DF vote without saying why you'd want to vote him. You don't vote, you don't focus on players who you think are scummy, and you don't comment on the players who jumped on Jason for supposedly making a slip - you just say it's 'dumb'. By the time we're nearing the RC lynch, this 'dumb' attack on Jason has turned into one of your reasons for backing his lynch. If that's your attitude to those who jumped on the slip, and DF was one of the most blatant attackers of Jason for this reason, why did you neither spend your first post looking at DF's play, nor vote him for doing something that you later state is scummy, yet still felt the need to include him in a brief passing note?

[Furcolow]

so you criticize me, then you sheep my vote thor?

[I Am Innocent]

Wow the second lynch in a row where the Percy wagon has stalled, his opposing wagon has gone to L-2, THOR VOTED TO MAKE IT L-1, leaving Percy the opportunity to hammer.

Someone please other than scum Thor unvote Lrdwht and get him to L-2. Feel free to keep your FOS on him.

I edited the below posts to put certain thoughts in juxtaposition;

Do you believe scum can be VIs?

-Are you Smurfing kidding me? Of course. Stop wasting my time.

Is Baby Spice town somehow? Please educate me.

Yeah. Read point 2 of Percy's case against BS. That is why BS is obv-

VI

-town.

So VI = town.
But scum can be VI?

I don't see how Baby Spice playing poorly means she is scum - it doesn't follow. Poor players appear as both alignments. Is there something deeper to BS as town?

the thing we need to look at, though, as a town is who can help us if they are town. Percy could. Could lrdwhyt? I don't believe so.

Oh man, that's...wait, were you serious? Furc, buddy, you probably don't want that can of worms opened.
Vote him for being scummy, not for being potentially less helpful if scum.

Also;

Unvote: Baby Spice
Vote: Lrdwhyt

I'd still rather string up BS first, but Lrdwhyt is pretty solid scum potential too. Plus the Percy wagon is really not that good. (and IAI is on it)

[Locke Lamora]

Unless Zach's VC is wrong, Lrdwhyt has 5 votes on him, IAI. That is L-2.

[Sotty7]

Benmage is still arrogant scum, nothing changed there. Seriously 'confirmed' in this game means you're dead and flipped. Claiming otherwise is scum trying to make themselves into a white knight and lead the town to a loss.

No.

Sotty, Mina. You both seem to be having a go at each other, but are both voting the same player. It makes me think that one of you is faking the discussion/arguement, which is scummy, whilst buddying up to them, which is also scummy. Or that one of you is bussing hard and trying to use the other as cover.

Vote Lrdwhyt

This paragraph and vote do not match with each other. I can't speak with Mina but I like to engage my suspects to figure out better if they are town or scum. Ftr, right now I am starting to lean towards Mina town which is an almost 180 from my position at the start of the day.

Your reasoning is bizarre and what makes it even worse is that you

join

the wagon myself and Mina are on. WTF?

Unvote, Vote: Babyspice

= = = = = =

Locke and Sotty are accurate in that Percy is the most logical lynch choice for today.

Yeah, I didn't say that.

I do support your call for a first lynch deadline though

= = = = =

Off-topic Mafia theory ramble that everyone can feel free to skip:

I get where you are coming from and I think we could probably talk about this a lot more, but it isn't really game relevant any more, for me anyway. I'll just say, I'm glad you are playing a more current game today and leave it at that.

Does "slap fight" have a negative connotation on this site that I'm missing? I just read it as a colourful synonym for "back-and-forth" or "kerfuffle" or or "clash"--which, um, was pretty much what your [BLANK] with IAI was. It seemed weird to me that you assumed he was mischaracterizing you.

In my mind, slap fight means a fake or staged fight that shows no real desired aggression from either side. Basically two people weakly failing to make it look like a fight. It would be something scum could say to subtly discredit a legit argument/discussion. When I called Red on this he backed away right away agreeing with my assessment that it wasn't a slap fight.

EBWOPreview: And hilariously, I may have given more fodder to Baby Spice's theory that Sotty and I are...um, I dunno. Are we distancing? Is one of us trying to appease the other by voting for her suspect so as to say, "See? See? Don't pressure me because I like your suspect!" And yet...because one of us must be scum, that absolutely makes Lrdwhyt even more likely to be scum because...because...I dunno, everyone knows scum are more likely to vote for their buddies over another viable wagon even when they can't afford to bus?

Okay, I should be happy that you're voting Lrdwhyt, but obvious badly-justified opportunistic wagon hop is obvious.

You should totally come join me on Babyspice now.

I'm deadly serious.

= = = = =

@Sotty7

: I think Benmage's rhetoric is indistinguishable from that employed by Hannity. However, I had no idea that calling someone Hannity is as bad as calling them a c*nt, so I'll ease off

I guess I just REALLY hate Hannity But thanks, I appreciate you not doing it anymore.

Sotty's case against Lrd is similar to mine. I agree with each point (especially the hesitance over voting DF), but I still think Baby Spice is worse.

Time to follow this up with a Babyspice vote I think.

= = = = = =

Okay so as I was reading I see the Lrd wagon got beefed up. I'm still happy with my switch to Baby at this point, her comments + vote were just... Wow.. Tipped her over the edge for me anyway.

I will happily lynch both Lrd and Babyspice today. Lrd's next post needs to contain some scum hunting and Baby needs to explain her Lrd vote. If people would rather Lrd goes first, I will move my vote back.

I still need to read Percy v ben in greater detail, but I'm too hungry to do that now. So hopefully I'll get to that later today.

Hooray for being caught up in all my games again!

[Elmo]

Your reasoning is bizarre and what makes it even worse is that you

join

the wagon myself and Mina are on. WTF?

How are you distinguishing between B.S. being scum and what Benmage thinks, i.e. a VI?

[Sotty7]

I think this game is suffering from VI fever, when really there are very few, if any VI's playing.

I see no reason to attribute Babyspice's actions as VI over scummy. But as I think your question over, I guess I have no hardened reasoning why. I find her moves scummy and not stupid.

[Thor665]

so you criticize me, then you sheep my vote thor?

I criticize your logic in a joking manner.
And I'm sheeping Mina (or actually just following suspicions I already stated - take your pick)

@IAI - Yes, I did get on a wagon that was a counterwagon to Percy - and I SAID I DID IT! Good catch.

Unvote, Vote: Babyspice

Do you have any idea how unfair it is to me to do this after IAI's newest theory about how I'm opportunistic vote hopping? I'm going to be listening to his terricases for an additional week now. That said...

Unvote: LrdWhyt
Vote: Babyspice

This should happen.

[Thor665]

How are you distinguishing between B.S. being scum and what Benmage thinks, i.e. a VI?

Also, now that Sotty has answered, I'd like to point out that Benmage's VI case does go something like this;

1. BS is doing horribly scummy things.
2. Only a complete idiot would do that as scum.
3. Ergo BS is obvious town.

Without addressing this.

1. BS is doing horribly scummy things.
2. She is horribly opportunistic scum.

Bad scum play happens, and Benmage has established he sees BS as a weak player without addressing why she can't be a weak scum player.

[Elmo]

It depends precisely what you mean by scummy. For example:

2. Her Benmage case, especially after the DF flip,

2. LOL This is why I have a town read on her.

HEY THOR!!!!

This is the reason why BS is both town and an easy mislynch. Noone but a huge dumbass would attack me after the DF lynch.

The point being that, if BS were scum, she would realise that she has no realistic chance of getting Benmage lynched, and wouldn't attack him; the only case in which she would do that is if she genuinely thought he was scum, where she has to

try

regardless or lose the game. As such, he doesn't think it's scummy.

Now, there may be other things that are "really" scummy, but I haven't seen them, albeit I haven't reread BS yet. (I have my own view, but it's uninteresting.)

[Thor665]

@Elmo - so attempting to lynch someone for whom there isn't a support base equates to town? I see your/Ben's logic, I just don't think it's as good as you do.

[KaleiÐoscøpe]

OHFFS,

CAN WE LYNCH PERCY AND HAVE A FRESH START?

[Elmo]

@Elmo - so attempting to lynch someone for whom there isn't a support base equates to town? I see your/Ben's logic, I just don't think it's as good as you do.

Well, it's not my logic; I don't wholly agree with it, but I do think that a lot of the reasons given to suspect BS are somewhat kneejerk-y, inthat they'd quite possibly still be true if she was town.

[Benmage]

BS is a weak player yes. But not weak enough that shed attack me as scum.

1. BS is horribly scummy. Sure.
2. Opportunistic. What? How? Huh? Attacking the most town player opportunistic??? No no no.

See a scum BS would just NK me. Why draw the negative attention.

[Thor665]

Well, it's not my logic; I don't wholly agree with it, but I do think that a lot of the reasons given to suspect BS are somewhat kneejerk-y, inthat they'd quite possibly still be true if she was town.

I can see that argument.

Do you see my points on Percy though? Other then getting personally offended at Benmage (shock) his great scumtell is not liking the Dry-fit wagon. That can come from town just as much as BS's actions could (I've certainly been the town idiot caught defending scum before). I feel that the Percy wagon is being confirmation biased into something bigger then it really is, the case just doesn't seem either that solid or large and all the people chirping on about "we need to lynch him to get reads on other people" are not exactly selling me on how obvious scum Percy is.

@Benmage - I know opportunism came from Mongoose, though I recall BS making some move I considered opportunistic. If you really have an issue with me using that word say so and I'll dig both points up with quotes/links.
The rest of your point seems to suggest that BS would be a better player as scum then as town - am I reading that wrong? Because if I'm not I still really disagree.

[Furcolow]

i'm so dumb i almost voted no lynch in a mountainous as a townie

[Furcolow]

do we really need a case
cant you all just follow my lead on a RL
that would be nice
lets try that

unvote

VOTE: IAI

[Benmage]

Noone would be that dumb as scum .... you can disagree, but whatever.

And yes link the opportunism of both please

[Benmage]

Noone will vote IAI he's second behind me in confirmed